Any Exhaustive Experts on Cardarine, Etc.?

[muscleupcrohn]

I am not comparing Cardarine to water and oxygen lol! Shame you chose to take such a simplistic view of that comment. I thought it would be obvious I was merely pointing out how pointless it is to 'prove' the supposed danger of something when an absurdly large dose is taken... because DUH! If you can show me a comparable study where Cardarine is shown to be dangerous at a dose comparable to what people are taking, then fair enough. However, you must be aware of the studies that show no effect on cancer cells whatsoever, and others that actually show other benefits? I'm not saying take this as gospel either, but the evidence as a whole hardly paints Cardarine as a deadly carcinogen that we should all avoid at our peril.

Also, let's not forget the audience here. I imagine many of us, myself included, eat very healthy diets, packed with fruits, veg and other supplements that have been scientifically proven to reduce cancer risk, not to mention exercise itself! So if there is an unknown risk with Cardarine, there is every chance many of us are going above and beyond in everything else we do in our lifestyle choices to mitigate that risk to a considerable degree. Impossible to quantify that of course, but worth pointing out.

So the equivalent of ~29mg and 48mg for a 60kg human (3 and 5 mg/kg in rats) isn't a "comparable" dose to the 20-25mg that plenty of people use?

Also, if you actually read the studies that found no effect on cancer cells, and knew the limitations of an in vitro study, you'd see that they explicitly state:

this could also be due to the fact that these studies were performed in cell culture, which are not influenced by variables resulting from other cell types not found in an in vitro model.

There are a myriad of variables that may be present in vivo that simply don't exist in vitro, meaning you can't inherently extrapolate from an in vitro study to what will happen in vivo (that is in an actual living organism).

My friend, you're displaying a basic (but common) lack of understanding of basic scientific research principles.

 

[Chados]

Also, I don't think you know the difference between a paper/article and a study. Just because they're both on NCBI doesn't mean they're the same, because they're not.

You're incapable to understand anything else than your own comments? A doctor prescribed test at trt for people with already low testosterone. They don't prescribe 1 gr. Nobody gets anxiety from coffee never ****ing happens. Can it? Possibly but you can't name one person and neither can I. Coffee is not the same as ephedrine and I dare you to actually drink coffee and then tell me wether you got anxiety or diarreah

 

[ax1]

People get bad stomach all the time from too much coffee now YOU are talking crap. Can you become shaky sure but most drinker don't feel that because we are used to drink it.

I come from the country with most coffee drinkers in the world and I have never in my life experienced anxiety or heard of anyone experience that.

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Before I open and read that link, is that just another opinion piece? Or does it actually cite relevent scientific research?

 

[muscleupcrohn]

You're incapable to understand anything else than your own comments? A doctor prescribed test at trt for people with already low testosterone. They don't prescribe 1 gr. Nobody gets anxiety from coffee never ****ing happens. Can it? Possibly but you can't name one person and neither can I. Coffee is not the same as ephedrine and I dare you to actually drink coffee and then tell me wether you got anxiety or diarreah

I can't name one person who gets anxiety from caffeine? There are people on this forum who have reported anxiety with caffeine. MULTIPLE STUDIES have observed statistically significant incidences of caffeine-induced anxiety. Plenty of people get anxiety from drinking coffee, to suggest otherwise is incorrect and insulting. I drink plenty of coffee; I don't get anxiety from it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I'm not allergic to shellfish, but that doesn't mean that shellfish allergy isn't a thing for crying out loud...

I'm not saying coffee can't upset your stomach, it can, I'm just saying that it irrefutably can also cause and/or worsen anxiety. Of course, if that happens, just lower your dose or don't use it. It's a minor transient adverse effect, and in no way means it's not safe, just as mild transient adverse effects don't mean ephedrine isn't safe...

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Before I open and read that link, is that just another opinion piece? Or does it actually cite relevent scientific research?

It's a blog. I don't see a single reference. But this guy doesn't know the difference between ephedra and ephedrine HCL, or the difference between a study and an article/paper, so what do you expect.

 

[ax1]

It's a blog. I don't see a single reference. But this guy doesn't know the difference between ephedra and ephedrine HCL, or the difference between a study and an article/paper, so what do you expect.

I expect him to find random blogs to prove the earth is flat, or that humans are desensents of insects that once lived on one of Pluto’s many moons.

 

[Chados]

We know what coffee can do but like I said everyone around me drinks coffee every day and at best they get stomach pain. I didn't say it wasn't possible I said it's almost unheard of.

Now first you call it safe then you say it's quite safe. That's just a sign you don't actually think it's safe.

 

[Johnston]

So the equivalent of ~29mg and 48mg for a 60kg human (3 and 5 mg/kg in rats) isn't a "comparable" dose to the 20-25mg that plenty of people use?

Also, if you actually read the studies that found no effect on cancer cells, and knew the limitations of an in vitro study, you'd see that they explicitly state:


There are a myriad of variables that may be present in vivo that simply don't exist in vitro, meaning you can't inherently extrapolate from an in vitro study to what will happen in vivo (that is in an actual living organism).

My friend, you're displaying a basic (but common) lack of understanding of basic scientific research principles.

I am aware of a study that took three human colon cancer cell lines and two human liver cancer cell lines and tested using different models. Model 1, in the presence of or lack of serum, and, model 2, in the presence of or lack of Cardarine, and studied them over culture period. The results were quantified using the Coulter Method, which is the gold standard of counting (so it's said), to determine cell proliferation. Under the testing methods for this experiment, all five samples showed no changes in cell proliferation and failed to offer any evidence that PPARs such as Cardarine increased cancer growth.

In addition to this, Cardarine has shown to have an anti-inflammatory effect in many cell types; colon epithelium, macrophages, cardiomyocytes, immune cells, keratinocytes, myoblasts, endothelial cells, and hepatocytes. Evidence also suggest that Cardarine promotes differentiation in intestinal epithelium, breast and colon cancer cell lines, trophoblasts and primary keratinocytes. This means it allows cells to become more specialised cells maintaining a natural limitation of certain cell types, without such a limitation, basic cells would run rampant invading areas they typically do not belong. Cardarine has also been demonstrated inhibition of cell growth in a number of cells.

Of course, if you're saying all of these are junk studies and should be ignored for whatever reason, well, fair enough. How many studies have 'proven' a cancer risk, and in of themselves would be considered gold standard and infallible from a scientific point of view? The singular rat study meets those criteria?

I'm not actually even advocating the use of this stuff... just offering some balance above all else.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I am aware of a study that took three human colon cancer cell lines and two human liver cancer cell lines and tested using different models. Model 1, in the presence of or lack of serum, and, model 2, in the presence of or lack of Cardarine, and studied them over culture period. The results were quantified using the Coulter Method, which is the gold standard of counting (so it's said), to determine cell proliferation. Under the testing methods for this experiment, all five samples showed no changes in cell proliferation and failed to offer any evidence that PPARs such as Cardarine increased cancer growth.

In addition to this, Cardarine has shown to have an anti-inflammatory effect in many cell types; colon epithelium, macrophages, cardiomyocytes, immune cells, keratinocytes, myoblasts, endothelial cells, and hepatocytes. Evidence also suggest that Cardarine promotes differentiation in intestinal epithelium, breast and colon cancer cell lines, trophoblasts and primary keratinocytes. This means it allows cells to become more specialised cells maintaining a natural limitation of certain cell types, without such a limitation, basic cells would run rampant invading areas they typically do not belong. Cardarine has also been demonstrated inhibition of cell growth in a number of cells.

Of course, if you're saying all of these are junk studies and should be ignored for whatever reason, well, fair enough. How many studies have 'proven' a cancer risk, and in of themselves would be considered gold standard and infallible from a scientific point of view? The singular rat study is it?

I'm not actually even advocating the use of this stuff... just offering some balance above all else.

You still apparently don't know the inherent limitations of in vitro studies.

Read this, it discusses all the research, in vitro and in vivo, rodents, humans, etc, on cardarine:
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Make you own decisions, and please, don't forget HED conversions.

I'm not saying the cell studies are junk, just that they are INSUFFICIENT EVIDENCE to concluded that cardarine is safe, as there are major limitation of cell (IN VITRO) studies that the authors of the studies explicitly state if you do more than read the abstract of said studies.

It's risk vs reward. You determine that on your own, but don't pretend that in vitro studies can possibly prove that it's safe, because they don't, and they can't.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

We know what coffee can do but like I said everyone around me drinks coffee every day and at best they get stomach pain. I didn't say it wasn't possible I said it's almost unheard of.

Now first you call it safe then you say it's quite safe. That's just a sign you don't actually think it's safe.

No. Plenty of people get anxiety, jittery, etc. from drinking coffee. This is an irrefutable fact. It's not "almost unheard of," it's very common, even if it's only something experienced in a minority of coffee drinkers.

When I say "quite safe" I mean it's safe. YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT QUITE MEANS!

QUITE: wholly, completely
QUITE: to an extreme
QUITE: to a considerable extent
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Quite safe means very safe you twat.

Coffee and caffeine are quite safe when used responsibly. Ephedrine is quite safe when used responsibly. Anything used irresponsibly is, by definition, not safe, so saying it's not safe because it's unsafe if you abuse it is asinine.

 

[Chados]

No. Plenty of people get anxiety, jittery, etc. from drinking coffee. This is an irrefutable fact. It's not "almost unheard of," it's very common, even if it's only something experienced in a minority of coffee drinkers.

When I say "quite safe" I mean it's safe. YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT QUITE MEANS!

QUITE: wholly, completely
QUITE: to an extreme
QUITE: to a considerable extent
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Quite safe means very safe you twat.

Coffee and caffeine are quite safe when used responsibly. Ephedrine is quite safe when used responsibly. Anything used irresponsibly is, by definition, not safe, so saying it's not safe if you abuse it is asinine.

Coffee and ephedrine are not as safe. I don't even know what you're trying to do. We both agree it's safe in moderation and for people with healthy bodies. Now can coffee cause shaky hands yes. Anxiety sure but I'm telling you you gotta have some serious anxiety before coffee is gonna affect you. I doubt that it's as uncommon with ephedrine. I've seen it and I've used it, it's coffee on steroids

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Coffee and ephedrine are not as safe. I don't even know what you're trying to do. We both agree it's safe in moderation and for people with healthy bodies. Now can coffee cause shaky hands yes. Anxiety sure but I'm telling you you gotta have some serious anxiety before coffee is gonna affect you. I doubt that it's as uncommon with ephedrine. I've seen it and I've used it, it's coffee on steroids

Yes, coffee is "safer" than ephedrine, but my point is that ephedrine has been repeatedly shown to be quite safe when used in responsible doses. If you can agree with this, then we're good here. My point is that it's asinine to compare the effects of responsibly dosed ephedrine to cocaine.

My "point" is to show you that EVERYTHING has some level of transient, mild adverse effects, even coffee. So if you're saying that ephedrine isn't safe because it has mild, transient adverse effects, than you'd also have to say that coffee isn't safe. Less safe than coffee doesn't mean not safe. Coffee is "less safe" than water, but I think we'd both say that coffee is still safe, no? But if you agree that ephedrine is safe when dosed responsibly by healthy individuals, we're good here.

 

[ax1]

We know what coffee can do but like I said everyone around me drinks coffee every day and at best they get stomach pain. I didn't say it wasn't possible I said it's almost unheard of.

Now first you call it safe then you say it's quite safe. That's just a sign you don't actually think it's safe.

Tell them to stop drinking cheap dirty coffee.

 

[Chados]

Yes, coffee is "safer" than ephedrine, but my point is that ephedrine has been repeatedly shown to be quite safe when used in responsible doses. If you can agree with this, then we're good here. My point is that it's asinine to compare the effects of responsibly dosed ephedrine to cocaine.

My "point" is to show you that EVERYTHING has some level of transient, mild adverse effects, even coffee. So if you're saying that ephedrine isn't safe because it has mild, transient adverse effects, than you'd also have to say that coffee isn't safe. But if you agree that ephedrine is safe when dosed responsibly by healthy individuals, we're good here.

I've never mentioned ephedrine not being alright at a low dose but to use it as a fatburner say at 20mg probably wouldn't kill me but another guy buying over the counter with unknown health problems or me using it for too long I do believe is harmful and can cause a stroke. I don't think drinking coffee one or two cups a day has any effect on you or at best very minor.

I don't believe any stim product is safe to put out in the public but I think coffee is borderline harmless compared to others. I don't think many people feel good in their stomach if they drink 10 cups and that keeps most of us away from overusing it. Ephedrine has a similar effect but is much easier to overdose especially when tolerance builds up.

That pretty much sums up my thoughts on it

 

[Chados]

Tell them to stop drinking cheap dirty coffee.

Try drinking too much coffee on an empty stomach. We literally drink coffee as Englishmen drink tea. I lived in the us and I love the country (guess you're from there) the coffee there is literally the worst quality. Not saying you can't find quality, it's just much harder to find. Europe has way better overall quality with food . Every store in Scandinavia is whole foods

 

[ax1]

I've never mentioned ephedrine not being alright at a low dose but to use it as a fatburner say at 20mg probably wouldn't kill me but another guy buying over the counter with unknown health problems or me using it for too long I do believe is harmful and can cause a stroke. I don't think drinking coffee one or two cups a day has any effect on you or at best very minor.

I don't believe any stim product is safe to put out in the public but I think coffee is borderline harmless compared to others. I don't think many people feel good in their stomach if they drink 10 cups and that keeps most of us away from overusing it. Ephedrine has a similar effect but is much easier to overdose especially when tolerance builds up.

That pretty much sums up my thoughts on it

Bingo, thats all we have.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I've never mentioned ephedrine not being alright at a low dose but to use it as a fatburner say at 20mg probably wouldn't kill me but another guy buying over the counter with unknown health problems or me using it for too long I do believe is harmful and can cause a stroke. I don't think drinking coffee one or two cups a day has any effect on you or at best very minor.

I don't believe any stim product is safe to put out in the public but I think coffee is borderline harmless compared to others. I don't think many people feel good in their stomach if they drink 10 cups and that keeps most of us away from overusing it. Ephedrine has a similar effect but is much easier to overdose especially when tolerance builds up.

That pretty much sums up my thoughts on it

Do I have to go back and show you quotes where you pretty explicitly stated it's dangerous? You don't think that any stim product is safe to put out in the public? So does that mean you think they should all be prescription only, or is it just some random opinion that has no practical relevance? Be prepared to pay a ****-ton of money for everything/anything then if it's all prescription only.

I think we've beat this dead horse enough though. The USEFUL/RECOMMENDED doses of caffeine AND ephedrine have been shown to be quite (very) safe. There's just no need to dose either of them higher than their effective (safe) doses.

I think we're good here now haha.

 

[Chados]

Do I have to go back and show you quotes where you pretty explicitly stated it's dangerous? You don't think that any stim product is safe to put out in the public? So does that mean you think they should all be prescription only, or is it just some random opinion that has no practical relevance? Be prepared to pay a ****-ton of money for everything/anything then if it's all prescription only.

I think we've beat this dead horse enough though. The USEFUL/RECOMMENDED doses of caffeine AND ephedrine have been shown to be quite (very) safe. There's just no need to dose either of them higher than their effective (safe) doses.

I think we're good here now haha.

I don't think it's safe. I think you will survive, I think coffee is safe. Ephedrine is safe for being a fatburner.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I don't think it's safe. I think you will survive, I think coffee is safe. Ephedrine is safe for being a fatburner.

Whatever. Your definition of "safe" is clearly just much more conservative than the scientific communities, as the actual studies (not random papers) on ephedrine show that it is very well tolerated (see safe), even when taken multiple times a day every day for months WITH caffeine. But you've repeatedly exaggerated the relevant risks of ephedrine, which I think is in large part due to your initial inability do differentiate between ephedra and ephedrine HCL. They're not even close to being the same really.

 

[Chados]

Whatever. Your definition of "safe" is clearly just much more conservative than the scientific communities, as the actual studies (not random papers) on ephedrine show that it is very well tolerated (see safe), even when taken multiple times a day every day for months WITH caffeine. But you've repeatedly exaggerated the relevant risks of ephedrine, which I think is in large part due to your initial inability do differentiate between ephedra and ephedrine HCL. They're not even close to being the same really.

So they have nothing in common you say?

There are studies showing a decreased risk of cardiovascular disease when using coffee. These two shouldn't be mentioned in the same cathegory. Besides all studies answer this, do you think ephedrine has any negative effect on cardiovascular system?

 

[muscleupcrohn]

So they have nothing in common you say?

There are studies showing a decreased risk of cardiovascular disease when using coffee. These two shouldn't be mentioned in the same cathegory. Besides all studies answer this, do you think ephedrine has any negative effect on cardiovascular system?

I’m saying that controlled (known and exact) doses of EPHEDRINE is inherently safer than EPHEDRA use, which contains UNKNOWN amounts of ephedrine and other compounds. Sure, they have some things in common, but they are in no way the same thing or interchangeable. As for cardiovascular issues, I think for people without cardiovascular issues, it is quite safe cardiovascularly, as the studies show. If you have heart issues, don’t use stimulants. If you’re allergic to shellfish, don’t eat them. Simple...

 

[Chados]

Well then I think we're on the same page. Except that I don't believe it's safe enough to sell over the counter.

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The blood vessels are the worrying factor

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Well then I think we're on the same page. Except that I don't believe it's safe enough to sell over the counter.

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The blood vessels are the worrying factor

That’s your opinion, and you’re entitled to it. It seems your major/primary concern is people using it irresponsibly, which can be dangerous. My view is that it’s quite safe when use responsibly, so it should be legal OTC. I’m more libertarian leaning, so I don’t really like the idea of restricting access to everything that has potential for abuse. When you look at the actual blinded studies (your paper is a review, not an actual blinded study), you find it’s very safe when used responsibly. I’m also not, nor have I ever, recommended it be used as a decongestant, which is the topic of that paper, but only for weight loss. Different uses and subjects have different goals/uses/doses/contraindications/etc. Anyway, I think this horse is long dead, so good talk. I think we’ve wrapped it up.

 

[ax1]

I don't think it's safe. I think you will survive, I think coffee is safe. Ephedrine is safe for being a fatburner.

Coffee can kill you in the wrong quantities. They banned bulk powdered caffeine for consumer purchase not long ago, people die from it.

 

[Chados]

There are studies there to read. I don't think it should be banned either, I don't care what people take as long as they don't harm others. I just don't think it's safe for the population.

Haha great talk, always a pleasure

 

[muscleupcrohn]

There are studies there to read. I don't think it should be banned either, I don't care what people take as long as they don't harm others. I just don't think it's safe for the population.

Haha great talk, always a pleasure

But prescription only is essentially a ban of sorts, as not all doctors will prescribe something just because a person wants to use it. Testosterone is legal as a script, but banned form OTC purchase/use.

 

[ax1]

Well then I think we're on the same page. Except that I don't believe it's safe enough to sell over the counter.

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The blood vessels are the worrying factor

If your talking about obese idiots or people with other existing conditions misusing ephedrine Id be totally on the same page with you. Fact is people sometimes think more is better, but we would have to regulate regular food too since 50%+ of American's are overweight and it is one of the leading causes of cardiovascular diseases and death. We shouldnt sell food over the counter either, food does prematurely kill people, this is a fact. Food should be rationed to safe levels to protect people from themselves. Food does prematurely kill people, this is a fact.

 

[Chados]

Coffee can kill you in the wrong quantities. They banned bulk powdered caffeine for consumer purchase not long ago,

Coffee has reported health benefits, it's the most commonly used drink I believe after water and more than likely the most used stimulant.

One guy died from cardiovascular problems buying bulk powder. but also one teaspoon = 28 cups of coffee, what if he had 3 teaspoons? That's like weeks or months of coffee. 1 cup is 40mg , 28 is 1120mg (if he only had one spoon)

I don't really see the point here. So an extreme amount of anything will kill you and that makes coffee as dangerous as ephedrine?

 

[Chados]

If your talking about obese idiots or people with other existing conditions misusing ephedrine Id be totally on the same page with you. Fact is people sometimes think more is better, but we would have to regulate regular food too since 50%+ of American's are overweight and it is one of the leading causes of cardiovascular diseases and death. We shouldnt sell food over the counter either, food does prematurely kill people, this is a fact. Food should be rationed to safe levels to protect people from themselves. Food does prematurely kill people, this is a fact.

I think we are on The same page.. I am healthy, I do my checks with the doctor and I will probably be fine taking ephedrine. My concern is what it does to me in the long run especially if used many times. My other concern is people buying without supervision cause they wanna lose a bit of fat due to laziness. Main point - over the counter is not safe. Ephedrine in general is safer than other hard core stimulants but definitely more dangerous than a cup of coffee.

 

[ax1]

I think we are on The same page.. I am healthy, I do my checks with the doctor and I will probably be fine taking ephedrine. My concern is what it does to me in the long run especially if used many times. My other concern is people buying without supervision cause they wanna lose a bit of fat due to laziness. Main point - over the counter is not safe. Ephedrine in general is safer than other hard core stimulants but definitely more dangerous than a cup of coffee.

Being fat isn’t necessary caused by “laziness.” It can be other medically contributing factors not in control of a person. That’s where ephedrine and caffeine combination both have helped people get into a better state of overall health.

If you have concerns simply look at the long term data done in real humans, we have a sample of over a quarter of a million people well documented. If you don’t want the risk then just don’t worry about it, it’s a aid not a necessity for you to get it done. Keep in mind caffeine use should be a concern for you too, especially if you start developing other conditions as we all can’t stop aging. But there is no evidence ephedrine is dangerous when used properly especially if you talk to a doctor and get checkups.

 

[Chados]

Being fat isn’t necessary caused by “laziness.” It can be other medically contributing factors not in control of a person. That’s where ephedrine and caffeine combination both have helped people get into a better state of overall health.

If you have concerns simply look at the long term data done in real humans, we have a sample of over a quarter of a million people well documented. If you don’t want the risk then just don’t worry about it, it’s a aid not a necessity for you to get it done. Keep in mind caffeine use should be a concern for you too, especially if you start developing other conditions as we all can’t stop aging. But there is no evidence ephedrine is dangerous when used properly especially if you talk to a doctor and get checkups.

Hey now.. I didnt call every fat person lazy. Yeah it can arguably be safe in moderation just as with anything. Problem is as with all stims they are addictive, people drop weight and can't sleep. Blood pressure goes up, vessels get constricted. Cocain is illegal , amphetamine etc etc. They can all be used safely but they are not all safe for anyone.

 

[ax1]

Hey now.. I didnt call every fat person lazy. Yeah it can arguably be safe in moderation just as with anything. Problem is as with all stims they are addictive, people drop weight and can't sleep. Blood pressure goes up, vessels get constricted. Cocain is illegal , amphetamine etc etc. They can all be used safely but they are not all safe for anyone.

Thats entirely false, obviously your not looking at well established statistical data of over a 1/4 million people and other studies that show ephedrine is not addictive and are not a cause of the adverse side effects you so persistently make up.

You are anti-science.

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[ax1]

That pretty much sums up my thoughts on it

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[Chados]

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Neurologic and psychopathologic disturbances were studied in patients with DL-ephedrine addiction. The patients were also subjected to echoencephalography. The authors identified the period of acute narcotic intoxication, the abstinence syndrome and the period of chronic intoxication. The recommendations on the treatment of the above patients are presented.

 

[ax1]

Neurologic and psychopathologic disturbances were studied in patients with DL-ephedrine addiction. The patients were also subjected to echoencephalography. The authors identified the period of acute narcotic intoxication, the abstinence syndrome and the period of chronic intoxication. The recommendations on the treatment of the above patients are presented.

Nice!

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Neurologic and psychopathologic disturbances were studied in patients with DL-ephedrine addiction. The patients were also subjected to echoencephalography. The authors identified the period of acute narcotic intoxication, the abstinence syndrome and the period of chronic intoxication. The recommendations on the treatment of the above patients are presented.

What can’t be abused my friend? What’s the number of patients here? Is it anywhere close to 250,000? Alcohol is legal, and very addictive, but also safe in moderate amounts (don’t drive), and actually has real benefits when used responsibly (HDL cholesterol for example). It’s not for everyone, but moderate alcohol consumption is safe, and we all know how attempting to outlaw alcohol worked out (it solved our organized crime shortage).

Would you take fire from man because it may burn him? Or water because he may drown in it?

 

[Chados]

What can’t be abused my friend? What’s the number of patients here? Is it anywhere close to 250,000? Alcohol is legal, and very addictive, but also safe in moderate amounts (don’t drive), and actually has real benefits when used responsibly (HDL cholesterol for example). It’s not for everyone, but moderate alcohol consumption is safe, and we all know how attempting to outlaw alcohol worked out (it solved our organized crime shortage).

Would you take fire from man because it may burn him? Or water because he may drown in it?

I think the question was if it's safe. Is alcohol safe? No.. question wasn't if I agree with alcohol consumption or not.

I think we came to the conclusion that I think ephedrine is dangerous when sold over the counter and you think it's safe.

 

[ax1]

I think the question was if it's safe. Is alcohol safe? No.. question wasn't if I agree with alcohol consumption or not.

I think we came to the conclusion that I think ephedrine is dangerous when sold over the counter and you showed how it's safe.

***fixed***

Muscleupcron doesnt think its safe, he is simply backing and posted strong detailed human research and data showing its safe.

 

[Chados]

Muscleupcron doesnt think its safe, he is simply backing and posted strong detailed human research and data showing its safe.

Cocain is also safe taken at a low dosage for a short time for most people

 

[ax1]

Cocain is also safe taken at a low dosage for a short time for most people

And you have human studies backing that up? Show me, post it. Or are you just making more stuff up off of your head? How do you know a small amount doesnt quickly lead to medical physical addiction and a quick pathway to heavy use.

Have you ever seen before your own eyes people hooked on cocaine and then live a life of crime after 1 teeny line? I have.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I think the question was if it's safe. Is alcohol safe? No.. question wasn't if I agree with alcohol consumption or not.

I think we came to the conclusion that I think ephedrine is dangerous when sold over the counter and you think it's safe.

Alcohol IS safe when used responsibly for the VAST MAJORITY of people, that is people without health conditions that would be contraindicated.

I say that OTC ephedrine is SAFE FOR THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE who will use it responsibly. Of course, people with preexisting conditions probably shouldn't use it, but I'm sure you know that even OTC supplements say to consult with your physician before starting anything new.

Peanuts are deadly for people who are allergic to them. Using your logic, if something isn't safe if it's unsafe for ANYONE, then peanuts AREN'T SAFE.

***fixed***

Muscleupcron doesnt think its safe, he is simply backing and posted strong detailed human research and data showing its safe.

This. It's safe for the vast majority of users. Of course if you OD on it it's dangerous. That's a given, and applies to everything on earth.

Cocain is also safe taken at a low dosage for a short time for most people

Dude, stop this asinine BS. Is cocaine safe at EFFECTIVE DOSES USED MULTIPLE TIMES A DAY, EVERY DAY, FOR MULTIPLE MONTHS? Ephedrine is. MULTIPLE STUDIES SHOW THIS. This comparison is nonsense. Just when I thought you were making a little sense and being somewhat reasonable, you say something beyond nonsensical like this.

The only logical conclusions is that ephedrine use, at reasonable doses, for healthy people, is safe. Of course, if you have a preexisting condition, consult your physician, as the freaking label for any supplement will tell you. Furthermore, if you have issues with addiction and/or substance abuse, use caution with anything/everything. Sound good man?

 

[ax1]

As far as I know most people who used a small harmless dose of cocaine ended up doing alot more and significantly harming their health.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

As far as I know most people who used a small harmless dose of cocaine ended up doing alot more and significantly harming their health.

He's going to say that the same thing happens so often with ephedrine too because he saw 1-10 cases of abuse on PubMed, when we have reviews/analyses of 250,000+ users showing this is not a common/relevant problem in the vast, vast, vast majority of people who use it.

 

[Chados]

You guys are grasping for straws, just leave it will you? Did I mention addiction? I said that using a (small amount for a short amount of time) is not dangerous just like ephedrine isn't.. that's not a continous use that's a SHORT TIME. DO I RECOMMEND IT YOU ASK? No I don't but you won't die, you might now even get high with that dose though. Alcohol is safe if used at a level it doesnt make you intoxicated. Now for the love of god stop taking a sentence and use it to your advantage. We already settled this. It takes less cocain to kill a person than ephedrine , much less. Anymore questions?


"The only logical conclusions is that ephedrine use, at reasonable doses, for healthy people, is safe. Of course, if you have a preexisting condition, consult your physician, as the freaking label for any supplement will tell you. Furthermore, if you have issues with addiction and/or substance abuse, use caution with anything/everything. Sound good man?"

Yes it sounds very good. I don't think anyone has questioned that.

 

[ax1]

You guys are grasping for straws, just leave it will you? Did I mention addiction? I said that using a (small amount for a short amount of time) is not dangerous just like ephedrine isn't.. that's not a continous use that's a SHORT TIME. DO I RECOMMEND IT YOU ASK? No I don't but you won't die, you might now even get high with that dose though. Alcohol is safe if used at a level it doesnt make you intoxicated. Now for the love of god stop taking a sentence and use it to your advantage. We already settled this. It takes less cocain to kill a person than ephedrine , much less. Anymore questions?


"The only logical conclusions is that ephedrine use, at reasonable doses, for healthy people, is safe. Of course, if you have a preexisting condition, consult your physician, as the freaking label for any supplement will tell you. Furthermore, if you have issues with addiction and/or substance abuse, use caution with anything/everything. Sound good man?"

Yes it sounds very good. I don't think anyone has questioned that.

Addiction is totally relevant as that is a part of your of your treasure trove of made up side effects you claim ephedrine has and your comparing cocaine to ephedrine.

 

[Chados]

Addiction is totally relevant as that is a part of your of your treasure trove of made up side effects you claim ephedrine havs and your comparing cocaine to ephedrine.

Its not because I clearly said short term. If you use it short term you're not using it anymore? I don't really understand the confusion here. Are you telling me it's not addictive now? I made that up?

 

[ax1]

Its not because I clearly said short term. If you use it short term you're not using it anymore? I don't really understand the confusion here. Are you telling me it's not addictive now? I made that up?

Short term cocaine use may immediately lead to more and possibly an overdose. could possible trigger a heart attack. How can you make such general "short term" safety claims with such a highly addictive substance? That just illogical.

Yes, you made up ephedrine addiction, its clearly not addictive if you follow real human data. People dont take an ephedrine and all the sudden crave more or get physically hooked on it.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Its not because I clearly said short term. If you use it short term you're not using it anymore? I don't really understand the confusion here. Are you telling me it's not addictive now? I made that up?

Ephedrine has been shown, in the overwhelming consensus of multiple peer-reviewed, placebo-controlled, double-blind studies not to be addictive or cause withdrawls in any meaningful way even when used MULTIPLE TIMES A DAY, EVERY DAY, FOR MULTIPLE MONTHS (24 WEEKS; THAT'S 5+ MONTHS). Let's see anywhere close to this level of safety for cocaine man. Show me MULTIPLE 24-week studies using cocaine even once a day (forget 3 times a day) every day and finding it to be safe and free from addiction and withdrawal. You can't because you're not making any sense at all... the two aren't even remotely similar in terms of addictive potential and safety. Suggesting they are is asinine.

 

[Chados]

Short term cocaine use may immediately lead to more and possibly an overdose. could possible trigger a heart attack. How can you make such general "short term" safety claims with such a highly addictive substance? That just illogical.

Yes, you made up ephedrine addiction, its clearly not addictive if you follow real human data. People dont take an ephedrine and all the sudden crave more or get physically hooked on it.

Again low dose short term what do you not get here? That's not increasing the dosage is it? That's abuse if anything. I really don't have time for this. Ask the people who are addicted by it, you can find it everywhere. Any stimulant is addictive

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Again low dose short term what do you not get here? That's not increasing the dosage is it? That's abuse if anything. I really don't have time for this. Ask the people who are addicted by it, you can find it everywhere. Any stimulant is addictive

Caffeine is a stimulant. All stimulants are addictive. Therefore caffeine is addictive. If addictive means unsafe, caffeine (see coffee) is unsafe, and not suitable for the general public, as you yourself said about ephedrine. This is what your argument/logic says, point blank.

You don't even know what you're saying, or at least don't know the implications of what you say. Just quite while you can maintain some basic perception of intelligence man.

You can find people addicted to ephedrine "everywhere?" GTFOH with that BS.

THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE CAN USE EPHEDRINE RESPONSIBLY, DAILY, MULTIPLE TIMES PER DAY, FOR MULTIPLE MONTHS AND NOT NEED TO ESCALATE THE DOSE OR BECOME ADDICTED OR SUFFER WITHDRAWLS. THIS IS CLEARLY NOT THE CASE FOR FREAKING COCAINE. YOU'RE WRONG...