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Aleksandar37 said:
Am I remembering incorrectly or weren't you one of the ones that got into bitcoin?
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I own some various crypto's yes. I never got hardcore into it but I have a portfolio and also use bitcoin for transactions when needed.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Ok. I just wanted to point out that hyperinflation has happened in our lifetime. If you’re just saying it has never happened SOLELY/PRIMARILY as the result of an otherwise not-already-in-a-crisis country simply printing money for social programs/etc, then that’s fair.
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Using the argument of hyper-inflation doesnt make regular inflation ok, it just desensitized people on the idea of it.
 
Aleksandar37 said:
Isn't this an example of it happening? Invalid Link Removed
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I don't see anywhere that says they printed money to provide UBI, fund a social safety net, etc but they may have been doing some of that. That being said, the war itself caused a ton of supply shortages that again caused those with assets to liquidate said assets to pay inflated costs of goods in short supply. This pumps a ton of extra liquidity into the market which then devalues the currency that was in circulation prior.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Ok. I just wanted to point out that hyperinflation has happened in our lifetime. If you’re just saying it has never happened SOLELY/PRIMARILY as the result of an otherwise not-already-in-a-crisis country simply printing money for social programs/etc, then that’s fair.
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Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's always shocks on the supply side causing a need for asset dumping, not too much liquidity on the consumer side that came from stimulus, social programs, ubi, etc.
 
ax1 said:
I own some various crypto's yes. I never got hardcore into it but I have a portfolio and also use bitcoin for transactions when needed.
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I just found it funny that you keep talking about printing money and maybe my understanding of cryptocurrency is incorrect, but it seems even more abstract than a system backed by gold...as long as there is enough gold to back it up!
 
nostrum420 said:
That much shouldn't be circulating but that's not to say it never should have been printed. Basically, after a collapse of oil prices and economic sanctions, everyone liquidated all of their assets. Imagine the waltons selling every walmart at once. All of a sudden there would be a metric fuckton of extra cash in the system and you'd have hyper inflation. It doesn't mean that the value of those properties should never have been represented as currency.
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The gold standard backed dollar was abolished in 1971 just 2 years before the oil crisis. Im not an economist major, but that possibly had an effect on the dollar since.
 
Aleksandar37 said:
I just found it funny that you keep talking about printing money and maybe my understanding of cryptocurrency is incorrect, but it seems even more abstract than a system backed by gold...as long as there is enough gold to back it up!
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Cryptocurrency is all over the place and different philosophies are behind various projects such as XRP used to liquidate and transfer huge assets quickly overseas, and other cryptos using for various types of "smart contracts," privacy and even competition to the dollar, etc....

Some crypto's take a tremendous amount of energy to mine and transfer such as bitcoin others are just "pre-mined" and released into the markets.
 
ax1 said:
The gold standard backed dollar was abolished in 1971 just 2 years before the oil crisis. Im not an economist major, but that possibly had an effect on the dollar since.
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I know it's easier to grasp but the gold standard makes no sense. Some little country somewhere strikes gold and the GDP of an entire G7 nation is devalued. And your mad about centrally managed inflation devaluing your currency?
 
muscleupcrohn said:
But most currencies are not backed by gold...
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The only currency authorized by the US Constitution is Gold and Silver as far as I know, so the entire system is a huge oath violator. Its controversial I know and there is back and forth to both sides of the debate and its interpretation then you add the terms "legal tender" whatever its all rigged today thats what I know.
 
ax1 said:
The only currency authorized by the US Constitution is Gold and Silver as far as I know, so the entire system is a huge oath violator. Its controversial I know and there is back and forth to both sides of the debate and its interpretation then you add the terms "legal tender" whatever its all rigged today thats what I know.
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I don't think that's a thing...

Article 1 Section 8, Congress shall have power "To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures".

I don't know of constitutional limitations or guidelines to this power.
 
nostrum420 said:
I know it's easier to grasp but the gold standard makes no sense. Some little country somewhere strikes gold and the GDP of an entire G7 nation is devalued. And your mad about centrally managed inflation devaluing your currency?
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It takes alot more effort to mine that gold then some kindergarten kid to hit buttons and make it out of thin air. 1 takes work and energy, the other takes a few strokes of a finger.

If I was frozen for 200 years, woke up knowing what year it was and I found 2 safes, 1 had the US dollar the other had the equivalent of gold 200 years prior Ill just go for the gold. You can have the cash.
 
nostrum420 said:
I know it's easier to grasp but the gold standard makes no sense. Some little country somewhere strikes gold and the GDP of an entire G7 nation is devalued. And your mad about centrally managed inflation devaluing your currency?
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The idea of having something tangible to backup a fiat currency isn’t some inherently terrible idea though. Maybe not having a single “weight” behind it though, just like a country probably shouldn’t have their entire economy depend on a single commodity (Venezuela may be relevant again here).
 
nostrum420 said:
I don't think that's a thing...

Article 1 Section 8, Congress shall have power "To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures".

I don't know of constitutional limitations or guidelines to this power.
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plus keep reading on....Invalid Link Removed of the Constitution explicitly forbids the states from issuing "bills of credit" (promissory notes) or making anything but gold and silver coin legal "tender"
 
ax1 said:
It takes alot more effort to mine that gold then some kindergarten kid to hit buttons and make it out of thin air. 1 takes work and energy, the other takes a few strokes of a finger.

If I was frozen for 200 years, woke up knowing what year it was and I found 2 safes, 1 had the US dollar the other had the equivalent of gold 200 years prior Ill just go for the gold. You can have the cash.
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But what happens when there's not enough gold to represent all the other types of wealth society has created?
 
muscleupcrohn said:
The idea of having something tangible to backup a fiat currency isn’t some inherently terrible idea though. Maybe not having a single “weight” behind it though, just like a country probably shouldn’t have their entire economy depend on a single commodity (Venezuela may be relevant again here).
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Summing up all those different material things is what we refer to as GDP.
 
nostrum420 said:
But what happens when there's not enough gold to represent all the other types of wealth society has created?
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The value goes up as much as it needs to instead of devaluing the crap out of it by printing it with magic.
 
nostrum420 said:
Summing up all those different material things is what we refer to as GDP.
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Yes, but “in theory” there’s nothing stopping a country from printing way too much money is I think the point people are making. Granted, any country with half a brain wouldn’t just print, say, a septillion dollars and say they now have enough money to buy every citizen a Ferrari, so maybe it’s more a hypothetical point than a practical one?
 
ax1 said:
plus keep reading on....Invalid Link Removed of the Constitution explicitly forbids the states from issuing "bills of credit" (promissory notes) or making anything but gold and silver coin legal "tender"
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That's just saying that individual states can't print money, only the federal government. So, if a state wants to settle a debt they have to do it with assets or federal currency. They can't print their own currency and assign value to it, they have to abide by the weights and measures set forth by the federal congress.
 
nostrum420 said:
But what happens when there's not enough gold to represent all the other types of wealth society has created?
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Just want to add then you can also have trade along with currencies being produced by both the private sector and society, such as we see today with crypto. The Constitution's law applies to the government.
 
nostrum420 said:
That's just saying that individual states can't print money, only the federal government. So, if a state wants to settle a debt they have to do it with assets or federal currency. They can't print their own currency and assign value to it, they have to abide by the weights and measures set forth by the federal congress.
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You may be right here, Article 1 section 8 isnt specific with the Fed, I see that.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Yes, but “in theory” there’s nothing stopping a country from printing way too much money is I think the point people are making. Granted, any country with half a brain wouldn’t just print, say, a septillion dollars and say they now have enough money to buy every citizen a Ferrari, so maybe it’s more a hypothetical point than a practical one?
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It's a valid concern. I'm just here to assuage you of that concern. It's never happened generally because there's always some unrepresented wealth in an economy. The situation you're describing is one where unemployment is 0, factories are working day and night, etc, and then the gov prints more dollars than the sum total of all of that wealth creation. It's like a star trek utopian problem to have it's never occurred in actual history.
 
nostrum420 said:
You'd get to point where a spec of gold could buy a Ferrari. It's just not feasible.
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A spec is a spec....you can use specs on tamper proof coins or something, it works. Even if its a atom, or half and atom, or splitting an atom to a thousands atoms. Its not feasible from the point we are standing today but its entirely doable once you think about it.
 
ax1 said:
Just want to add then you can also have trade along with currencies being produced by both the private sector and society, such as we see today with crypto. The Constitution's law applies to the government.
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I think you just made my point for me. Wealth is created all the time independent of how much of a given metal happens to be around.
 
ax1 said:
A spec is a spec....you can use specs on tamper proof coins or something, it works. Even if its a atom, or half and atom, or splitting an atom to a thousands atoms. Its not feasible from the point we are standing today but its entirely doable once you think about it.
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No, that's what feasible vs possible means. You're saying it's possible. You're right. It's not feasible to get all the super accurate scales you'd need to all the right places. If a little gold dust blew away in the wind, you'd have a global economic collapse.
 
nostrum420 said:
I think you just made my point for me. Wealth is created all the time independent of how much of a given metal happens to be around.
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Yeah sure, we can create wealth in various ways I agree. There is a difference between government issued currency and the way goods and services are traded independently between people. Then its heavily regulated because government hates competition and wants to track it as much as possible so they can steal it from us.
 
nostrum420 said:
No, that's what feasible vs possible means. You're saying it's possible. You're right. It's not feasible to get all the super accurate scales you'd need to all the right places. If a little gold dust blew away in the wind, you'd have a global economic collapse.
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I say its easier and far more cost efficient than the sophisticated paper money they print and give out to the public.
 
ax1 said:
Yeah sure, we can create wealth in various ways I agree. There is a difference between government issued currency and the way goods and services are traded independently between people. Then its heavily regulated because government hates competition and wants to track it as much as possible so they can steal it from us.
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You're describing black markets.
 
ax1 said:
I say its easier and far more cost efficient than the sophisticated paper money they print and give out to the public.
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It is and that's why we used that system for as long as possible. It's just no longer accurate because the majority of business is now conducted in state sanctioned markets.
 
nostrum420 said:
It's a valid concern. I'm just here to assuage you of that concern. It's never happened generally because there's always some unrepresented wealth in an economy. The situation you're describing is one where unemployment is 0, factories are working day and night, etc, and then the gov prints more dollars than the sum total of all of that wealth creation. It's like a star trek utopian problem to have it's never occurred in actual history.
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Is there any other time in history that matches what they have been doing these past 12 years? Have they printed out trillions of dollars and secretly sent it out globally with no power to audit or get details on who got what? And endlessly pumping artificial money to prop up the economy?
 
nostrum420 said:
It is and that's why we used that system for as long as possible. It's just no longer accurate because the majority of business is now conducted in state sanctioned markets.
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Your not winning me over because the system right now straight sucks. Its not your fault, Im not blaming you this is what we have and make the most out of it, I always look for better solutions to our problems and both of ours is probably better than the way its run now.
 
ax1 said:
Is there any other time in history that matches what they have been doing these past 12 years? Have they printed out trillions of dollars and secretly sent it out globally with no power to audit or get details on who got what? And endlessly pumping artificial money to prop up the economy?
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Umm yeah, governments throughout time have been able to coin money and have been answerable to no one as to how it's disbursed.
 
nostrum420 said:
Umm yeah, governments throughout time have been able to coin money and have been answerable to no one as to how it's disbursed.
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And they all have collapse and wiped into oblivion. So lets not make that happen again. Support Audit the Fed movement.
 
ax1 said:
Your not winning me over because the system right now straight sucks. Its not your fault, Im not blaming you this is what we have and make the most out of it, I always look for better solutions to our problems and both of ours is probably better than the way its run now.
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Striving for a better solution is admirable but I think you need to go forward not backwards to the gold standard. I'm not saying modern GDP calculations are perfect but as you said, we're stuck with what we've got and they're the best we have until you revolutionize modern money theory for us.
 
nostrum420 said:
Striving for a better solution is admirable but I think you need to go forward not backwards to the gold standard. I'm not saying modern GDP calculations are perfect but as you said, we're stuck with what we've got and they're the best we have until you revolutionize modern money theory for us.
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With tech we are on a cusp of serious change too, and with that Im talking about the potential of eliminating money as a whole and going only digital. I think if I recall they incorporated funds to digital currency research i the Corona bill....if you think about it, its all about ending the spread of germs and this could be potentially what they leverage to pull it off. If it happens or not, I have no idea Im leaning towards unlikely in the next 5 years. At least it may transition.

In China digital payment the past couple of years is so vast people look at you funny when you use cash. Even street vendors take WeChat pay or Alicash. They dont want cash. This to me shows me its going to happen....although personally I dont like it.
 
Aleksandar37 said:
Sweet, I learned something today...and it is terrifying!
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This explains some of our middle east involvement and all wars since, no its not all because of the elimination of the gold standard but it has its own influences on how we established absolute permanence there.

From wiki:
The petrodollar system originated in the early 1970s in the wake of the Invalid Link Removed collapse. President Invalid Link Removed and his Secretary of State, Invalid Link Removed, feared that the abandonment of the international gold standard under the Bretton Woods arrangement (combined with a growing US trade deficit, and massive debt associated with the ongoing Vietnam War) would cause a decline in the relative global demand of the U.S. dollar.Invalid Link Removed In a series of meetings, the United States — represented by then U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger — and the Saudi royal family made an agreement. The United States would offer Invalid Link Removed for Invalid Link Removed, and in return the Saudis would price their oil sales exclusively in United States dollars (in other words, the Saudis were to refuse all other currencies, except the U.S. dollar, as payment for their oil exports).

By 1975, all of the oil-producing nations of Invalid Link Removed had agreed to price their oil in dollars and to invest surplus oil proceeds in U.S. government debt securities in exchange for similar offers by the U.S.Invalid Link Removed

This is how money looked in the early 20s, it was stamped as a Gold Certificate and on the bottom says "In Gold Coin Payable To The Bearer on Demand." I think the top side or somewhere else of significance its stamped as United States Note rather than Federal Reserve Note, its hard to see it and Im lazy to keep digging for good images.


193508


I would absolutely love to own a stack of these some day! Imagine going to the grocery store in 1934 and whipping out one of these, you can probably buy an entire village.

193509
 
On another note, after finding out work was done to the website again over the weekend, I was finally able to go through the IRS website and enter information to get paid. They didnt have direct deposit for us even though it was supposed to.

There is a weekly schedule that extends the final physical checks finally being sent out on September the 11th !!!! Poor people are hit hard thats for sure waiting around for money so long. Most still havent gotten a penny yet and unemployment is another issue.

  • Less than $10,000: April 24
  • $10,001 - $20,000: May 1
  • $20,001 - $30,000: May 8
  • $30,001 - $40,000: May 15
  • $40,001 - $50,000: May 22
  • $50,001 - $60,000: May 29
  • $60,001 - $70,000: June 5
  • $70,001 - $80,000: June 12
  • $80,001 - $90,000: June 19
  • $90,001 - $100,000: June 26
  • $100,001 - $110,000: July 3
  • $110,001 - $120,000: July 10
  • $120,001 - $130,000: July 17
  • $130,001- $140,000: July 24
  • $140,001 - $150,000: July 31
  • $150,001 - $160,000: August 7
  • $160,001 - $170,000: August 14
  • $170,001 - $180,000: August 21
  • $180,001 - $190,000: August 28
  • $190,001 - $198,000: September 4
  • Remaining checks: September 11
Read More: Invalid Link Removed | Invalid Link Removed
 
Yeah, "backing" a currency with any commodity doesn't really make sense. A need for currency to be created is reliant upon wealth being created, not upon an increase in some arbitrary commodity.
 
nostrum420 said:
Yeah, "backing" a currency with any commodity doesn't really make sense. A need for currency to be created is reliant upon wealth being created, not upon an increase in some arbitrary commodity.
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Just go to gold and silver coins, forget the "backing" and forgeddaboutit.
 
nostrum420 said:
Yeah, "backing" a currency with any commodity doesn't really make sense. A need for currency to be created is reliant upon wealth being created, not upon an increase in some arbitrary commodity.
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But really, the creators of it need to be at least audited and have better checks and balances. The system is 23 trillion dollars in debt both government and corporate and its really a dangerous time and everybodies life savings is raped from them every time they print it. Its a con job. You only end up oppressing the poor and middle class.
 
You know what we should do? Print some more fcukin money! Get it to the poor and middle class. Fcuk the rich.
$6500 per person. Do it. They'll spend it on what they need and keep business in business! The rich just hoard their money and hide it in collectible sh*t. They don't trickle down anything but sh*t and p*ss.
 
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