Aleksandar37
Well-known member
Except Target is sending medical aid to the areas and providing all displaced workers with full pay and benefits, so...
Donald Trump running for president
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Except Target is sending medical aid to the areas and providing all displaced workers with full pay and benefits, so...
nostrum420
Well-known member
But yes, taking someone's time and not paying a living wage for the time you took is akin to slowly killing that person, in my opinion.
nostrum420
Well-known member
Yeah, they'll make some gestures now to get the social credit to get away with their ongoing looting of their workforce. It'll be a great investment for them.
muscleupcrohn
Legend
The two are apples and oranges though man...
One is someone in a position of authority, given lethal weapons and authority to use them, sworn to protect and serve, abusing said power and authority to literally murder people. The other is a company paying people, who voluntarily decide to work for them, minimum wage. They are not killing anyone, at all. It’s not even close, and it’s insulting to the actual issue of police brutality and the systemic issue of it being allowed and covered up. Think of a better comparison or analogy...
Carnivorecon
Well-known member
No one can argue with people like you because your assume you know best and everyone else's experience means nothing so i wont waste my breath because you've already decide your superior to me and it's not based on facts thats for damn sure
Aleksandar37
Well-known member
I think he just didn’t know what was meant by it. See him quoting my post explaining it and him saying he agreed. I think it was just a misunderstanding.
Nope
Aleksandar37
Well-known member
I've admitted that I was wrong or didn't know something several times in this thread alone. I didn't call your thought bs, that was you.
Carnivorecon
Well-known member
My issue is people act like its universally applicable term and it is not
Aleksandar37
Well-known member
As you continue to use contractors and provide no benefits, Target will never win in your eyes then. Even if they raised the salaries, wouldn't that just be "gestures now to get the social credit"? Nobody is forcing people to work at Target.
Aleksandar37
Well-known member
And I explained in my post that there are exceptions. It's not about white people having advantages at all times. It's about society and groups of people as a whole. There will always be exceptions, but you don't want to take a step back and look at it that way. You hear white privilege and immediately take it as a personal attack, when again, it has nothing to do with you. The fact that you can live your life believing that white privilege doesn't exist is in itself an example of white privilege.
muscleupcrohn
Legend
Yeah, I gave him credit prematurely.
muscleupcrohn
Legend
Who cares why they do the right thing as long as they do the right thing. If helping workers helps them, then cool, as long as workers end up benefiting. What, should they only do good when it HURTS their bottom line? Mutually beneficial actions like this should be ideal man!
muscleupcrohn
Legend
He’s comparing police murdering people to Target paying minimum wage (or slightly above it). Clearly he’s a fan of hyperbole.
nostrum420
Well-known member
I see what you're saying about the difference in the violence level. I'm just trying to explain the common thread I see between being pissed off at the Police as a system of oppression and also seeing below living wages as a system of oppression. If I'm someone who is out being super pissed off about one, it would be easy to take the opportunity to lash out at the other.
nostrum420
Well-known member
nostrum420
Well-known member
They are. I'm just saying one act here or there may be an outlier when it comes to their overall pattern of behavior.
A good thing is a good thing though and gift horses and mouths and all that, though. I concede on that part.
Aleksandar37
Well-known member
Haha, you're right. I'm just jealous of their success.
No, but it's easier to criticize a company that actually employs people when you don't have to deal with the issues that go into that.
nostrum420
Well-known member
I guess my language is perhaps over the top but I'm not the one lashing out at these places. I don't think I'm the only who made the connection I'm trying to explain. I don't think lashing out at Target was random opportunism. I think it was people who feel they've been exploited by Target or some other member of the corporate class and in their minds, taking back some of the value that's been stolen from them.
Aleksandar37
Well-known member
Do you really believe though that most protesters think that deep in the moment? Maybe they do, but personally I think it's more raw than that and you're lashing out at society as a whole and that's the object that happens to be in front of you at the moment. It's like punching a hole in the wall when you're pissed off. You don't think about what the wall represents, you just do it.
nostrum420
Well-known member
By this logic none of us are in any position to criticize the president because We don't have to deal with the issues that go into running the country.
nostrum420
Well-known member
I think it's a mix but I do think you'd find a pattern overall of the property damage and theft being directed at "faceless corporations" not always (and I feel like I'm going to have to come back to that qualifier at some point) but I think it would trend that way.
So, are they thinking that deeply in the moment? They don't need to, this a long built resentment toward corporate oligopoly. People may not be "forced" to work for Target but when they only have one or two other options and none of them pay much if any better there is a class solidarity amongst the ownership that does force you to accept a low wage.
Carnivorecon
Well-known member
So we actually agree then that white priv is not universal, have you read any of my posts i can see plain as day there is a problem with racism which is endemic in the us justice system and am appalled by the brutalisation police seem to be getting away with. Maybe i do take umbrage with the term white priv but i do with most blanket statements about any race or group of people and always have so yeah forgive me if i take a bit more personal when its the race which i happen to be
muscleupcrohn
Legend
Dude, people are setting fire to small businesses and local restaurants too; sometimes looting is just looting, and the legitimate protests and targeted non-peaceful protests are used as an excuse by some people to loot. Sometimes.
nostrum420
Well-known member
Sure. Back to that qualifier I noted.
muscleupcrohn
Legend
Yeah, what I’m saying is that I don’t think the people looting Target are doing it because they’re mad at their “corporate overlords,” I think it’s just that people are really pissed off and want people to know and notice it. So they lash out at whatever and wherever they can. And then SOME opportunistic people jump in, just looking to loot places during the chaos.
Anyway, my main point was that there’s a HUGE difference between a system that covers up police officers in positions of authority literally murdering people and a company paying people slightly more than minimum wage. Saying it’s not a big leap from one to another is, frankly, insane. That is all.
Jiigzz
Legend
His points are valid.
A lot of people misconstrue the word 'privilege' and think it is solely about having everything easy. I've had struggles, I've worked hard for where I am today as I'm sure everyone else can attest to, however I also know that I have it MUCH easier than someone of colour.
A friend of mine who has exceptional qualifications and endorsements from his previous managers had applied for about 30 jobs using his real name (Bharat) and heard nothing. He changed his name to Brad and was called back an interviewed by the first job he applied for.
Another friend of mine who is African was pulled over while driving in an Audi. He wasn't speeding or doing anything that warranted being pulled over, but the officer ran checks on who owned the vehicle and checked it against his licence.
When I worked for Police, a lady called us because 2 "Maori or Pacific Island" boys - aged about 10-12 - were riding their bikes in an affluent area. When I asked her if they were doing anything illegal, she replied "not yet" and also added, "my employer (I found out she was a housekeeper) would be upset to have these people riding in this area" or something to that effect.
Imagine that. Being a kid and riding your bike and having the cops called on you. That's bs. I've had quite a few other calls that are obviously people racially profiling and it is disgusting.
nostrum420
Well-known member
Agree to disagree stomping someone's throat is certainly worse than leaving someone to starve but they're not different worlds, in my view. That said, they were big crowds and I'm sure it was a mix but IMO if you could interview them all you'd find a lot of them that were pretty mad at their corporate overlords.
muscleupcrohn
Legend
What should be minimum wage be then? If paying a bit more than that is comparable to people in positions of power and authority murdering people and then covering it up systemically?
Carnivorecon
Well-known member
You're absolutlely right that type of thing is bs and i know it goes on, what the hell is going on i feel like im in the twilight zone here haha at what point did i say racism doesn't exist or that it does and i support it. Am i losing the plot or something? I say one thing and i get 50 responses about all the racism in the world, OKAY YES YES YES racism is awful and i am dead against it and the police are getting away with murder and it has to stop. Can i make it any clearer where i stand on this issue of racism, I'm being deadly serious i fucking hate racists! Its the most ignorant thing you can be and severely limits your potential life experiences and connection with other people.
Aleksandar37
Well-known member
No we don't agree. You said white privilege is "bs" and that I think I'm superior to you because you got your feelings hurt by a concept that you didn't even understand. And I stand by my statement that if you think white privilege doesn't exist, then you're not basing that on facts; you're going off of emotions. If that makes you uncomfortable and angry, then good, but it's still not about you. Compared to people of color, whites as a whole have privileges. And if you want to waste time pointing out the exceptions to the rule, then you're part of the problem. My statement are meant to people in general, not just you (who I know absolutely nothing about, thus my use of "if" throughout), so if something I say triggers an emotion, consider taking a minute to explore why.
Carnivorecon
Well-known member
Yes lots to consider there, I'll take these points on board thanks
Aleksandar37
Well-known member
That's true, we don't.
Aleksandar37
Well-known member
They're definitely just things to think about as I'm not always right or better or whatever than anybody else here. I'll admit that I was "triiggered" (sorry, I hate what that word has become but couldn't think of a better one) by your use of "white privilege bs." I made an assumption of who you were and you're obviously not that person based on everything else that you've said against racism and the current state of police brutality.
Carnivorecon
Well-known member
Thank you, i know its hard to make any concession once you take a stance, i do get triggered by the white priv term but I see now I'm internalising it too much when its not aimed at me at all. I honestly got more heated when it appeared i was being made out as a racist when i on a very personal level find racism abhorrent and stupid, you ever just feel people are getting you all wrong and its confusing as to why, you feel like you must being crazy or something that was my frustration lol
ax1
Legend
When I hear "white privilege" that to me is straight out racist and wrong and people lose me for their causes.
There is only 1 color that matters, and that's green.
ax1
Legend
I agree its much more than murder and racism.
When people lose everything and they have shyt left to lose, they lose it.
justhere4comm
Banned
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powerful
powerful
ax1
Legend
How do certain blacks gain equality for themselves by consistently blaming people that have nothing to do with their problems as a whole and consistently coming off as if they are a different species of human?
When are people gonna stop obsessing over some stupid skin color people were born with? I mean I get cultural differences, but skin color has absolutely nothing to do with it, its all circumstantial and even in those circumstances there is a level of individuality.
muscleupcrohn
Legend
Even if MOST White people aren’t racist, when SOME, even a small minority, of them in positions of power are, and when their racist actions are allowed and often covered up, you can understand why people are frustrated. Logical people aren’t claiming all or most White people are racist, only that the system allows too much racism to exist, you know.
ax1
Legend
The problem is by allowing illogical people to blame a skin color, that is also allowing racism to exist. They need to be put down too.
If people want to pick out specific incidents of racism on specific people or a group of specific people, I can get on the same page with that as is with the MN case.
nostrum420
Well-known member
As we've discussed I don't think there's one right number. I think the Fed Gov should create incentives for states based on the number of employed people who are still drawing on social safety net programs.
Places like Target instruct their poverty wage employees on where to go and how to fill out the paperwork to get on Gov aid and then fund the campaigns of politicians that want to cut those programs. Philosophically they're saying their employees deserve to starve. If a state can't set a min. wage that prevents that, maybe they don't get any. Federal contracts.
Yeah, I don't think systemically leaving your employees to either starve or beg the gov for help is on a different planet from actively killing them. I agree the latter is worse but I don't agree that the former is completely incomparable. They both involve the underclass dying to maintain the power of the overclass.
muscleupcrohn
Legend
No one HAS to work at Target; you can simply not work there if you don’t want to. Police brutality, on the other hand, is unavoidable for a lot of people. Also, even if you feel you are exploited at Target, you can eventually leave or make your way to a higher paying job; being MURDERED is final, there’s no coming back from that.
There’s undoubtedly a difference between having people voluntarily come to you and agree to work for low wages and going out of your way to cover up people in positions of power with a literal monopoly on state-sanctioned violence murdering people in the streets. How you insist on saying that they’re comparable is insulting to victims of actual police brutality and systemic cover ups for said deplorable actions.
Yeah, go up to the victim of someone who was killed in cold blood by corrupt cops, and then had the department cover up said murder, and say “I know how you feel, I worked at Target.”
GTFO with that inane drivel man...
Edit: and Target doesn’t pay low wages to keep people down, they do it to maximize profits. If they could make more money somehow by paying $25/hour, they’d do it. They are ALL about maximizing profits. THAT is their priority. Given that there are enough people willing to work for little pay is why they do it. If the demand for jobs wasn’t there, they’d have to make the job offer more appealing. They don’t do it to “keep the low down,” they do it to make more money. It’s still not cool, but it’s not some sinister master plan like you make it out to be...
nostrum420
Well-known member
Both are systems of oppression. Both kill people. Both are for the benefit of the over class. Continue to excuse corporate exploitation if you want but Target and the Police Station got trashed on the same day and I don't think that's a coincidence.
I'm sure the boat owners at the Boston tea party were just trying to make a buck too.
muscleupcrohn
Legend
Also, since you mention people living in poverty working at Target.
Where I am, in Palm Beach County, Florida. Using MIT’s Living Wage Calculator:
——Single adult:
Poverty Wage is $6/hour
Minimum Wage is $8.46/hour
Living Wage is $13.18/hour
——Single adult with 1 kid:
Poverty Wage is $8.13/hour
Minimum Wage is $846/hour
Living Wage is $27.17/hour
——2 adults (both working, 2 kids)
Poverty Wage is $6.19hour
Minimum Wage is $8.46/hour
Living Wage is $14.84/hour
——So minimum wage isn’t living in poverty for any of these groups of people.
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Indeed lists the average salary in the same area for Target employees at:
$10.17-11.55 per hour for cashiers and customer service associates, etc.
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So do you think that minimum wage should meet a “living wage” for a single parent? Because $27.17/hour is ~$55k/year. That’s a BONKERS minimum wage, and would mean that McDonalds workers would make the same as engineers, teachers, etc. Yeah, that makes sense...
Where I am, in Palm Beach County, Florida. Using MIT’s Living Wage Calculator:
——Single adult:
Poverty Wage is $6/hour
Minimum Wage is $8.46/hour
Living Wage is $13.18/hour
——Single adult with 1 kid:
Poverty Wage is $8.13/hour
Minimum Wage is $846/hour
Living Wage is $27.17/hour
——2 adults (both working, 2 kids)
Poverty Wage is $6.19hour
Minimum Wage is $8.46/hour
Living Wage is $14.84/hour
——So minimum wage isn’t living in poverty for any of these groups of people.
Invalid Link Removed
Indeed lists the average salary in the same area for Target employees at:
$10.17-11.55 per hour for cashiers and customer service associates, etc.
Invalid Link Removed
So do you think that minimum wage should meet a “living wage” for a single parent? Because $27.17/hour is ~$55k/year. That’s a BONKERS minimum wage, and would mean that McDonalds workers would make the same as engineers, teachers, etc. Yeah, that makes sense...
muscleupcrohn
Legend
So did local restaurants and small businesses man... clearly the owner of an Indian restaurant was engaging in a system of oppression keeping the little man and minorities down. Wait, that doesn’t add up...
Someone told me Target in particular was vandalized because people who were pepper sprayed wanted to get milk there to wash their eye. No idea of the legitimacy to that though, just what I heard.
They are NOT the same. At all. PERIOD.
Edit: if they’re comparable, you’d then feel comfortable telling the family of someone who was killed in cold blood by police and then had said police cover up the murder that you can relate to them because you worked at Target? They’re comparable, right? Working at Target and being murdered by police? Clearly VERY similar. /s
Aleksandar37
Well-known member
Why are you asking me? I can't speak for other white men, why would I speak for a black one? And people will stop obsessing over race when people stop getting killed over race. Everybody want another example of white privilege? Here it is: being able to say race has nothing to do with it or stupid **** like I don't see race. Race exists and it's allowing cops to literally get away with murder. Finally we're getting cops arrested for it, but we're still not at the point of them being treated like everybody else? How long did it take for this current cop to get arrested and have the others been arrested yet? Two other cops held a cuffed prisoner down while a third choked him to death for something that I would probably get a warning for. But please, go on and tell us how it's the "certain blacks" that are the problem.
justhere4comm
Banned
Holy mother of god.
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Aleksandar37
Well-known member
Yep, and now we have a curfew from 5 pm to 5 am tomorrow
nostrum420
Well-known member
Love the strawmaning. I've said repeatedly that one is worse than the other. I'm done defending against reductio ad absurdum.
muscleupcrohn
Legend
That looks horrible. I assume those was an example of police being pepper spray happy (I saw a video of one SUV spraying pepper spray out the widow while driving at a protest that didn’t look violent at all) as opposed to a violent protest/riot? I’d assume a little girl wouldn’t be at a violent riot.