PCT And TRT

[Slims]

I'm looking to run a cycle of 1-Andro (330mg) and TD Epi-Andro (500mg+). I'm also on Dr prescribed TRT, at 100mg of TD Testosterone per day.
I would like to know how to PCT when on HRT/TRT?

Thank You

 

[Smont]

I'm looking to run a cycle of 1-Andro (330mg) and TD Epi-Andro (500mg+). I'm also on Dr prescribed TRT, at 100mg of TD Testosterone per day.
I would like to know how to PCT when on HRT/TRT?

Thank You

You don't pct, you just continue your trt. That's it

 

[Smont]

I'm looking to run a cycle of 1-Andro (330mg) and TD Epi-Andro (500mg+). I'm also on Dr prescribed TRT, at 100mg of TD Testosterone per day.
I would like to know how to PCT when on HRT/TRT?

Thank You

And if you want that cycle to be worthwhile then make sure you have enough to run for 8 weeks

 

[81dcs]

You don't pct, you just continue your trt. That's it

Yep. And keep a serm around. U should be straight. Maybe liver care.

 

[Toren]

Your PCT would consist of: your regular dose of TRT, and then any organ/lipid/bp support you wish to take. You could also add in a natty anabolic to try and help maintain some of the gains you made on cycle.

Having a SERM and AI on-hand when cycling is always recommended.

 

[81dcs]

Your PCT would consist of: your regular dose of TRT, and then any organ/lipid/bp support you wish to take. You could also add in a natty anabolic to try and help maintain some of the gains you made on cycle.

Having a SERM and AI on-hand when cycling is always recommended.

What would be good for bp ?

 

[Toren]

What would be good for bp ?

Rx meds. Hawthorne berry extract. Celery seed extract. Pde5 inhibitors. Nitrates. Water. Cardio. Potassium/magnesium.

Possibly also arginine, nattokinase, baby aspirin (before bed), garlic extract, melatonin (before bed).

 

[Slims]

And if you want that cycle to be worthwhile then make sure you have enough to run for 8 weeks

It'll be 8-12 weeks

Your PCT would consist of: your regular dose of TRT, and then any organ/lipid/bp support you wish to take. You could also add in a natty anabolic to try and help maintain some of the gains you made on cycle.

Having a SERM and AI on-hand when cycling is always recommended.

I'll run either BLR's Vector or OL's K1ngs Slayer as a post cycle natty anabolic. I'll have Aromasin as an AI.
What purpose dose the SERM serve if I'm already shut down from my TRT?

 

[81dcs]

Just my case ....gyno

 

[Toren]

^ Gyno can definitely sneak up on you; especially when you don't have things dialed in, or don't understand how your body responds to hormonal fluctuations. Most times an AI is enough to prevent lumps from forming but will not always be successful once the lumps have already formed. I've seen guys crash their estrogen and still have binding issues ( E2 to ER). A combination of a SERM and an AI will work best in that scenario, and in my opinion, mild to moderate dosing of both is better (all around) and more successful than just using one or the other.

 

[JoePaul39]

^ Gyno can definitely sneak up on you; especially when you don't have things dialed in, or don't understand how your body responds to hormonal fluctuations. Most times an AI is enough to prevent lumps from forming but will not always be successful once the lumps have already formed. I've seen guys crash their estrogen and still have binding issues ( E2 to ER). A combination of a SERM and an AI will work best in that scenario, and in my opinion, mild to moderate dosing of both is better (all around) and more successful than just using one or the other.

I am on trt too and at a future date might run the andros after my Sarms run and appropriate off cycle time. He can get gyno even though he is only running Epi Andro and 1 andro, both of which don’t aromatize?

 

[JoePaul39]

^ Gyno can definitely sneak up on you; especially when you don't have things dialed in, or don't understand how your body responds to hormonal fluctuations. Most times an AI is enough to prevent lumps from forming but will not always be successful once the lumps have already formed. I've seen guys crash their estrogen and still have binding issues ( E2 to ER). A combination of a SERM and an AI will work best in that scenario, and in my opinion, mild to moderate dosing of both is better (all around) and more successful than just using one or the other.

Are there typically symptoms of the gyno such as pain or itching before lumps would form?

 

[Toren]

I am on trt too and at a future date might run the andros after my Sarms run and appropriate off cycle time. He can get gyno even though he is only running Epi Andro and 1 andro, both of which don’t aromatize?

While not necessaryily a likely outcome, sure, it can happen. It's not necessarily the amount of estrogen that causes gyno but the amount of estrogen in relation to other hormones and estrogen receptor (ER) antagonists. The scenarios by which one can have estrogen issues are many.

Scenario one - user takes wet steroids and doesn't use an AI. We know what can happen here.

Scenario two - user undertakes a solo, dht-based steroid cycle (ex. Epistane). The body is suppressed and there is less T to convert to E. The body thinks it needs E and then tries to create more T. When that fails, it might undertake other means by which to raise E. This may happen by upregulating production of the aromatase enzyme. It may also happen by increasing sensitivity of the receptor itself. This is often times seen in women who have taken AIs or SERMs in the treatment of breast cancer. The receptor wants E but can't get it. Next step, increase the density of ERs in specific tissue or increase the sensitivity of the receptor to the hormone itself (at the cellular level).

Scenario three - user undertakes an 8 week solo SARM cycle. There is some suppression. Again, these hormonal fluctuations, which are outside of the normal range (homeostasis) that the body tries to stay within, cause the body to undergo "changes". The increased regulation of proteins, enzymes, hormones, receptor sensitivity all takes place. The SARM lowers SHBG which means there is more free Estrogen available to bind to the ER. Increased transcription takes place at a cellular level. The body starts to create breast tissue.

Scenario four - user undertakes a SARM or steroid cycle. The hormonal balance of the body is thrown out of wack. Again, the body starts doing things trying to put things back in place. On top of that, this same user is taking a 5aR inhibitor (finasteride) for hair loss. The finasteride drastically lowers DHT levels in the body. DHT is a known competitive antagonist of the ER. So, you have suppression, less T. You have lowered SHBG, more free E. Then, you remove 70% of the DHT in the body. That's a bad scenario.

High levels of E for sure can cause over-expression of the ER. But, one can have gyno-like symptoms even when E is within range or drastically lowered via usage of an AI. The hormonal balance is more important than the specific Estrogen "number" on a reference range.

Another thing to consider, the body may not have issues while on cycle but can for sure have them after. We often times see people have lumps form months after steroid cycles. The imbalance created while on cycle may linger for months after.

Are there typically symptoms of the gyno such as pain or itching before lumps would form?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Most people will notice tenderness, itchiness etc. Sometimes they just seem to come out of nowhere. The first time I delth with a lump was when using a SARM, with nothing that aromatized. I'm well-prepared, always have necessary ancillaries on-hand, and consider myself to be fairly knowledgeable. And still, that little lump snuck up on me. By the time I noticed tenderness, there was already a small nodule forming. There were no outwardly visible signs. A potentail lump may also be closer to the surface or further away, depending on the biology of the individual.

 

[Toren]

I am on trt too and at a future date might run the andros after my Sarms run and appropriate off cycle time. He can get gyno even though he is only running Epi Andro and 1 andro, both of which don’t aromatize?

In his specific scenario, if it (gyno) were to happen, it would more likely happen after cycle as opposed to while on cycle.

 

[JoePaul39]

While not necessaryily a likely outcome, sure, it can happen. It's not necessarily the amount of estrogen that causes gyno but the amount of estrogen in relation to other hormones and estrogen receptor (ER) antagonists. The scenarios by which one can have estrogen issues are many.

Scenario one - user takes wet steroids and doesn't use an AI. We know what can happen here.

Scenario two - user undertakes a solo, dht-based steroid cycle (ex. Epistane). The body is suppressed and there is less T to convert to E. The body thinks it needs E and then tries to create more T. When that fails, it might undertake other means by which to raise E. This may happen by upregulating production of the aromatase enzyme. It may also happen by increasing sensitivity of the receptor itself. This is often times seen in women who have taken AI or SERMs in the treatment of breast cancer. The receptor wants E but can't get it. Next step, increase the density of ERs in specific tissue or increase the sensitivity of the receptor to the hormone itself (at the cellular level).

Scenario three - user undertakes an 8 week solo SARM cycle. There is some suppression. Again, these hormonal fluctuations, which are outside of the normal range (homeostasis) that the body tries to stay within, cause the body to undergo "changes". The increased regulation of proteins, enzymes, hormones, receptor sensitivity all takes place. The SARM lowers SHBG which means there is more free Estrogen available to bind to the ER. Increased transcription takes place at a cellular level. The body starts to create breast tissue.

Scenario four - user undertakes a SARM or steroid cycle. The hormonal balance of the body is thrown out of wack. Again, the body starts doing things trying to put thing back in place. On top of that, this same user is taking a 5aR inhibitor (finasteride) for hair loss. The finasteride drastically lowers DHT levels in the body. DHT is a known competitive antagonist of the ER. So, you have suppression, less T. You have lowered SHBG, more free E. Then, you remove 70% of the DHT in the body. That's a bad scenario.

High levels of E for sure can cause over-expression of the ER. But, one can have gyno-like symptoms even when E is within range or drastically lowered via usage of an AI. The hormonal balance is more important than the specific Estrogen "number" on a reference range.

Another thing to consider, the body may not have issues while on cycle but can for sure have them after. We often times see people have lumps form months after steroid cycles. The imbalance created while on cycle may linger for months after.




Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Most people will notice tenderness, itchiness etc. Sometimes they just seem to come out of nowhere. The first time I delth with a lump was when using a SARM, with nothing that aromatized. I'm well-prepared, always have necessary ancillaries on-hand, and consider myself to be fairly knowledgeable. And still, that little lump snuck up on me. By the time I noticed tenderness, there was already a small nodule forming. There were no outwardly visible signs. A potentail lump may also be closer to the surface or further away, depending on the biology of the individual.

Very informative post. The body is certainly a complicated system which doesn’t always respond how we would like when we are messing with our hormones. High risk business. Toren where did you get such in depth knowledge of anabolics? Any specific books you can recommend? I have leaneded a lot via this forum over the past year and also purchased William Liewellyn’s Anabolics reference book which is a great resource, but still have much to learn.

 

[Toren]

Very informative post. The body is certainly a complicated system which doesn’t always respond how we would like when we are messing with our hormones. High risk business. Toren where did you get such in depth knowledge of anabolics? Any specific books you can recommend? I have leaneded a lot via this forum over the past year and also purchased William Liewellyn’s Anabolics reference book which is a great resource, but still have much to learn.

I have quite a bit of literature in my stash but to be honest, I haven't read 99.9% of it and likely never will. This is a hobby to me and as such I read up on topics when I'm curious or if there is a specific question I need answered. I have a solid general understanding on anabolics and the endocrine system but I don't think it's in-depth by any means. There are people on the boards, often times who don't post very much, who would put my knowledge to shame. I'm guessing those types of people are financially invested in knowing about these things, becasue of their eduction or career path. There are specific areas where I have focused more of my research, certainly; most often because it applies to my situation.

My suggestion to you or anyone who wants to learn, is to spend less time wading in the forum manutia, and more time researching (on the www) topics that come up in threads that you do not know the answer to. If someone asks a question you can't answer, take that question and use it as a springboard to learn more. Often times, searching out the answer to a quick question will lead me into hours or days (sporadic) of reading on a particular topic. The knowledge comes over time, and most often out of necessity as it pertains to you.

Learning about steroids is good, especially if you are going to use them, but better is to learn about the endocrine system and major organs and how they responds to stressors on a cellular level. It takes time.

 

[Slims]

^ Gyno can definitely sneak up on you; especially when you don't have things dialed in, or don't understand how your body responds to hormonal fluctuations. Most times an AI is enough to prevent lumps from forming but will not always be successful once the lumps have already formed. I've seen guys crash their estrogen and still have binding issues ( E2 to ER). A combination of a SERM and an AI will work best in that scenario, and in my opinion, mild to moderate dosing of both is better (all around) and more successful than just using one or the other.

I would think that the possibility of on-cycle gyno would be minimal, considering the compounds I'm running as neither can convert to estrogen and Epi-Andro had anti estrogen proporties.
Should I run the SERM and Aromasin as a normal PCT, i.e.
Clomid-50/25/25/25/12.5
Or
Nolva-40/40/20/20/10
+
Aromasin 6.25ED

 

[Toren]

I would think that the possibility of on-cycle gyno would be minimal, considering the compounds I'm running as neither can convert to estrogen and Epi-Andro had anti estrogen proporties.
Should I run the SERM and Aromasin as a normal PCT, i.e.
Clomid-50/25/25/25/12.5
Or
Nolva-40/40/20/20/10
+
Aromasin 6.25ED

The chances are minimal, yes; especilly since you're on a steady dose of TRT throughout.

Since you are on TRT, there is no need to add those drugs into the equation after your cycle. It's good to have them on hand for a "just-in-case" situation.

 

[Slims]

Since you are on TRT, there is no need to add those drugs into the equation after your cycle. It's good to have them on hand for a "just-in-case" situation.

So basically introduce the SERM if I get signs of gyno?

Any idea how long I'd need to come off the Andro's before my next TRT bloodwork check up?

 

[Toren]

So basically introduce the SERM if I get signs of gyno?

Any idea how long I'd need to come off the Andro's before my next TRT bloodwork check up?

That's what I would do. A SERM/AI combination is proven to work.

That depends, what are they checking for? 1-DHEA and Epi-Andro will not directly play a role in T levels but they can indirectly affect levels of various hormones. That combination may also change your lipid (cholesterol) profile. There's no way I can give you a definitive answer, and I'm not on TRT either, but if it were me, I'd probably want to be at least 4-6 weeks clear of my next bloodwork checkup, just to be safe.

 

[JoePaul39]

That's what I would do. A SERM/AI combination is proven to work.

That depends, what are they checking for? 1-DHEA and Epi-Andro will not directly play a role in T levels but they can indirectly affect levels of various hormones. That combination may also change your lipid (cholesterol) profile. There's no way I can give you a definitive answer, and I'm not on TRT either, but if it were me, I'd probably want to be at least 4-6 weeks clear of my next bloodwork checkup, just to be safe.

I am on trt like him. As part of testing my doctor checks twice a year my psa blood levels for my prostate. I would think if a test occurred while on a cycle of Epi Andro it could be impacted since I believe dht may have prostate growth effects.

 

[JoePaul39]

The chances are minimal, yes; especilly since you're on a steady dose of TRT throughout.

Since you are on TRT, there is no need to add those drugs into the equation after your cycle. It's good to have them on hand for a "just-in-case" situation.

Good to hear being on trt decreases probability of gyno.

 

[Slims]

That depends, what are they checking for? 1-DHEA and Epi-Andro will not directly play a role in T levels but they can indirectly affect levels of various hormones. That combination may also change your lipid (cholesterol) profile. There's no way I can give you a definitive answer, and I'm not on TRT either, but if it were me, I'd probably want to be at least 4-6 weeks clear of my next bloodwork checkup, just to be safe.

I think what I'm asking is, what is the half life of these Andro's? They check for
Total Testosterone
Free Testosterone
Oestradiol
Prolactin
SHBG
Free Androgen Index

 

[Toren]

I am on trt like him. As part of testing my doctor checks twice a year my psa blood levels for my prostate. I would think if a test occurred while on a cycle of Epi Andro it could be impacted since I believe dht may have prostate growth effects.

I would think both androgens could potentially affect psa levels.

Good to hear being on trt decreases probability of gyno.

To be more specififc, I'm suggesting that having a solid and steady base of Testosterone/Estrogen should help to eliminate wild fluctuations in hormones while on cycle. This should help to keep the hormonal balance steady and lessen the likelihood of issues.

I think what I'm asking is, what is the half life of these Andro's? They check for
Total Testosterone
Free Testosterone
Oestradiol
Prolactin
SHBG
Free Androgen Index

The half-life of the DHEAs is short, as in a few hours for each. Just understand that exogenous hormones will affect the hormonal balance, and that balance does not just return to normal right after the andros are metabolized. That's why I suggest giving a few weeks of time off beforehand. I would personally be cautious with having my doctor mess with my TRT protocol if it was working.

 

[Slims]

The half-life of the DHEAs is short, as in a few hours for each. That's why I suggest giving a few weeks of time off beforehand. I would personally be cautious with having my doctor mess with my TRT protocol if it was working.

After waiting four yeara to get it, I don't want to loose it. So if my bloods, were every 6 months I could potentially do 16 week cycles with one month clean post bloods (just incase they needed a re-test) and one month clean pre-bloods to clear any Andro detection?

 

[JoePaul39]

After waiting four yeara to get it, I don't want to loose it. So if my bloods, were every 6 months I could potentially do 16 week cycles with one month clean post bloods (just incase they needed a re-test) and one month clean pre-bloods to clear any Andro detection?

You aren’t contemplating running andros for 16 weeks straight are you? Benefits go way down after 8 weeks.

 

[Slims]

You aren’t contemplating running andros for 16 weeks straight are you? Benefits go way down after 8 weeks.

8-12 weeks between bloods

 

[Toren]

After waiting four yeara to get it, I don't want to loose it. So if my bloods, were every 6 months I could potentially do 16 week cycles with one month clean post bloods (just incase they needed a re-test) and one month clean pre-bloods to clear any Andro detection?

In theory, yes, but I'd cap orals at 8 weeks and injectables at 12; especially if running long esters. Most orals will clear the body in days, but the effects of them will not.

 

[JoePaul39]

8-12 weeks between bloods

Should consider running Sarms. Unlike Andros you can get benefits beyond 8 weeks and instead do 12 week runs so you can be on cycle 24 weeks a year if you have 2 six month blood tests. Lgd is great to run if you are on trt because you won’t be suppressed and it will actually increase your circulating free t.

 

[Slims]

Should consider running Sarms. Unlike Andros you can get benefits beyond 8 weeks and instead do 12 week runs so you can be on cycle 24 weeks a year if you have 2 six month blood tests. Lgd is great to run if you are on trt because you won’t be suppressed and it will actually increase your circulating free t.

I thought that the benefits vs side effects ratio was better with the Andros. The people I know who have run or are running 1-AD+Epi-AD are getting amazing results.

 

[JoePaul39]

I thought that the benefits vs side effects ratio was better with the Andros. The people I know who have run or are running 1-AD+Epi-AD are getting amazing results.

Against a single Sarm yes the andros produce more results, but if you were to stack 2 or 3 Sarms like users do with the andros then that is debatable which produces greater results. If you really want greater results you could stack the Sarms WITH the andros. The only drawbacks with the andros is cost and also Epi Andro effects the prostate which the test from trt also does (can enlarge prostate). Sarms on the other hand do not have this problem impact.

 

[Slims]

Against a single Sarm yes the andros produce more results, but if you were to stack 2 or 3 Sarms like users do with the andros then that is debatable which produces greater results. The only drawbacks with the andros is cost and also Epi Andro effects the prostate which the test from trt also does (can enlarge prostate). Sarms on the other hand do not have this problem impact.

My body is my businness, so I don't mind the cost.
The debate on whether DHT really causes prostate growth is still unconclusive, so that's the risk I'll have to take. If the tests show that it's getting bigger then I'll stop the Epi and try 11-oxo instead

 

[JoePaul39]

My body is my businness, so I don't mind the cost.
The debate on whether DHT really causes prostate growth is still unconclusive, so that's the risk I'll have to take. If the tests show that it's getting bigger then I'll stop the Epi and try 11-oxo instead

I’m going to be running an Epi Andro cycle along side some Sarms with my trt too. I don’t think it is that big of deal. I don’t plan on keep making a habit of running it over and over, but I have enough for two 8 week cycles that I purchased before I went on trt and don’t want to waste it.