Suggestions for a potential new stack

[BobDigital]

Hi all,
A little bit of background first.

I was on a "TRT dose" of test only for about 3 years prior to a very serious sports injury. During my recovery process, I was prescribed deca for enhanced collagen absorption to help the connective tissue heal and, subsequently, anavar to help accelerate regrowth of the surrounding musculature. Since then, I've been blasting twice per year and cruising on test only; the blasts started out with fairly low doses of test and deca and I've ramped up over 5 cycles to where I've remained for the last 2:

Weekly: 720mg test, 720mg primo, 360mg deca; daily: 50mg anavar

I've run a few cycles this way and had decent gains (+25 lbs on bench press over those 5 cycles), but not super spectacular - maybe due to my training age (I'm mid 40s and I've been lifting since age 18).

Here's my dilemma: Due to state laws, I'm losing my access to pharmaceutical grade deca and anavar. If I want to continue, I'll have to go the UGL route and I know that anavar is one of the most commonly faked orals.

So, I've been thinking this is an opportunity to change my stack. I've had nearly zero side effects from what I've run (only elevated lipids while on cycle), but just continuing to up doses doesn't necessarily feel like the right path. I'm very intrigued by tren ace, but also very leery due to horror stories I've heard.

Given all of the above... does anybody have suggestions about what I might try for my next cycle (compounds and doses)? I'd really like to see some more substantial size and strength increases in my major compound lifts than what I've gotten training like a maniac on test/primo/deca/var.

 

[Hyde]

Well, I’ve been cycling for 13 years now, blast and cruise for nearly 4, and in just 3 years of use you’ve managed to get your doses higher than the absolute most extreme I’ve ever done for any competition (something like 1,100 total mg oil, 50 Anadrol/day the last 2 weeks, and a few 50mg shots of Tren No Ester during the hardest peak weeks).

I think if you’re taking GRAMs per week and only added 25lbs to your bench in a few years, you either had a very maxed out bench or, more likely, your diet and training aren’t cutting it if that’s an important metric to you. If you aren’t eating for new size, you can’t expect it to come from nothing - the gear greatly enhances the production process, but it doesn’t provide the raw materials. In fact, if you had no appreciable surplus, you will grow faster on half the gear and an extra 500 calories over what you were doing.

Now I’m not saying you don’t train hard as hell. But that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s great for your goals either, just that you can bust your ass. But after many years of training, that’s not enough - not even with lots of juice. The RIGHT training plus enough food & rest become imperative. I’m not going to tell you what is right and wrong for training, only that looking at food and training are going to be the bigger answers it sounds like here. I would certainly not increase the doses, but otherwise run what you like.

Tren is not a great growth agent btw; it’s ideal for muscle preservation in a deficit. I think if you aren’t making many gains with all that Deca in there, switching to Tren isn’t going to be the difference.

Roidtest makes affordable single compound test kits (look for Oxandrolone “refill” test kits from them for Var). About half the Var I’ve ordeeed is just low dosed Dbol, so the test kits can save you a lot of wasted time with UGL stuff.

 

[BobDigital]

Well, I’ve been cycling for 13 years now, blast and cruise for nearly 4, and in just 3 years of use you’ve managed to get your doses higher than the absolute most extreme I’ve ever done for any competition (something like 1,100 total mg oil, 50 Anadrol/day the last 2 weeks, and a few 50mg shots of Tren No Ester during the hardest peak weeks).

I think if you’re taking GRAMs per week and only added 25lbs to your bench in a few years, you either had a very maxed out bench or, more likely, your diet and training aren’t cutting it if that’s an important metric to you. If you aren’t eating for new size, you can’t expect it to come from nothing - the gear greatly enhances the production process, but it doesn’t provide the raw materials. In fact, if you had no appreciable surplus, you will grow faster on half the gear and an extra 500 calories over what you were doing.

Now I’m not saying you don’t train hard as hell. But that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s great for your goals either, just that you can bust your ass. But after many years of training, that’s not enough - not even with lots of juice. The RIGHT training plus enough food & rest become imperative. I’m not going to tell you what is right and wrong for training, only that looking at food and training are going to be the bigger answers it sounds like here. I would certainly not increase the doses, but otherwise run what you like.

Tren is not a great growth agent btw; it’s ideal for muscle preservation in a deficit. I think if you aren’t making many gains with all that Deca in there, switching to Tren isn’t going to be the difference.

Roidtest makes affordable single compound test kits (look for Oxandrolone “refill” test kits from them for Var). About half the Var I’ve ordeeed is just low dosed Dbol, so the test kits can save you a lot of wasted time with UGL stuff.

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

I think you nailed it with respect to diet; I typically keep my calories only 100-200 over maintenance to avoid adding too much fat, so it seems like I can start there.

As you alluded to, deca was what I found to be the most effective for increasing brute strength versus any of the other compounds. I don't notice much from primo other than better estrogen control. I also don't notice much of a strength increase from anavar; rather, I notice that it gets me a lot leaner quicker while I'm able to sustain or even slightly increase on my lifts.

Actually, the reason I increased my test was to accommodate more deca. I'm really wary of "deca dick" and my understanding has been that maintaining a 2:1 ratio all but eliminates the chance of having issues with impotence. Have you been successful with a lower ratio?

Thanks again.

 

[Hyde]

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

I think you nailed it with respect to diet; I typically keep my calories only 100-200 over maintenance to avoid adding too much fat, so it seems like I can start there.

As you alluded to, deca was what I found to be the most effective for increasing brute strength versus any of the other compounds. I don't notice much from primo other than better estrogen control. I also don't notice much of a strength increase from anavar; rather, I notice that it gets me a lot leaner quicker while I'm able to sustain or even slightly increase on my lifts.

Actually, the reason I increased my test was to accommodate more deca. I'm really wary of "deca dick" and my understanding has been that maintaining a 2:1 ratio all but eliminates the chance of having issues with impotence. Have you been successful with a lower ratio?

Thanks again.

This all makes sense to me. And with only 1-200 cal planned surplus, that can very easily be a deficit if you are particularly active. Before you know it, you might only be up 1,000 calories a week - only netting about 1lb of actual dry bodyweight per month. If you blast half the year trying to grow, that’s only 6lbs. But if you go for ~500 cals, you can theoretically gain around 1lb per week, 4x the growth potential. This is a fairly standard approach for someone who is generally tracking calories.

Anavar is unique in that like Tren it’s a glucocorticoid inhibitor - it’s especially good for retaining lean mass in a deficit. But for growth, it’s not doing anything unique that mg from anywhere else couldn’t really do. And it can inhibit appetite slightly via a couple mechanisms.

I have only ever ran Deca up to 250 - it greatly increases the amount your testosterone aromatizes, and that high estrogen lets my prolactin go wild on it, which is what causes the Decadick. If I add in enough Masteron, this resolves the issue, because it raises the total androgen balance while also counteracting the estrogen that the test (and inadvertently deca) contribute. You can also just use an AI, and add big dose of P5P. But I just don’t feel that good on much deca. Everyone is individual in response. My buddy blows up on it.

Primo isn’t a particularly strong anabolic - its benefit is in the low side effects often experienced at higher mg, something easier to tolerate that fills the syringe. But Mast is cheaper, less faked (it can still be low dosed test sometimes), helps offset Estrogen symptoms similarly (and usually more potently per mg), and doesn’t drive RBC production nearly as hard as Primo (so less clotting/stroke risks or trouble managing blood thickness potentially).

Something you could try is dropping the Var, test at 700, deca 400, and run Mast at like 400. This trims your total gear down to 1.5g & gets you off orals while you are trying to grow (which again, comes from having enough food). If you want similar mg to now, you could drive test or deca higher for more anabolism/fluid retention, or mast if you felt you needed more SERM action/libido support/drying.

Or just run Test & Deca at higher mg, and use an AI. 1,000/4-500 with enough Exemestane or Anastrazole would probably be very effective for growth. Plenty of offseason bodybuilders just run a cc of deca and as much test as they can handle. Again, the food is the building materials for growth. The training stimulus is the work order and gear is your work force.

 

[BBiceps]

@Hyde have been giving great tips but something that wasn’t said is what size (hight, weight, bf%) are @BobDigital ? If he is lean 250+ I can see why he needs that high amount of gear but otherwise it’s really no reason. Also, OP said he added 25lb on his bench, where did that put you? I think this is important to know before we give advices on gear, because I have a feeling that gear is not the issue for lack of results.

 

[BobDigital]

@Hyde have been giving great tips but something that wasn’t said is what size (hight, weight, bf%) are @BobDigital ? If he is lean 250+ I can see why he needs that high amount of gear but otherwise it’s really no reason. Also, OP said he added 25lb on his bench, where did that put you? I think this is important to know before we give advices on gear, because I have a feeling that gear is not the issue for lack of results.

I'm 6'3", 235 lbs, and typically keep my bodyfat 8-12%. Bench PR is 380.

Due to the major leg injuries I referenced, I don't feel my lower body lifts are as good of an indicator; I've basically just gotten back to where I was pre-injury.

 

[BobDigital]

This all makes sense to me. And with only 1-200 cal planned surplus, that can very easily be a deficit if you are particularly active. Before you know it, you might only be up 1,000 calories a week - only netting about 1lb of actual dry bodyweight per month. If you blast half the year trying to grow, that’s only 6lbs. But if you go for ~500 cals, you can theoretically gain around 1lb per week, 4x the growth potential. This is a fairly standard approach for someone who is generally tracking calories.

Anavar is unique in that like Tren it’s a glucocorticoid inhibitor - it’s especially good for retaining lean mass in a deficit. But for growth, it’s not doing anything unique that mg from anywhere else couldn’t really do. And it can inhibit appetite slightly via a couple mechanisms.

I have only ever ran Deca up to 250 - it greatly increases the amount your testosterone aromatizes, and that high estrogen lets my prolactin go wild on it, which is what causes the Decadick. If I add in enough Masteron, this resolves the issue, because it raises the total androgen balance while also counteracting the estrogen that the test (and inadvertently deca) contribute. You can also just use an AI, and add big dose of P5P. But I just don’t feel that good on much deca. Everyone is individual in response. My buddy blows up on it.

Primo isn’t a particularly strong anabolic - its benefit is in the low side effects often experienced at higher mg, something easier to tolerate that fills the syringe. But Mast is cheaper, less faked (it can still be low dosed test sometimes), helps offset Estrogen symptoms similarly (and usually more potently per mg), and doesn’t drive RBC production nearly as hard as Primo (so less clotting/stroke risks or trouble managing blood thickness potentially).

Something you could try is dropping the Var, test at 700, deca 400, and run Mast at like 400. This trims your total gear down to 1.5g & gets you off orals while you are trying to grow (which again, comes from having enough food). If you want similar mg to now, you could drive test or deca higher for more anabolism/fluid retention, or mast if you felt you needed more SERM action/libido support/drying.

Or just run Test & Deca at higher mg, and use an AI. 1,000/4-500 with enough Exemestane or Anastrazole would probably be very effective for growth. Plenty of offseason bodybuilders just run a cc of deca and as much test as they can handle. Again, the food is the building materials for growth. The training stimulus is the work order and gear is your work force.

This post is a wealth of knowledge, thanks. I added the primo to control estrogen while allowing me to keep my AI dosage lower; my understanding was that AIs are harder on the lipids (and potentially compromise ligament/tendon structure).

I like the idea of getting off orals. I'll need to do my research on Masteron, but is that the one people say is very hard on the hairline? Thankfully, I've shown no tendency toward baldness and I've only managed DHT locally with Nizoral shampoo; I haven't even needed minoxidil.

Lastly, I've completely moved from anastrozole to aromasin for better SHBG control. As a suicidal inhibitor, it seems to manage my estrogen much better. Is there any reason other than cost to use arimidex?

 

[Hyde]

This post is a wealth of knowledge, thanks. I added the primo to control estrogen while allowing me to keep my AI dosage lower; my understanding was that AIs are harder on the lipids (and potentially compromise ligament/tendon structure).

I like the idea of getting off orals. I'll need to do my research on Masteron, but is that the one people say is very hard on the hairline? Thankfully, I've shown no tendency toward baldness and I've only managed DHT locally with Nizoral shampoo; I haven't even needed minoxidil.

Lastly, I've completely moved from anastrozole to aromasin for better SHBG control. As a suicidal inhibitor, it seems to manage my estrogen much better. Is there any reason other than cost to use arimidex?

Regarding AI and lipids, Anastrazole and Letrozole will hurt lipids, but Exemestane doesn’t - the only lipid impact is from actually having lower estrogen than otherwise if it was left higher. But this is a moot point if you are getting gyno or straining your heart from excess water retention without it. So if money is no option, using Exemestane up to 25mg/day daily would be the superior health option amongst them. If that was not enough still, then you’d either need one of the stronger drugs or realistically probably reconsider cycle design (less test or deca, more primo or mast or eq) to get the balance right for you & your goals). I only use Exemestane when I use an AI.

Masteron is no more risky on hairline than primo. Both are DHT derivatives, and like all drugs your response will be individual. I am not a big shedder, but primo makes me shed more than mast for sure. Some people can take huge amounts of one but will shed on the other & vice versa. Like you, I run Nizoral shampoo a few times a week on blast and it’s fine for me. Masteron also raises my libido much more than primo, fair warning.

 

[Smont]

I think your training and food needs a overhaul. It sounds like you have had to ramp um doses pretty hard to compensate for the other missing factors. I'm absolutely not against pushing up doses, but this dont really make sense. Anyone who goes from a cruise dose to even a gram should be adding 20-30lbs on there lifts in 1 cycle, maybe a matter of a month if you got orals in the mix. To be on 2+grams and not gaining then we gotta go back to the drawing board.

Edit: playing catch up now, didnt see all the other posts

 

[Smont]

I can vouch for hyde's point on training really hard vs. Training for your goals. I push ppl to train harder all the time, but training the wrong things harder dosent help me or anyone else.

 

[Hyde]

I can vouch for hyde's point on training really hard vs. Training for your goals. I push ppl to train harder all the time, but training the wrong things harder dosent help me or anyone else.

CrossFit is a good exaggerated example; you can be very sore & exhausted from all the volume, but the training result is not significant mass (or the goal).

 

[BBiceps]

I'm 6'3", 235 lbs, and typically keep my bodyfat 8-12%. Bench PR is 380.

Due to the major leg injuries I referenced, I don't feel my lower body lifts are as good of an indicator; I've basically just gotten back to where I was pre-injury.

Yeah, we’re in similar size/shape/age (6’1, 240, 45yrs, 12% bf) and I just benched 405 with about half of the drugs you’re using. I would take a few steps back, do less drugs and get on a new (better) diet/training program.

It’s really no reason for those amounts you’re taking.

 

[Hyde]

Yeah, we’re in similar size/shape/age (6’1, 240, 45yrs, 12% bf) and I just benched 405 with about half of the drugs you’re using. I would take a few steps back, do less drugs and get on a new (better) diet/training program.

It’s really no reason for those amounts you’re taking.

Congrats on getting your 405! I couldn’t remember if you had done it yet or just getting very close.

My run peaked at about 1g/wk at the highest dosage point, but the final 2 weeks the primo was done and I finished at ~775mg/wk: 210 test e base/wk, then 35 Trest Ace & 20 inj Dbol 5 days of the week and 50 Anadrol & 100 test suspension instead on my 2 bench days.

It was the heavy high-volume training and 5-5,500 calories/day to fuel a new max bodyweight that was necessary for me more than the gear selection. I mean the gear plays a huge role but without the fuel and work it’s all useless.

 

[Smont]

Yeah, we’re in similar size/shape/age (6’1, 240, 45yrs, 12% bf) and I just benched 405 with about half of the drugs you’re using. I would take a few steps back, do less drugs and get on a new (better) diet/training program.

It’s really no reason for those amounts you’re taking.

Congrats on getting your 405! I couldn’t remember if you had done it yet or just getting very close.

My run peaked at about 1g/wk at the highest dosage point, but the final 2 weeks the primo was done and I finished at ~775mg/wk: 210 test e base/wk, then 35 Trest Ace & 20 inj Dbol 5 days of the week and 50 Anadrol & 100 test suspension instead on my 2 bench days.

It was the heavy high-volume training and 5-5,500 calories/day to fuel a new max bodyweight that was necessary for me more than the gear selection. I mean the gear plays a huge role but without the fuel and work it’s all useless.

Nice and nice!!! I want me that 405! Hopefully after some shoulder rest and some weight gain I can pull it together before the year ends. Another 20lbs and a little anadrol should do the trick

 

[BBiceps]

Congrats on getting your 405! I couldn’t remember if you had done it yet or just getting very close.

My run peaked at about 1g/wk at the highest dosage point, but the final 2 weeks the primo was done and I finished at ~775mg/wk: 210 test e base/wk, then 35 Trest Ace & 20 inj Dbol 5 days of the week and 50 Anadrol & 100 test suspension instead on my 2 bench days.

It was the heavy high-volume training and 5-5,500 calories/day to fuel a new max bodyweight that was necessary for me more than the gear selection. I mean the gear plays a huge role but without the fuel and work it’s all useless.

Thanks, I thought I told you? I was very happy to finally brake into 4 plates, I also did 5 reps on bent over rows with 405 the same day, it definitely was a good PR day!

 

[Hyde]

Thanks, I thought I told you? I was very happy to finally brake into 4 plates, I also did 5 reps on bent over rows with 405 the same day, it definitely was a good PR day!

You did tell me because now that you mention your rows I do remember it, I just have suck memory sometimes

 

[johnny412]

Thanks, I thought I told you? I was very happy to finally brake into 4 plates, I also did 5 reps on bent over rows with 405 the same day, it definitely was a good PR day!

wtf! thats insane!!!