What are the downsides to continual arachidonic use/not cycling?
- Thread starter john10960
- Start date
Renew1
Legend
Invalid Link Removed
LeanEngineer
Legend
This! Plus my joints can't handle it long term. I have to cycle or I start noticing it in my elbows and knees.
Renew1
Legend
Not Probably.... Definitely.
The articles talking about it don't say that it is All Bad.
Long term usage Can cause damage ... And sometimes Does.
I have a friend who suffered quite a bit because of it.
But his "individual results" aren't a stand alone testimony (although they are Also that) .... They support the research.
That's why I posted the article with the facts, and no commentary.
It's hard to argue with facts.
... Our individual Opinions sometimes differ.
The articles talking about it don't say that it is All Bad.
Long term usage Can cause damage ... And sometimes Does.
I have a friend who suffered quite a bit because of it.
But his "individual results" aren't a stand alone testimony (although they are Also that) .... They support the research.
That's why I posted the article with the facts, and no commentary.
It's hard to argue with facts.
... Our individual Opinions sometimes differ.
Renew1
Legend
You're too smart for me man.
Find someone else to hang out with.
..
And yes, I saw what you picked out to post.
sns8778
Board Sponsor
There is a lot of misinformation in this thread, and some of it seems to be being pushed by another company representative trying to scare you away from ARA.
ARA has tons of safety studies. When it was first introduced 20+ years ago as a supplement, there was some debate as to if it would have any side effects and over the years, tons of studies have been done showing the health benefits of ARA supplementation.
We live in a world where you can find studies on almost anything - sometimes even researchers just trying to make observations to get funding for future studies. It's important to look at studies in context, especially if 50 studies say 1 thing and 1 says something different.
On one of the studies that was posted, @Resolve10 did a great job touching on exactly what that study was saying, as its important to actually understand what a study is saying rather than just post the links and trying to misinform or scare people about something.
That study clearly says:
Although our body requires AA, consuming too much of it could be problematic. Israel, one of the countries with the highest level of AA intake, has high prevalence rates of atherosclerosis, diabetes, obesity, and hypertension [188]. This may be, however, confounded by saturated fat and heme iron contained in AA-rich red meat leading to a higher risk of dyslipidemia, thereby an increased risk of CVD.
^^^ That wasn't on ARA supplementation, it was done as a cultural statistic on increased risk of those conditions. That culture consumes the highest amount of ARA because they consume the highest amount of red meat. The researchers clearly state that they don't know if those things are related to the ARA content or to the high saturated fat and high iron content.
ARA can be cycled or used daily. The old school thought was using it daily for 8 to 12 weeks and then taking a break. Then, as a lot of people got into using it for pre-workout only, many people started using it for much longer periods of time - because they weren't using it daily, they were taking breaks between using it anyway between workout days.
Long term chronic inflammation is bad in general, but equating ARA to systemic inflammation is a bit misleading.
There are hundreds, if not thousands more studies that would relate simple sugar to systemic inflammation moreso than ARA.
12 weeks wasn't even pushing it 20 years ago when it first came out.
Even when people were being super cautious with it and using it daily, 8 to 12 weeks was the minimum cycle length.
There are people here that use ARA year round and have no negative health issues with it.
I'm going to post another post in a moment giving a lot of the study conclusions from real actual studies so that you can see it in context.
sns8778
Board Sponsor
Corrected that for you.
Also, hard to tell if you are talking about inflammation in general or making some wide reaching generalization that because ArA can increase inflammation that it causes this because apparently all inflammation is bad.
Cool link for those actually wanting to read into it if anyone is looking to move past fear mongering and dive into the actual nuance.
Some quotes from the actual text linked:
Nutrition is quite complicated and personal interactions with nearly any intervention is nuanced, it is important to keep these things in mind and avoid being too broad with sweeping generalizations.
Some other potential things highlighted in the above text with regards to other studies:
ArA may also be beneficial for cognition in elderly (due to poor ArA metabolism with aging): Invalid Link Removed
ArA (in combination with DHA) may be cardioprotective as we age (and we have tons of reports of increased blood flow being a major benefit in those who supplement with it): Invalid Link Removed
So again it is a nuanced topic.
Sorry got off topic and don't want to make this way too long, so I won't even go too detailed on how it specifically interacts with hypertrophy, strength and power (there are other threads you can search for or I can link later).
Now for OP.
It is going to come down to your personal situations, your diet and your training approaches.
It is important to remember ArA is an omega-6 fatty acid. PUFA generally have positive health benefits, especially when consumed with proper ratios of omega-3 fatty acids and in place of too many saturated fats. ArA is found in a variety of foods, especially those bodybuilders like to eat (fish, poultry, eggs, beef, etc. which why it was narrowed down to test for potential anabolic benefits). That is important to keep in mind because one of the hypothesized reasons why some people may respond more to its supplementation than others may come down to baseline levels in ones diet, so if you even if you stop supplementing it may still be in your diet in a baseline level (which is fine).
Which leads to the above about personalization. For intensive hypertrophy or strength training cycles and/or periods where you supplement with higher dosages (maybe above 1g) it may make sense to "cycle" it or have periods of lesser intake.
Now if you don't eat foods with much ArA and/or you seem to respond really well to supplementation then smaller long term doses like 250-500mg daily may also make sense.
So potentially 4-16 weeks of higher dosing (like normally recommended or above like some people feel inclined to run), followed by periods without or smaller dosages, or even just long term low dosage in certain situations are all perfectly viable options, as long as you are a healthy and exercising human who follows good training and nutritional strategies.
Now the caveat is that it probably does have some situations to lower dosage and/or avoid, but if you get great results and don't have these issues no need stressing over it unnecessarily. Those with certain specific inflammatory conditions, those advised to lower omega-6 intakes, and/or those with certain aches/pains may be better off looking elsewhere.
Sorry for the overly long post, but I just feel it is a bit weird how quickly everyone lately wants to just dog pile ArA. We have a natural anabolic with actually a lot of studies to sift through (probably why it is hard, can't just make up random stuff or be bothered to read through it all) and not just something with a bunch of vague trust me bro BS, but because it is complicated everyone just focuses on some of the scary buzzwords or negative reviews, when we literally have tons of people who absolutely loved this stuff and if it was released again today with no prior knowledge people would be dying to use. Just weird when so many people also easily recommend much sketchier, more untested, and poorly regulated "products" on here daily without a second thought.
Happy to answer more if needed.
@john10960 or anyone else that wants real information on Arachidonic Acid, the post above is an excellent post that does a great job in providing real information in context.
That study that was posted, it literally says itself:
Although our body requires AA, consuming too much of it could be problematic. Israel, one of the countries with the highest level of AA intake, has high prevalence rates of atherosclerosis, diabetes, obesity, and hypertension [188]. This may be, however, confounded by saturated fat and heme iron contained in AA-rich red meat leading to a higher risk of dyslipidemia, thereby an increased risk of CVD.
^^^ That wasn't on ARA supplementation, it was done as a cultural statistic on increased risk of those conditions. That culture consumes the highest amount of ARA because they consume the highest amount of red meat. The researchers clearly state that they don't know if those things are related to the ARA content or to the high saturated fat and high iron content.
It's always mighty convenient when a rep from another company can cherry pick 1 study that openly acknowledges itself that they can't say its from the ARA and may be from other factors - but then conveniently ignore the dozens of other studies showing safety.
As with all things in life, context is important.
Renew1
Legend
Clarification:
I was not pushing anything.
I posted the Whole thing.
If I were pushing a narrative... I'd do that opposite.
I .... Didn't do that.
I have nothing to gain personally, from him using this supplement, or not.
If I did ... My response should probably be deeper scrutinized.
I posted the whole thing ... So everyone would have all of the information.
It was my hope that the OP, and everyone, would read it for themselves, and come to their own conclusions.
john10960
Member
Thanks for all the in-depth replies guys.
So I’m vegetarian and that means I probably don’t get much ArA in my diet. Maybe that’s why my strength PRs in certain muscle groups really went up quick.
I think I’ll finish this bottle, which would be a total of about 13 weeks on ArA, then take a break. How long do breaks typically last? I actually was possibly thinking about anabolic xt next, we’ll see. But man, nothing has pushed me past PRs as quickly as ArA
So I’m vegetarian and that means I probably don’t get much ArA in my diet. Maybe that’s why my strength PRs in certain muscle groups really went up quick.
I think I’ll finish this bottle, which would be a total of about 13 weeks on ArA, then take a break. How long do breaks typically last? I actually was possibly thinking about anabolic xt next, we’ll see. But man, nothing has pushed me past PRs as quickly as ArA
sns8778
Board Sponsor
When Arachidonic Acid first became available as a supplement over 20 years ago, there was some debate as to whether there were any side effects with it, because people didn’t know a lot about it at the time and there weren’t nearly as many studies.
A lot of the information at the time, was people trying to attribute some Linoleic Acid potential side effects to ARA – which I always thought was ironic and comical, because you had people in the hardcore bodybuilding crowd at the time using methylated ph’s and scared that Borage Oil (Linoleic Acid) was going to be the end of them.
Meanwhile, in the real world, Borage Oil is and was one of the most popular supplements in the world and is used by millions of people – and research universities like UNC and Duke were, and still are, having patients use it for many chronic health issues.
The original school of thought on ARA was to use it daily for 8 to 12 weeks.
Then came along the school of thought of people using it only on workout days.
People don’t, or shouldn’t be working out 7 days a week.
So, in terms of cycling versus not cycling:
If you’re using ARA only on workout days, then you are skipping days anyway on non-workout days, so its really up to the individual whether they cycle it or not.
If you are using it every day, I would suggest taking a break from time to time. I don’t think its set in stone when that needs to be, and I don’t think its going to hurt you if you don’t, I think its an issue of moreso after 4 to 6 months of continuous use, you’ll probably respond to it better if you take a break and then go back to it. But me personally, I wouldn’t take a break from it until I felt my results were stalling out from it.
Does ARA cause joint issues in some people?
Yes, it may. In some people that’s because it can cause some inflammation; but in some people, they’re blaming the issues on ARA when its really that their strength has went up really quickly and that’s contributing too.
Is chronic inflammation bad?
Chronic systemic inflammation is not good for you, BUT that’s chronic inflammation in general, not specific to ARA. And there are many studies that show that ARA itself has many health benefits.
Who shouldn’t take Arachidonic Acid?
Anyone with an autoimmune condition, especially an inflammatory one, should avoid Arachidonic Acid supplementation because one thing that is monitored with autoimmune conditions is inflammatory markers. So, its best to avoid ARA supplementation as to not skew your bloodwork, and also people with inflammatory conditions are going to be more susceptible to the increased soreness from ARA.
Now, as I mentioned, context is important when it comes to studies. Anyone can cherry pick or nit-pick and find a study and post it without providing context or possibly without even understanding the context, but if there’s one study showing one thing and dozens showing something else, that’s where context becomes even more important.
Here are some excerpts on Arachidonic Acid from studies:
Arachidonic acid helps to maintain hippocampal cell membrane fluidity. It also helps protect the brain from oxidative stress by activating peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor gamma. AA also activates syntaxin-3 (STX-3), a protein involved in the growth and repair of neurons.
ARA is an integral constituent of biological cell membrane, conferring it with fluidity and flexibility, so necessary for the function of all cells, especially in nervous system, skeletal muscle, and immune system.
ARA is an integral constituent of biological cell membrane, conferring it with fluidity and flexibility, so necessary for the function of all cells, especially in nervous system, skeletal muscle, and immune system. Arachidonic acid is obtained from food or by desaturation and chain elongation of the plant-rich essential fatty acid, linoleic acid. Free ARA modulates the function of ion channels, several receptors and enzymes, via activation as well as inhibition. That explains its fundamental role in the proper function of the brain and muscles and its protective potential against Schistosoma mansoni and S. haematobium infection and tumor initiation, development, and metastasis.
Free ARA and metabolites promote and modulate type 2 immune responses, which are critically important in resistance to parasites and allergens insult, directly via action on eosinophils, basophils, and mast cells and indirectly by binding to specific receptors on innate lymphoid cells. In conclusion, the present review advocates the innumerable ARA roles and considerable importance for normal health.
Here is a great study length that addresses how ARA was viewed many years ago and the shift in the paradigm to viewing it as something with many health benefits:
Invalid Link Removed
A lot of the information at the time, was people trying to attribute some Linoleic Acid potential side effects to ARA – which I always thought was ironic and comical, because you had people in the hardcore bodybuilding crowd at the time using methylated ph’s and scared that Borage Oil (Linoleic Acid) was going to be the end of them.
Meanwhile, in the real world, Borage Oil is and was one of the most popular supplements in the world and is used by millions of people – and research universities like UNC and Duke were, and still are, having patients use it for many chronic health issues.
The original school of thought on ARA was to use it daily for 8 to 12 weeks.
Then came along the school of thought of people using it only on workout days.
People don’t, or shouldn’t be working out 7 days a week.
So, in terms of cycling versus not cycling:
If you’re using ARA only on workout days, then you are skipping days anyway on non-workout days, so its really up to the individual whether they cycle it or not.
If you are using it every day, I would suggest taking a break from time to time. I don’t think its set in stone when that needs to be, and I don’t think its going to hurt you if you don’t, I think its an issue of moreso after 4 to 6 months of continuous use, you’ll probably respond to it better if you take a break and then go back to it. But me personally, I wouldn’t take a break from it until I felt my results were stalling out from it.
Does ARA cause joint issues in some people?
Yes, it may. In some people that’s because it can cause some inflammation; but in some people, they’re blaming the issues on ARA when its really that their strength has went up really quickly and that’s contributing too.
Is chronic inflammation bad?
Chronic systemic inflammation is not good for you, BUT that’s chronic inflammation in general, not specific to ARA. And there are many studies that show that ARA itself has many health benefits.
Who shouldn’t take Arachidonic Acid?
Anyone with an autoimmune condition, especially an inflammatory one, should avoid Arachidonic Acid supplementation because one thing that is monitored with autoimmune conditions is inflammatory markers. So, its best to avoid ARA supplementation as to not skew your bloodwork, and also people with inflammatory conditions are going to be more susceptible to the increased soreness from ARA.
Now, as I mentioned, context is important when it comes to studies. Anyone can cherry pick or nit-pick and find a study and post it without providing context or possibly without even understanding the context, but if there’s one study showing one thing and dozens showing something else, that’s where context becomes even more important.
Here are some excerpts on Arachidonic Acid from studies:
Arachidonic acid helps to maintain hippocampal cell membrane fluidity. It also helps protect the brain from oxidative stress by activating peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor gamma. AA also activates syntaxin-3 (STX-3), a protein involved in the growth and repair of neurons.
ARA is an integral constituent of biological cell membrane, conferring it with fluidity and flexibility, so necessary for the function of all cells, especially in nervous system, skeletal muscle, and immune system.
ARA is an integral constituent of biological cell membrane, conferring it with fluidity and flexibility, so necessary for the function of all cells, especially in nervous system, skeletal muscle, and immune system. Arachidonic acid is obtained from food or by desaturation and chain elongation of the plant-rich essential fatty acid, linoleic acid. Free ARA modulates the function of ion channels, several receptors and enzymes, via activation as well as inhibition. That explains its fundamental role in the proper function of the brain and muscles and its protective potential against Schistosoma mansoni and S. haematobium infection and tumor initiation, development, and metastasis.
Free ARA and metabolites promote and modulate type 2 immune responses, which are critically important in resistance to parasites and allergens insult, directly via action on eosinophils, basophils, and mast cells and indirectly by binding to specific receptors on innate lymphoid cells. In conclusion, the present review advocates the innumerable ARA roles and considerable importance for normal health.
Here is a great study length that addresses how ARA was viewed many years ago and the shift in the paradigm to viewing it as something with many health benefits:
Invalid Link Removed
sns8778
Board Sponsor
You posted 1 study that contradicts dozens of other ones, and that part of what you posted the researchers clearly stated that they weren't sure if the negatives they mention were associated with ARA or with the high saturated fat or high iron content.
You posted it as a reflection on ARA supplementation, when it was a cultural observation on Israel having the highest ARA consumption because they have the highest red meat consumption.
Then someone posted quotes from what you posted, and you disagreed with it - they were from what you posted.
Absolutely - people should read all the information about it that they can - and sure, they should read the study that you posted and they should read it in context - and then they should read all the studies on actual ARA that show something different than the discussion points in that one.
Which is my point - context is important.
john10960
Member
I workout typically 6-7 days a week , rotating push/pull and different muscle groups. Same intensity, relatively short workouts.
The main reason I do this is because my work/sleep schedule doesn’t really allow for full workouts on what would be 3-4x week time wise. Also going to the gym daily really helps me start the day right, relieve stress, provides structure, etc etc
so I’m essentially taking ArA everyday.
The main reason I do this is because my work/sleep schedule doesn’t really allow for full workouts on what would be 3-4x week time wise. Also going to the gym daily really helps me start the day right, relieve stress, provides structure, etc etc
so I’m essentially taking ArA everyday.
sns8778
Board Sponsor
That's great to know, and in one of the studies or study excerpts that I posted above, the study mentions how ARA supplementation for health and brain benefits can be even more important for vegetarians. Because as you surmised, you wouldn't get nearly as much in your diet, and it is good for a lot of things.
There are a lot of vegetarians that do supplement year round with ARA, although they do usually do it at lower dosages. General health wise, the typical dose is 2 softgels of X-Gels. Then some that are vegetarian and bodybuilders will do 2 per day every day but then do additional ones on their heavier workout days. For example, 2 every day but 4 on leg day or chest/back days. (Not saying you need to or should; just sharing common things that vegetarians may do).
Also, X-Gels seems to work great for most people, but I do agree with you that I think vegetarians may see even better than normal benefits from it.
The typical cycle off time would be 4 weeks.
X-Gels makes a great stack with Anabolic XT. You likely won't see as quick of strength gains from Anabolic XT as X-Gels, but people typically notice a lot bigger variety of benefits from Anabolic XT. Most people use Anabolic XT for 12 to 16 weeks, so you could get that started while you are off of X-Gels, and then add X-Gels back into it if you wanted to.
I hope all the info helps you and others.
sns8778
Board Sponsor
Nothing wrong with that. I should have clarified, when I said that people shouldn't workout 7 days a week, I meant they shouldn't be in the gym 2 hours a day 7 days a week generally. But even then, it really comes down to what works best for a person. But I think that's a great system you have going and as long as you don't feel over trained, I'd stick with it.
I think whether you cycle it is really up to you.
In today's world, a lot of people use it only on workout days - I've always said that in my opinion, it should be used daily for best results. So in your case, that lines up and you have both bases covered.
There's nothing wrong with taking breaks and cycling off, but I don't want you to be scared off from something you like by a random study that wouldn't apply to you at all - because that study was talking about people in Israel having a higher ARA, iron, and saturated fat consumption because they eat more red meat, which absolutely would have nothing to do with you since you're vegetarian. Whereas, there are numerous other studies, including the one I posted the link for where the researchers even address the older misinformation about ARA and then go on to address a wide variety of its health benefits.
I think that's something that gets overlooked a lot about ARA - that it can be an even better supplement for people that don't eat meat.