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Question With Stacking Certain PH's

aman88

Member
I was looking to stack either 1 andro and 4 andro, or epi andro and 4 andro for a bulk this upcoming fall. Last cycle I did was 600 mg epiandro oral and 2 ml of androsterone transdermal and it shut me down so bad I went off after a week immediately into a PCT. This time instead of the androsterone I was looking to add the 4 andro as I heard it is as good a "test base" as you can get for those who do not have access to the real deal.

Does anyone know what kind of doses of these compounds would be normal to run together?

I have also ran DMZ, epistane, 1 andro, epi andro all solo and liked it. I just have little experience stacking stuff other than the previously mentioned stack (with bad results).

Thanks guys and stay safe!
 
aman88 said:
I was looking to stack either 1 andro and 4 andro, or epi andro and 4 andro for a bulk this upcoming fall. Last cycle I did was 600 mg epiandro oral and 2 ml of androsterone transdermal and it shut me down so bad I went off after a week immediately into a PCT. This time instead of the androsterone I was looking to add the 4 andro as I heard it is as good a "test base" as you can get for those who do not have access to the real deal.

Does anyone know what kind of doses of these compounds would be normal to run together?

I have also ran DMZ, epistane, 1 andro, epi andro all solo and liked it. I just have little experience stacking stuff other than the previously mentioned stack (with bad results).

Thanks guys and stay safe!
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I just have to mention this in case you don't know (a surprisingly high number of guys on this board don't):

A "Test base" will not keep you from shutting down at all.
It can make you feel better WHILE you are shut down, though.

I love Epiandro. It is my current favorite.
But for mass, 1-Andro will beat it.
 
Renew1 said:
I just have to mention this in case you don't know (a surprisingly high number of guys on this board don't):

A "Test base" will not keep you from shutting down at all.
It can make you feel better WHILE you are shut down, though.

I love Epiandro. It is my current favorite.
But for mass, 1-Andro will beat it.
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Oh I know that I understand how the endocrine system works the test base gives you the test to supplement what your body isn’t making when you’re shut down... I get the concept. I mainly wanted to know what would be ideal doses of these compounds to stack, as I felt my previous stack of 600 mg epiandro and 2 ml androsterone was too much (for me at least).
 
justhere4comm said:
Huh? It does not give you more test on cycle. Only Test would.
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It can convert to testosterone 4-andro can I mean.

Kind of getting off point I was more looking for people who have stacked either 1 andro and 4 andro or epi andro and 4 andro and what doses they found worked well.
 
aman88 said:
It can convert to testosterone 4-andro can I mean.

Kind of getting off point I was more looking for people who have stacked either 1 andro and 4 andro or epi andro and 4 andro and what doses they found worked well.
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There are so many logs on here for all of the andro stacks/combos. Andro the giant- super mandro is a good stack. 330-660 of each for 8-12 weeks. Have a real ai and serm before starting. You'll have decent results but it will be expensive.
 
Ironpirate said:
There are so many logs on here for all of the andro stacks/combos. Andro the giant- super mandro is a good stack. 330-660 of each for 8-12 weeks. Have a real ai and serm before starting. You'll have decent results but it will be expensive.
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I was reading through some of those... yeah it seems absurdly expensive as compared to stronger compounds like Dmz.
 
The problem with stacking the "andros" aka 4 andro and 1 andro (4DHEA/1DHEA) is that they both use the same enzyme for conversion to their prodrug compounds, so they are competing for that enzyme for conversion, so you'll get less overall. I would pick one of those to use and then add some different PH/DS along side of it, instead of trying to stack them together.
 
My first cycle was 1/4/epiandro and I throughly enjoyed it (expensive AF but a nice stack imo)

but I don’t get what you meant by ‘it shut me down so bad I went off after a week into pct’?

literally anything worth taking will suppress your own natural production (which is what we mean by shut down) - Suppressed is suppressed really so anything will do this. If you mean you felt **** on the cycle that’s down to not having a ‘feel good’ compound (I.e test base or trest etc) that was effective in the stack.

1 andro will do more for mass but neither that nor epiandro will stack size on.
 
StarScream66 said:
The problem with stacking the "andros" aka 4 andro and 1 andro (4DHEA/1DHEA) is that they both use the same enzyme for conversion to their prodrug compounds, so they are competing for that enzyme for conversion, so you'll get less overall. I would pick one of those to use and then add some different PH/DS along side of it, instead of trying to stack them together.
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What else would you stack with 4 andro?
 
Whisky said:
My first cycle was 1/4/epiandro and I throughly enjoyed it (expensive AF but a nice stack imo)

but I don’t get what you meant by ‘it shut me down so bad I went off after a week into pct’?

literally anything worth taking will suppress your own natural production (which is what we mean by shut down) - Suppressed is suppressed really so anything will do this. If you mean you felt **** on the cycle that’s down to not having a ‘feel good’ compound (I.e test base or trest etc) that was effective in the stack.

1 andro will do more for mass but neither that nor epiandro will stack size on.
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Yes I meant I felt like complete crap. lol.
 
aman88 said:
Oh I know that I understand how the endocrine system works the test base gives you the test to supplement what your body isn’t making when you’re shut down... I get the concept. I mainly wanted to know what would be ideal doses of these compounds to stack, as I felt my previous stack of 600 mg epiandro and 2 ml androsterone was too much (for me at least).
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aman88 said:
Yes I meant I felt like complete crap. lol.
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so what you are asking is correct doses of epiandro and androsterone to stack?

if 600mg epi/2ml androsterone was too much for you why didn't you just reduce doses?
 
aman88 said:
What else would you stack with 4 andro?
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It depends on your goals and what you have access to. You could basically stack anything that isn't a DHEA based prohormone. Any kind of designer steroid or a different prohormone that converts via a different enzyme. So, for example, you could stack it with Msten and have the anabolic effects of testosterone combined with the more androgenic effects of msten. Or you could stack it with a SARM.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of 4DHEA. A lot of people are going to disagree with me here, but the pure and simple fact is that 4 andro converts to both androstenediol and androstenedione. The dione version is highly estrogenic, so, if nothing else, I would probably take it with an AI or SERM.
 
StarScream66 said:
It depends on your goals and what you have access to. You could basically stack anything that isn't a DHEA based prohormone. Any kind of designer steroid or a different prohormone that converts via a different enzyme. So, for example, you could stack it with Msten and have the anabolic effects of testosterone combined with the more androgenic effects of msten. Or you could stack it with a SARM.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of 4DHEA. A lot of people are going to disagree with me here, but the pure and simple fact is that 4 andro converts to both androstenediol and androstenedione. The dione version is highly estrogenic, so, if nothing else, I would probably take it with an AI or SERM.
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you ever used androstenedione?

it was otc 20 years ago, I bought a bottle for $12 bucks at Osco and ended up running 3 bottles. it was my 1st hormonal and I blew up on it. sometimes actual experience doesn't match what you find on google.
 
thebigt said:
so what you are asking is correct doses of epiandro and androsterone to stack?

if 600mg epi/2ml androsterone was too much for you why didn't you just reduce doses?
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No I realize that was wrong. I was asking what doses of 1 andro and 4 andro people took when they stacked it.
 
StarScream66 said:
It depends on your goals and what you have access to. You could basically stack anything that isn't a DHEA based prohormone. Any kind of designer steroid or a different prohormone that converts via a different enzyme. So, for example, you could stack it with Msten and have the anabolic effects of testosterone combined with the more androgenic effects of msten. Or you could stack it with a SARM.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of 4DHEA. A lot of people are going to disagree with me here, but the pure and simple fact is that 4 andro converts to both androstenediol and androstenedione. The dione version is highly estrogenic, so, if nothing else, I would probably take it with an AI or SERM.
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I have never taken 4-Dhea but I did hear that there is some estrogen conversion.
 
thebigt said:
you ever used androstenedione?

it was otc 20 years ago, I bought a bottle for $12 bucks at Osco and ended up running 3 bottles. it was my 1st hormonal and I blew up on it. sometimes actual experience doesn't match what you find on google.
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You must have been one of the lucky few. The vast majority of users of androstenedione had severely negative side effects from it. I got gyno from it.

Pharmacology
Androstenedione has been shown to increase serum testosterone levels over an eight-hour period in men when taken as a single oral dose of 300 mg per day, but a dose of 100 mg had no significant effect on serum testosterone.[10] However, serum levels of estradiol increased following both the 100 mg and 300 mg doses.[10] The study also reported that the serum level of estrogens and testosterone produced varied widely between individuals.[10]

A 2006 review paper summarized several studies that examined the effect of androstenedione on strength training.[11] At dosages of 50 mg or 100 mg per day, androstenedione had no effect on muscle strength or size, or on body fat levels.[11] One study used a daily dosage of 300 mg of androstenedione combined with several other supplements, and also found no increase in strength when compared to a control group that did not take the supplements.[11]
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10: Invalid Link Removed
11: Invalid Link Removed

The simple fact of the matter is androstenediol is superior. Unfortunately, because the government chose to ban that compound, a work around was found of a hormone that converts via a 2 enzyme pathway to both androstenediol and androstenedione. In an ideal world, no one would ever want to touch androstenedione - there is simply no need or benefit to it when androstenediol doesn't interact with the aromatese enzyme, while the dione version does.

My point being, if you choose to use 4DHEA, take an anti-estrogen with it.
 
StarScream66 said:
You must have been one of the lucky few. The vast majority of users of androstenedione had severely negative side effects from it. I got gyno from it.



10: Invalid Link Removed
11: Invalid Link Removed

The simple fact of the matter is androstenediol is superior. Unfortunately, because the government chose to ban that compound, a work around was found of a hormone that converts via a 2 enzyme pathway to both androstenediol and androstenedione. In an ideal world, no one would ever want to touch androstenedione - there is simply no need or benefit to it when androstenediol doesn't interact with the aromatese enzyme, while the dione version does.

My point being, if you choose to use 4DHEA, take an anti-estrogen with it.
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Yeah basically 4dhea conversion to androstenediol and androstenedione... dione can either convert to estrogen or testosterone, diol converts just to testosterone. What does what will vary person to person.

This is a pretty good graphic: Invalid Link Removed.
 
A good combo would be 1000 mg Epianro and 330 mg of both one andro and 4 Andro. Have an AI on hand, but you probably won’t need it at 1000 mg Epi Andro due to the fact it converts to DHT which will lower estradiol/estrogen.
 
Invalid Link Removed

My internet is broken. I think I keep ending up on evou*ionary by mistake.
 
JoePaul39 said:
A good combo would be 1000 mg Epianro and 330 mg of both one andro and 4 Andro. Have an AI on hand, but you probably won’t need it at 1000 mg Epi Andro due to the fact it converts to DHT which will lower estradiol/estrogen.
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Wow that’s a lot haha...
 
JoePaul39 said:
A good combo would be 1000 mg Epianro and 330 mg of both one andro and 4 Andro. Have an AI on hand, but you probably won’t need it at 1000 mg Epi Andro due to the fact it converts to DHT which will lower estradiol/estrogen.
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I'll butt out of this thread as it's clear my opinions are not very welcome by the long time members. That's okay though, I still like and respect them both and we have good conversations back and forth, we simply disagree on this subject.

But, the last thing I'll say is again - ideally you don't want to take 2 DHEA based substances as they will compete for the enzymes pathways that convert them to their prodrug. I don't know much about epiandro, but 1000mg sounds like an awful lot. But, the idea is pretty sound. Sort of like taking Proviron. But, I think msten might be a more DHT converting substance.

Invalid Link Removed
 
Renew1 said:
Dude ... That's by far the biggest pile of dung you've ever posted.
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I don't understand what your point you're trying to argue. Are you saying the science is simply wrong on this or you don't believe in idea of science at all?

Are you trying to dispute androstenedione doesn't convert to estrogen? I really am baffled by what you're trying to get across. It's like talking to an anti-vaxxer.
 
Renew1 said:
You REALLY believe this statement, don't you?
You're wrong.
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How can you prove anything without empirical evidence? That's the whole basis of the scientific method. What are you trying to argue with me about? I have no idea. If you can't comprehend that simple logic, then all I can recommend is a book by Carl Sagan for you. Invalid Link Removed.

How can we make intelligent decisions about our increasingly technology-driven lives if we don't understand the difference between the myths of pseudoscience and the testable hypotheses of science? Pulitzer Prize-winning author and distinguished astronomer Carl Sagan argues that scientific thinking is critical not only to the pursuit of truth but to the very well-being of our democratic institutions.

Casting a wide net through history and culture, Sagan examines and authoritatively debunks such celebrated fallacies of the past as witchcraft, faith healing, demons, and UFOs. And yet, disturbingly, in today's so-called information age, pseudoscience is burgeoning with stories of alien abduction, channeling past lives, and communal hallucinations commanding growing attention and respect. As Sagan demonstrates with lucid eloquence, the siren song of unreason is not just a cultural wrong turn but a dangerous plunge into darkness that threatens our most basic freedoms.
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aman88 said:
Here’s another study on androstenedione it’s older though.

Invalid Link Removed ... [/snip]
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That URL seems to be broken. All it says when you click on it is "Your session has timed out. Please go back to the article page and click the PDF link again."
 
StarScream66 said:
How can you prove anything without empirical evidence? That's the whole basis of the scientific method. What are you trying to argue with me about? I have no idea. If you can't comprehend that simple logic, then all I can recommend is a book by Carl Sagan for you. Invalid Link Removed.
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John just blew his brains out using these bullets.

Impossible, those are non-lethal bullets!

I watched him load the gun and do it.

BS!!!
You need to read these scientific papers that PROVE that's impossible.
 
Renew1 said:
John just blew his brains out using these bullets.

Impossible, those are non-lethal bullets!

I watched him load the gun and do it.

BS!!!
You need to read these scientific papers that PROVE that's impossible.
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I honestly have no clue what you're trying to say...
 
"I'll butt out of this thread as it's clear my opinions are not very welcome by the long time members."

First-hand experience has shown this to be untrue.
 
StarScream66 said:
I honestly have no clue what you're trying to say...
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“According to all known laws of aviation, there is no way that a bee should be able to fly.
Its wings are too small to get its fat little body off the ground. The bee, of course, flies anyways.
Because bees don't care what humans think is impossible.”
 
Renew1 said:
"I'll butt out of this thread as it's clear my opinions are not very welcome by the long time members."

First-hand experience has shown this to be untrue.
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I'm not trying to turn this into a flame war with you. I read a lot of your posts on here and you make some very valid points and have a great deal of knowledge.

I'm simply trying to understand what argument you're trying to make. You're just all over the place with these... anecdotes about someone being shot, so therefore you need a study?

What I'm asking is this: what specific point do you disagree with me on?

It seems to me you have a biased opinion that cannot be changed no matter what evidence to the contrary is shown to you. And for some reason, this discussion seems to offend you greatly, which baffles me. We're just talking on a bodybuilding forum about a prohormone.

Invalid Link Removed​

justhere4comm said:
“According to all known laws of aviation, there is no way that a bee should be able to fly.
Its wings are too small to get its fat little body off the ground. The bee, of course, flies anyways.
Because bees don't care what humans think is impossible.”
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Now you're just posting nonsense for the sake of nonsense. If you can't make a logical argument, I don't know what you're doing here.

Anyway, I'm going to sleep. You guys enjoy yourselves... 🙄
 
That was a logical argument.

Maybe you had an 11beta-hydroxylase and 21-hydroxylase deficiency?
These things don't behave the same in everyone, as there are more factors involved.
Talk about having a 'belief bias'.

For example: when a pro hormone has a two-step conversion; a whole lot can happen between here and Dorthy's house...
wink-wink; nudge; nudge; say-no-more-say-no-more; eh? <-- You won't get this either.
 
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StarScream66 said:
Science > anecdotal experience. Period.
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This is a great topic in itself.

Anyway...I dont think this is necessarily a black/white either/or comparison. Anecdote and science can quite easily co-exist even when they seem to contradict.

Most of us here are concerned with end-point, percievable effects and results. Some end-points (no estrogen sides, in this instance for example) on the face of it appear to be contrary to what science posits is the biochemical "pathway". That pathway can indeed be correct, in as much as what science proposes is a very clear-cut model.

But no model is a perfect replica of nor a replacement for the territory, nomsayin? Each individual will process chemicals slightly (or significantly) differently...with the upshot of there being a range of endpoint results. These dont falsify the scientific model at all. Anecdote merely demonstrates what most of us ultimately care about (results, consequences).
 
JoePaul39 said:
A good combo would be 1000 mg Epianro and 330 mg of both one andro and 4 Andro. Have an AI on hand, but you probably won’t need it at 1000 mg Epi Andro due to the fact it converts to DHT which will lower estradiol/estrogen.
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this is quite literally my exact first cycle - I logged it on AM (OP - if you find it there was loads of detail etc).

1,000mg epiandro is a standard dose, most get nothing from it below 600 and 1000 is my personal sweet spot.

the problem with science is that very often it contradicts itself. Which is better for fat loss - fasted cardio or fed cardio? You’ll find studies supporting both. Does meal timing matter? Again studies for yes and no. At one time studies showed aas didn’t give a performance advantage 😂

the affect of aas is so highly individual with so many variables and different affects down chain (bare in mind that we are dealing with virtually every major system in the body when you take this stuff) that it’s impossible to look at any individual effect and say that the outcome will be xxx because of that.

look at hormesis, basically something that is toxic/harmful to the human body produces long term benefits. If you only considered the immediate effect/situation you’d assume it was a bad thing but down stream reactions show it’s the opposite.
 
which brand was that 11oxo TD ?
 
Wow this blew up haha... I read that when stacking the andros it is more effective to take lesser dosages of each due to the enzymatic conversion limitations. I.E. instead of 600 mg 1-andro, one would do 300 mg 1-andro and 300 mg 4-andro (arbitrary numbers).
 
aman88 said:
Wow this blew up haha... I read that when stacking the andros it is more effective to take lesser dosages of each due to the enzymatic conversion limitations. I.E. instead of 600 mg 1-andro, one would do 300 mg 1-andro and 300 mg 4-andro (arbitrary numbers).
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You'll run out of money LONNGGG before your body runs out of the ability to convert PHs.
 
Renew1 said:
You'll run out of money LONNGGG before your body runs out of the ability to convert PHs.
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Haha that appears to be the current issue with the Andros... you’ll run out of money before... usually you get a dose that works...
 
Science is a great tool and is certainly right most of the time. Experience and real life use has often proven science wrong though. Science isn’t a god written law, it’s made by humans and humans make mistakes.
 
Mathb33 said:
Science is a great tool and is certainly right most of the time. Experience and real life use has often proven science wrong though. Science isn’t a god written law, it’s made by humans and humans make mistakes.
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And each person's chemistry / hormones / and a host of other variables make a larger sampling in any case study necessary but it doesn't cover everyone. Some are hyper responsive like me, and others are non-responders. Please explain every case of non-responders with science... (edit: Last bit directed towards Mr. Science, lol... migraines hurt)
 
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justhere4comm said:
And each person's chemistry / hormones / and a host of other variables make a larger sampling in any case study necessary but it doesn't cover everyone. Some are hyper responsive like me, and others are non-responders. Please explain every case of non-responders with science... (edit: Last bit directed towards Mr. Science, lol... migraines hurt)
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That is spot on... and non responders is pretty easy to explain in theory... lack of absorption from GI tract (if oral), lack of enzyme to convert hormones, body simply saying get this sh*t the f**k out of me... theres a lot... this goes for caffeine, creatine, vitamins, minerals, etc etc... that is why hrt is usually transdermal or intravenous... also there is no conversion to testosterone because it is testosterone haha...

As for 4-andro it converts to androstenedione and androstenediol... the first can convert to both testosterone and estrogen, the later testosterone... so if someone takes 4-andro and their body converts it first to JUST androstenediol then they will get results more on part with increased testosterone. If their body largely converts it to androstenedione then they may get conversion to both testosterone and estrogen...

That is the issue with these multiple step converters you have no idea what they will end up as... case with 4-andro an AI on cycle might not even help.
 
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I think all my conversion enzymes have been exhausted in reading the arguments in this thread.
Anybody have a method to up-regulate enzyme production? :)
 
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