Any Exhaustive Experts on Cardarine, Etc.?

[muscleupcrohn]

Thats a recommendation by "Health Canada" which is a load of government bureaucrats pushing reactionary policies with no scientific backing because their minion supporters think their are being kept safe.

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But Canada sells ephedrine HCL over the counter in basically every supplement store/pharmacy/etc, so even they clearly don't think it's that dangerous. These authors may, but even Canada (the people making the legislation) doesn't, and neither does the US, as it's available without a prescription, just in limited quantities so it can't be used to make meth. I don't know what is so hard for him to understand about this.

 

[Chados]

Thats a recommendation by "Health Canada" which is a load of government bureaucrats pushing reactionary policies with no scientific backing because their minion supporters think their are being kept safe.

Sure might be true.. but again contraction of blood vessels.. look I think ephedrine is far safer than cocain or clenbuterol but I don't think it's safe. I think it's one of the go to for fatloss but I don't do stimulants other than coffee. I've seen far too much **** happen with these drugs to believe they are safe. Safer than others? Sure I give you that but not safe.

 

[Chados]

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But Canada sells ephedrine HCL over the counter in basically every supplement store/pharmacy/etc, so even they clearly don't think it's that dangerous. These authors may, but even Canada (the people making the legislation) doesn't, and neither does the US, as it's available without a prescription, just in limited quantities so it can't be used to make meth. I don't know what is so hard for him to understand about this.

Yeah and so is paracetamol which can kill you easily if overdosed.

 

[Chados]

Most people say the rats were pumped full of GW 30xs as much as a human would take

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[muscleupcrohn]

Yeah and so is paracetamol which can kill you easily if overdosed.

Anything can kill you if overdosed you ****... it's safe if used responsibly. If we ban everything that can be overdosed, we'd ban literally everything in existence. I know I said I was done, but somehow you keep one-upping yourself with insanity that just amazes me.

 

[ax1]

Sure might be true.. but again contraction of blood vessels.. look I think ephedrine is far safer than cocain or clenbuterol but I don't think it's safe. I think it's one of the go to for fatloss but I don't do stimulants other than coffee. I've seen far too much **** happen with these drugs to believe they are safe. Safer than others? Sure I give you that but not safe.

You know hou can probably find 10s of thousands or more adverse side effects on coffeee than ephedrine? I’ll snort coke before drinking coffee.

2 can play that game.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

You know hou can probably find 10s of thousands or more adverse side effects on coffeee than ephedrine? I’ll snort coke before drinking coffee.

2 can play that game.

Forget coke; I'll have whatever he's having; clearly it's some strong mind-altering stuff.

 

[ax1]

Anything can kill you if overdosed you ****... it's safe if used responsibly. If we ban everything that can be overdosed, we'd ban literally everything in existence. I know I said I was done, but somehow you keep one-upping yourself with insanity that just amazes me.

Someone died from water poisoning on the Howard Stern show when he ran that hold your pee contest...just saying watch what you drink, I’ll stick to chewing coffee beans.

 

[Chados]

Anything can kill you if overdosed you ****... it's safe if used responsibly. If we ban everything that can be overdosed, we'd ban literally everything in existence. I know I said I was done, but somehow you keep one-upping yourself with insanity that just amazes me.

I'm insane? You start the argument and you won't leave. You just said it's sold and now you say I'm an idiot for saying something else is sold? I basically just proved you that it has absolutely nothing to do with safety. Never said they should ban anything. You take what you want to take its all good for me. Now stop being so god damn aggressive and let people have their own opinion.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I'm insane? You start the argument and you won't leave. You just said it's sold and now you say I'm an idiot for saying something else is sold? I basically just proved you that it has absolutely nothing to do with safety. Never said they should ban anything. You take what you want to take its all good for me. Now stop being so god damn aggressive and let people have their own opinion.

What? So now you're saying that paracetamol isn't safe when used responsibly? Because that's what this "argument" is stating.

I could list every incorrect statement you've made so far, but that'd take several hours and probably a few pages. You "proved" nothing except that you incessantly change your argument (which is riddled fallacious logic).

People can have their own opinions, but surely you must know that your opinion doesn't trump science, and it's irresponsible to masquerade your asinine opinions as scientific facts.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Someone died from water poisoning on the Howard Stern show when he ran that hold your pee contest...just saying watch what you drink, I’ll stick to chewing coffee beans.

100% of people who breathe air die. Air is killing us!

 

[hairygrandpa]

I'm sure that all the nut-shots in this thread aren't healthy.

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[Chados]

What? So now you're saying that paracetamol isn't safe when used responsibly? Because that's what this "argument" is stating.

I could list every incorrect statement you've made so far, but that'd take several hours and probably a few pages. You "proved" nothing except that you incessantly change your argument (which is riddled fallacious logic).

People can have their own opinions, but surely you must know that your opinion doesn't trump science, and it's irresponsible to masquerade your asinine opinions as scientific facts.

There are a lot of studies from ncbi claiming cardio vascular problems.

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The CNS-simulating effects of ephedrine may result in nervousness, anxiety, apprehension, fear, tension, agitation, excitation, restlessness, weakness, irritability, talkativeness, or insomnia. Dizziness, lightheadedness, and vertigo may occur, especially with large doses. Tremor or tremulousness, and hyperactive reflexes have also been reported. CNS disturbances may be prevented or overcome by administration of a sedative or tranquilizer. Large parenteral doses of ephedrine may cause confusion, delirium, hallucinations, or euphoria. Some asthmatic patients receiving continuous oral administration of the drug have taken extremely high doses in attempts to overcome refractoriness. Paranoid psychosis and visual auditory hallucinations occurred in some of these patients. Withdrawal of the drug produced rapid recovery.
Ephedrine increases the irritability of the heart muscle and may alter the rhythmic function of the ventricles. Palpitation and tachycardia may result. Extrasystoles and potentially fatal arrhythmias including ventricular fibrillation may occur, especially in patients with organic heart disease or those receiving other drugs that sensitize the heart to arrhythmias including cardiac glycosides, cyclopropane, or halogenated hydrocarbon anesthetics.


And since the ban
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I know I won't die taking ephedrine at a low dosage just like I won't die from mixing alcohol and steroids. You're starting an argument with me and you havent convinced me. If you convince me I promise you I wouldn't just say I was wrong but I would also use ephedrine. There are a tons of people claiming they had problems with ephedrine and there are also deaths reported and wether they are directly related I do not know. What I do know Is that I don't like what it does to your body and since you are pro ephedrine and anti cardarine I could use the logic, how many have died from cardarine? I believe it's safe and you don't or you're not convinced. Now we can both agree that we decide for ourselves what we chose to take and disagree with ephedrines safety. I know that steroids agent safe but I take them. I feel that I have a reason for it, not something that possibly will give me cardio vascular problems and help burn some fat.

I'm on high protein low carb diet son

 

[hairygrandpa]

Even though this thread is supposed to be about Cardarine...
Take THAT, muscleupcrohn !!! Ephedrine is bad for you!

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See? It hurts you!

 

[JoePaul39]

So if GW not only helped with what it was designed to help with, but also prevented or reduced cancer, it would be the miracle drug of the century, not scrapped entirely after spending millions on development to move on to a new attempt at a similar drug with a better safety profile, which they’re doing. What exactly are you trying to get at man?

Sounds like he may be pushing a conspiracy theory similar to those who claim big pharma has discovered a cure for cancer, but suppress it to prevent them from losing money on selling chemo drugs. Complete nonsense!

 

[JoePaul39]

Most people say the rats were pumped full of GW 30xs as much as a human would take

This is standard protocol for clinical trials in the drug development stage per my book Anabolics by William Llewellyn. He specifically mentions this in his discussion of this sarm in his latest edition of his book. In light of this, people should not be so quick to dismiss the rat studies. Dosing the rats way above what a human would ever take in the clinical trial is an established conservative method to test it’s safety. The results of the study aren’t enough evidence to conclude the Sarm would definetly cause cancer to humans, but it was enough evidence for the drug company to conclude that there was sufficient enough of a chance for them to abandon it’s development despite having already invested millions in it that would now be lost as a research and development expense with no return on investment.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

There are a lot of studies from ncbi claiming cardio vascular problems.

Invalid Link Removed

The CNS-simulating effects of ephedrine may result in nervousness, anxiety, apprehension, fear, tension, agitation, excitation, restlessness, weakness, irritability, talkativeness, or insomnia. Dizziness, lightheadedness, and vertigo may occur, especially with large doses. Tremor or tremulousness, and hyperactive reflexes have also been reported. CNS disturbances may be prevented or overcome by administration of a sedative or tranquilizer. Large parenteral doses of ephedrine may cause confusion, delirium, hallucinations, or euphoria. Some asthmatic patients receiving continuous oral administration of the drug have taken extremely high doses in attempts to overcome refractoriness. Paranoid psychosis and visual auditory hallucinations occurred in some of these patients. Withdrawal of the drug produced rapid recovery.
Ephedrine increases the irritability of the heart muscle and may alter the rhythmic function of the ventricles. Palpitation and tachycardia may result. Extrasystoles and potentially fatal arrhythmias including ventricular fibrillation may occur, especially in patients with organic heart disease or those receiving other drugs that sensitize the heart to arrhythmias including cardiac glycosides, cyclopropane, or halogenated hydrocarbon anesthetics.


And since the ban
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I know I won't die taking ephedrine at a low dosage just like I won't die from mixing alcohol and steroids. You're starting an argument with me and you havent convinced me. If you convince me I promise you I wouldn't just say I was wrong but I would also use ephedrine. There are a tons of people claiming they had problems with ephedrine and there are also deaths reported and wether they are directly related I do not know. What I do know Is that I don't like what it does to your body and since you are pro ephedrine and anti cardarine I could use the logic, how many have died from cardarine? I believe it's safe and you don't or you're not convinced. Now we can both agree that we decide for ourselves what we chose to take and disagree with ephedrines safety. I know that steroids agent safe but I take them. I feel that I have a reason for it, not something that possibly will give me cardio vascular problems and help burn some fat.

I'm on high protein low carb diet son

Dude, I’m positive you didn’t even read the studies I linked. They explicitly address your concerns and contradict your claims. Both the double-blind placebo-controlled studies and the analysis of 250,000+ users. Just drop it. You’re entitled to your opinion, but that doesn’t make it correct, or even respectable. You’re entitled to be wrong; it’s your right. If you think cardarine has a more favorable safety profile than ephedrine, that just shows how little you know about either of them.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Even though this thread is supposed to be about Cardarine...
Take THAT, muscleupcrohn !!! Ephedrine is bad for you!

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See? It hurts you!

Haha. I just don’t even get it. I guess I must be a masochist to keep subjecting myself to this lunacy. Apparently multiple double blind studies and a review of 250,000+ users holds the same weight as a case report of six people using an undisclosed amount of ephedra and some news articles. The dude doesn’t know the difference between ephedra and ephedrine.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

This is standard protocol for clinical trials in the drug development stage per my book Anabolics by William Llewellyn. He specifically mentions this in his discussion of this sarm in his latest edition of his book. In light of this, people should not be so quick to dismiss the rat studies. Dosing the rats way above what a human would ever take in the clinical trial is an established conservative method to test it’s safety. The results of the study aren’t enough evidence to conclude the Sarm would definetly cause cancer to humans, but it was enough evidence for the drug company to conclude that there was sufficient enough of a chance for them to abandon it’s development despite having already invested millions in it that would now be lost as a research and development expense with no return on investment.

Except the doses weren’t all way higher than what people use. Once you apply the HED conversion factors, some doses used were equivalent to 25-50mg. Hardly way above the 20-25mg people often use here. HED cannot be forgotten.

 

[BennyMagoo79]

Sounds like he may be pushing a conspiracy theory similar to those who claim big pharma has discovered a cure for cancer, but suppress it to prevent them from losing money on selling chemo drugs. Complete nonsense!

Actually, the rationale is logical.

 

[Johnston]

You only need to look at the history of big pharma to realise that them withholding a cure for cancer isn't actually THAT far beyond the realm of plausibility. I don't personally believe this is what they're doing, but when you're aware of the shady practices they've been involved in over the decades, it certainly raises an eyebrow.

The notion that they didn't pursue Cardarine as a drug for market therefore PROVES that it's dangerous is absolutely laughable. You can bet there's far more to that story. Just look at DMSO, antibiotics, statins and SSRIs as very obvious indicators as to their motivation and behaviour when it comes to 'helping' people. And yes, these are all VERY different examples, I'm not drawing direct comparisons... but they do illustrate a pattern and mindset.

Big pharma is a business first and foremost... let's not forget that. Their number one interest has and always will be keeping people alive for as long as possible while treating their SYMPTOMS... a one shot cure is always going to be less profitable.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

You only need to look at the history of big pharma to realise that them withholding a cure for cancer isn't actually THAT far beyond the realm of plausibility. I don't personally believe this is what they're doing, but when you're aware of the shady practices they've been involved in over the decades, it certainly raises an eyebrow.

The notion that they didn't pursue Cardarine as a drug for market therefore PROVES that it's dangerous is absolutely laughable. You can bet there's far more to that story. Just look at DMSO, antibiotics, statins and SSRIs as very obvious indicators as to their motivation and behaviour when it comes to 'helping' people. And yes, these are all VERY different examples, I'm not drawing direct comparisons... but they do illustrate a pattern and mindset.

Big pharma is a business first and foremost... let's not forget that. Their number one interest has and always will be keeping people alive for as long as possible while treating their SYMPTOMS... a one shot cure is always going to be less profitable.

Then explain why GSK, the company who developed cardarine, has multiple vaccines? Why make a vaccine when you can just treat the symptoms? Go on...

If your other examples show anything, it’s that “Big Pharma” doesn’t abandon development/sale of drugs lightly, and tolerates the presence of some adverse effects from their drugs. Therefore, if they abandoned development, they must view that the potential adverse effects are that much more severe/serious. You’re suggesting that it’s rational for a company to abandon development on a drug because it’s safe and effective? That’s illogical my friend.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Actually, the rationale is logical.

Have you already forgotten our conversation about the multiple vaccines GSK produces for things like hepatitis, and the HIV vaccine they’re working on? There’s plenty of money for a company to make with a cure. There’s so much fallacious logic ITT...

 

[Cgkone]

This is standard protocol for clinical trials in the drug development stage per my book Anabolics by William Llewellyn. He specifically mentions this in his discussion of this sarm in his latest edition of his book. In light of this, people should not be so quick to dismiss the rat studies. Dosing the rats way above what a human would ever take in the clinical trial is an established conservative method to test it’s safety. The results of the study aren’t enough evidence to conclude the Sarm would definetly cause cancer to humans, but it was enough evidence for the drug company to conclude that there was sufficient enough of a chance for them to abandon it’s development despite having already invested millions in it that would now be lost as a research and development expense with no return on investment.

BUT.....the rats were not dosed high.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

BUT.....the rats were not dosed high.

They were in some studies. What he is saying still makes sense. The studies showed enough risk for them to abandon development. Even if it doesn’t 100% prove it for humans, it was enough for them.

 

[Chados]

Dude, I’m positive you didn’t even read the studies I linked. They explicitly address your concerns and contradict your claims. Both the double-blind placebo-controlled studies and the analysis of 250,000+ users. Just drop it. You’re entitled to your opinion, but that doesn’t make it correct, or even respectable. You’re entitled to be wrong; it’s your right. If you think cardarine has a more favorable safety profile than ephedrine, that just shows how little you know about either of them.

I've read them. So it's not respectable for me to have my opinion but it's respectable for you to start an argument about everything and then tell people to be quiet? Thats narcissistic at best. It's also fair play to come to the conclusion that the studies you post are correct and the others aren't? You're doing the same thing you did with cardarine going by one study you read in year 1856 and completly dismiss any other study.


The thing with you sending me studies is that I read them but you don't read or answer the studies I send you, the other thing is that I havent said you're wrong or insulted you and yet you feel somehow threatened that everyone walking around this earth don't believe the same. It's a difference between making your own opinion and telling someone else what they should believe.

What we do know

Not tolerated by everyone.
Works better with time and can cause addiction.

Common side effects

Is like other stimulants Decongestans and causes Constriction of blood vessels veins and arteries. This alone right here tells you it never should be called safe. It should be used under supervision and medication. Yes there are other things that can cause it but mildly, it also depends on how much you use it and for how long obviously.

Increased blood pressure.
Nausea
Vomiting
Headache
Tremor
Dizziness

Possible side effects

Not recommended buy people with thyroid which is pretty much the whole US let's be honest (joke) but not really. Old people or people with previous health conditions.

It is safe under a doctor's supervision, as a medicine. It's not safe as a fatburner bought online by some kid at 16 and especially mixed with other things on the side. A banana is safe

 

[Chados]

Dude, I’m positive you didn’t even read the studies I linked. They explicitly address your concerns and contradict your claims. Both the double-blind placebo-controlled studies and the analysis of 250,000+ users. Just drop it. You’re entitled to your opinion, but that doesn’t make it correct, or even respectable. You’re entitled to be wrong; it’s your right. If you think cardarine has a more favorable safety profile than ephedrine, that just shows how little you know about either of them.

I've read them. So it's not respectable for me to have my opinion but it's respectable for you to start an argument about everything and then tell people to be quiet? Thats narcissistic at best. It's also fair play to come to the conclusion that the studies you post are correct and the others aren't? You're doing the same thing you did with cardarine going by one study you read in year 1856 and completly dismiss any other study.


The thing with you sending me studies is that I read them but you don't read or answer the studies I send you, the other thing is that I havent said you're wrong or insulted you and yet you feel somehow threatened that everyone walking around this earth don't believe the same. It's a difference between making your own opinion and telling someone else what they should believe.

What we do know

Not tolerated by everyone.
Works better with time and can cause addiction.

Common side effects

Is like other stimulants Decongestans and causes Constriction of blood vessels veins and arteries. This alone right here tells you it never should be called safe. It should be used under supervision and medication. Yes there are other things that can cause it but mildly, it also depends on how much you use it and for how long obviously.

Increased blood pressure.
Nausea
Vomiting
Headache
Tremor
Dizziness

Possible side effects

Not recommended buy people with thyroid which is pretty much the whole US let's be honest (joke) but not really. Old people or people with previous health conditions.

It is safe under a doctor's supervision, as a medicine. It's not safe as a fatburner bought online by some kid at 16 and especially mixed with other things on the side. A banana is safe

 

[Johnston]

Then explain why GSK, the company who developed cardarine, has multiple vaccines? Why make a vaccine when you can just treat the symptoms? Go on...

If you think they don't conduct cost/benefit analysis on every strategy for every drug/medication they manufacture, then you're kidding yourself. I'm not pushing any conspiracy theories here, just pointing out how big pharma operates... and it's far, far from altruistic. History demonstrates this quite clearly.

As to the Cardarine rat study, the one that is often cited subjected rats to supra-physiological dose of 10mg/kg of body weight. That equates to a 200lb/90kg man dosing around 900mg of Cardarine per day. Clearly this defies all sensible logic and holds no standing at the recommended 20mg/day dose.

Is there a sensible study that does actually have equation with the advised human dose?

Regardless, subsequent studies conducted on actual human colon and liver cancer cell lines failed to offer any evidence that PPARs such as GW increase cancer growth.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I've read them. So it's not respectable for me to have my opinion but it's respectable for you to start an argument about everything and then tell people to be quiet? Thats narcissistic at best. It's also fair play to come to the conclusion that the studies you post are correct and the others aren't? You're doing the same thing you did with cardarine going by one study you read in year 1856 and completly dismiss any other study.


The thing with you sending me studies is that I read them but you don't read or answer the studies I send you, the other thing is that I havent said you're wrong or insulted you and yet you feel somehow threatened that everyone walking around this earth don't believe the same. It's a difference between making your own opinion and telling someone else what they should believe.

What we do know

Not tolerated by everyone.
Works better with time and can cause addiction.

Common side effects

Is like other stimulants Decongestans and causes Constriction of blood vessels veins and arteries. This alone right here tells you it never should be called safe. It should be used under supervision and medication. Yes there are other things that can cause it but mildly, it also depends on how much you use it and for how long obviously.

Increased blood pressure.
Nausea
Vomiting
Headache
Tremor
Dizziness

Possible side effects

Not recommended buy people with thyroid which is pretty much the whole US let's be honest (joke) but not really. Old people or people with previous health conditions.

It is safe under a doctor's supervision, as a medicine. It's not safe as a fatburner bought online by some kid at 16 and especially mixed with other things on the side. A banana is safe

I’ve addressed your studies. For one, you have repeatedly shown you don’t know the difference between ephedra and ephedrine. Second, you asked me how many people outside the US used it for weight loss AFTER I posted a study that reviewed over a QUARTER OF A MILLION people in Denmark alone using it for that purpose WITH caffeine, another stimulant. You say:

Is like other stimulants Decongestans and causes Constriction of blood vessels veins and arteries. This alone right here tells you it never should be called safe.

Using this “logic,” caffeine “should never be called safe” either. No one is saying that a 16 year old should be using ephedrine with other fat burners. Nice straw man though...

 

[Chados]

Then explain why GSK, the company who developed cardarine, has multiple vaccines? Why make a vaccine when you can just treat the symptoms? Go on...

If your other examples show anything, it’s that “Big Pharma” doesn’t abandon development/sale of drugs lightly, and tolerates the presence of some adverse effects from their drugs. Therefore, if they abandoned development, they must view that the potential adverse effects are that much more severe/serious. You’re suggesting that it’s rational for a company to abandon development on a drug because it’s safe and effective? That’s illogical my friend.

Cardarine was never meant to cure cancer in the first place so either vaccines or a cure would probably not be possible with the knowledge they have today.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

If you think they don't conduct cost/benefit analysis on every strategy for every drug/medication they manufacture, then you're kidding yourself. I'm not pushing any conspiracy theories here, just pointing out how big pharma operates... and it's far, far from altruistic. History demonstrates this quite clearly.

As to the Cardarine rat study, the one that is often cited subjected rats to supra-physiological dose of 10mg/kg of body weight. That equates to a 200lb/90kg man dosing around 900mg of Cardarine per day. Clearly this defies all sensible logic and holds no standing at the recommended 20mg/day dose.

Is there a sensible study that does actually have equation with the advised human dose?

Regardless, subsequent studies conducted on actual human colon and liver cancer cell lines failed to offer any evidence that PPARs such as GW increase cancer growth.

No, 10mg/kg in rats does not equate to 900mg for a person. You forgot, or don’t know about, HED. Take that 10mg/kg, multiply it by 0.16; THAT is your human dose in mg/kg (1.6mg/kg). For your 90kg person, that’s 144mg. Also, some studies used as low as 3 and 5 mg/kg in rats (43 and 72mg for your 200lb person).

Furthermore, 20mg was never the recommended dose by the developers. If I recall, their very limited studies used 5-10mg/day.

If you don’t know what HED is, you really have no place claiming to be able to give an educated opinion on its safety.

 

[Chados]

I’ve addressed your studies. For one, you have repeatedly shown you don’t know the difference between ephedra and ephedrine. Second, you asked me how many people outside the US used it for weight loss AFTER I posted a study that reviewed over a QUARTER OF A MILLION people in Denmark alone using it for that purpose WITH caffeine, another stimulant. You say:

Using this “logic,” caffeine “should never be called safe” either. No one is saying that a 16 year old should be using ephedrine with other fat burners. Nice straw man though...

Never said it has to be other fatburners. It causes constriction of blood vessels and should not be used without a doctor's supervision. The reason it's dangerous isn't because you will have problems but others might and that's why you can't buy it everywhere anymore. You're not gonna see anyone restrict coffee.

 

[Johnston]

No, 10mg/kg in rats does not equate to 900mg for a person. You forgot, or don’t know about, HED. Take that 10mg/kg, multiply it by 0.16; THAT is your human dose in mg/kg (1.6mg/kg). For your 90kg person, that’s 144mg. Also, some studies used as low as 3 and 5 mg/kg in rats (43 and 72mg for your 200lb person).

Furthermore, 20mg was never the recommended dose by the developers. If I recall, their very limited studies used 5-10mg/day.

If you don’t know what HED is, you really have no place claiming to be able to give an educated opinion on its safety.

OK, well let's take 144mg as the dose then... still equates to an obscene and abuse level quantity compared to what humans are taking. And still, there is no evidence of cancer in other studies that I am aware of.

Water is fatal in a high enough dose, so is too much oxygen! So I'm not sure what your point is exactly. That study really proves nothing... nothing necessarily informative or helpful anyway.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Never said it has to be other fatburners. It causes constriction of blood vessels and should not be used without a doctor's supervision. The reason it's dangerous isn't because you will have problems but others might and that's why you can't buy it everywhere anymore. You're not gonna see anyone restrict coffee.

No. It’s restricted because people use it to make meth. You can buy it OTC in Canada at your friendly neighborhood store, and at your local pharmacy in the US without any script or supervision; you just can’t buy a ton, because they don’t want you using it to make meth. Get your facts straight.

Edit: also, so you concede that coffee isn’t safe, even if it won’t be restricted? Because that’s what your logic says.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

OK, well let's take 144mg as the dose then... still equates to an obscene and abuse level quantity compared to what humans are taking. And still, there is no evidence of cancer in other studies that I am aware of.

Water is fatal in a high enough dose, so is too much oxygen! So I'm not sure what your point is exactly. That study really proves nothing... nothing necessarily informative or helpful anyway.

But what is a factor of safety in animal studies? Surely you should know how/why studies use the doses they do. This is a very good read that explains a lot:
https://www.fda.gov/downloads/drugs/guidances/ucm078932.pdf

Also, there were many studies that noted at least increased rate of cancer growth, if not actually causing cancer, but maybe you forgot those studies.

Comparing cardarine to water and oxygen is even sillier than you not knowing what HED is...

 

[Chados]

No. It’s restricted because people use it to make meth. You can buy it OTC in Canada at your friendly neighborhood store, and at your local pharmacy in the US without any script or supervision; you just can’t buy a ton, because they don’t want you using it to make meth. Get your facts straight.

Yeah and Canada is the country with all world a knowledge. Let's put it this way, I used to live in the us and it's fairly similar to Europe. Ephedrine is illegal in many places here but not in Canada and also US?

Uk sell prhormones most other countries don't. Same with sarms. You have way too much problems in America for ephedrine to be a problem. Wouldn't surprise me if ephedrine was sold in small doses to prevent people from doing cocain. The world's pharmacies are completly different everywhere.

Holland and Portugal have legal weed smoking and if I'm not mistaken has less users than countries that call it illegal, people that never done it even. This could very well mean that you have far less people using ephedrine. That doesn't make legality bad but it doesnt make Canada the lab rats to prove it's safety. If it causes addiction and constriction of blood vessels that's worrying enough.

You know meth users claim it's safe too and it does the same thing.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

That doesn't make legality bad but it doesnt make Canada the lab rats to prove it's safety. If it causes addiction and constriction of blood vessels that's worrying enough.

No, the multiple double-blind placebo-controlled studies and reviews of hundreds of thousands of users do. These things demonstrate its safety. Caffeine can be vasoconstrictive too; therefore you’re saying that caffeine isn’t ever safe either. What’s so hard to understand about this?

 

[Chados]

No, the multiple double-blind placebo-controlled studies and reviews of hundreds of thousands of users do. These things demonstrate its safety. Caffeine can be vasoconstrictive too; therefore you’re saying that caffeine isn’t ever safe either. What’s so hard to understand about this?

Yes and have you ever heard a complaint from someone drinking coffee?. I know about that study and what about the other studies? I'm not denying you can use ephedrine safely I just don't agree it's a safe drug to be used without supervision.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Yes and have you ever heard a complaint from someone drinking coffee?. I know about that study and what about the other studies? I'm not denying you can use ephedrine safely I just don't agree it's a safe drug to be used without supervision.

Yeah, I’ve heard about a ton of people who say they can’t even drink a cup without feeling like ****. That doesn’t mean it’s not safe. A favorable safety profile doesn’t mean a complete lack of transient adverse effects. Also, I’m not talking about “that” study, I’m talking about multiple studies that all came to the same conclusions. Ephedrine, even with caffeine, is quite safe and well tolerated when used at up to 20mg 3x per day with 200mg caffeine 3x per day as well. Supervision isn’t a bad idea if you’re using it to “treat” obesity, but if you keep your dose reasonable, it’s actually quite safe. If you experience adverse effects, they’re likely minor and go away after a few hours; if it doesn’t treat you well, don’t use it again. Same with your cup of coffee. There no reason to go above 20mg 3x/day ephedrine HCL, and no reason to use unstandardized ephedra instead of ephedrine HCL. There’s just no need, and using it correctly/responsibly makes it much, much safer.

 

[Chados]

Yeah, I’ve heard about a ton of people who say they can’t even drink a cup without feeling like ****. That doesn’t mean it’s not safe. A favorable safety profile doesn’t mean a complete lack of transient adverse effects. Also, I’m not talking about “that” study, I’m talking about multiple studies that all came to the same conclusions. Ephedrine, even with caffeine, is quite safe and well tolerated when used at up to 20mg 3x per day with 200mg caffeine 3x per day as well. Supervision isn’t a bad idea if you’re using it to “treat” obesity, but if you keep your dose reasonable, it’s actually quite safe. If you experience adverse effects, they’re likely minor and go away after a few hours; if it doesn’t treat you well, don’t use it again. Same with your cup of coffee. There no reason to go above 20mg 3x/day ephedrine HCL, and no reason to use unstandardized ephedra instead of ephedrine HCL. There’s just no need, and using it correctly/responsibly makes it much, much safer.

People feel like **** yes but if that's not an absurd dose of coffee it's mostly a bad stomach. I agree that it's quite safe as you stated now, but not that it's safe. I don't think every person will tolerate it the same way and unknown cardiovascular problems exist and they aren't rare. There are far worse stimulants out there than ephedrine or ephedra and I would take it over most of them if we don't count coffee in here or perhaps an energy drink once a month that by the way does nothing to me so I have no idea why i get it. I have astma and ephedrine was legal before, other astma medicines does the same thing pretty much but aren't addictive, also not as strong. They do however bring a concern to me if not taken while needed, I'm not very sensitive to it but other people get some serious shakiness and the heart starts to pump much harder. I've used ephedrine and I didn't react so bad to it while my friend dropped 30 pounds of course with diet and as an overweight person and had some serious shakes, couldn't sleep and had strong heart pumps.

Goes to show were all different and that's really the main reason I feel it should be under supervision. Most people don't walk around knowing their cholesterol,blood pressure etc.

 

[ax1]

And since the ban
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I know I won't die taking ephedrine at a low dosage just like I won't die from mixing alcohol and steroids. You're starting an argument with me and you havent convinced me. If you convince me I promise you I wouldn't just say I was wrong but I would also use ephedrine. There are a tons of people claiming they had problems with ephedrine and there are also deaths reported and wether they are directly related I do not know. What I do know Is that I don't like what it does to your body and since you are pro ephedrine and anti cardarine I could use the logic, how many have died from cardarine? I believe it's safe and you don't or you're not convinced. Now we can both agree that we decide for ourselves what we chose to take and disagree with ephedrines safety. I know that steroids agent safe but I take them. I feel that I have a reason for it, not something that possibly will give me cardio vascular problems and help burn some fat.

I'm on high protein low carb diet son

Thats poison control data stuff, I actually had run into this article just a few days ago about that along with the same time period from 2002 and up which brings up issues how the data is generic, exposure is not a "adverse event" how the poison control centers werent designed to be adverse event surveillance systems.

Here is the link, not like you will read it but Im sure others will.
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And keep in mind, if everybody stops eating Captain Crunch you can no longer claim people died from exposure to that either.

 

[ax1]

The thing with you sending me studies is that I read them but you don't read or answer the studies I send you, the other thing is that I havent said you're wrong or insulted you and yet you feel somehow threatened that everyone walking around this earth don't believe the same. It's a difference between making your own opinion and telling someone else what they should believe.

Your not posting studies, your posting biased opinion pieces or random stuff pulled off of pubmed that dont follow through and show actual relevant data or research to support the claims. I see a bunch of empty claims and nothing to back it up.

 

[ax1]

People feel like **** yes but if that's not an absurd dose of coffee it's mostly a bad stomach.

Geez, never had people complaining about a "bad stomach" from coffee. Usually its jitterness, anxiety, nausea, insomnia, headaches, tinnitus. It can definitely agitate pre-existing conditions (known or unkown) as is possible with ephedrine.

Webmd doesnt even list "bad stomach" as side effects unless you have a pre-existing stomach condition, your clearly making crap up as you go along.
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[muscleupcrohn]

Your not posting studies, your posting biased opinion pieces or random stuff pulled off of pubmed that dont follow through and show actual relevant data or research to support the claims.

This. Just because a PubMed paper says something doesn’t mean it’s inherently correct if it’s not supported by actual evidence. I posted multiple placebo-controlled studies and a review/analysis of 250,000+ users; that’s the evidence that paints the picture, not one-off case reports using undisclosed, unstandardized doses of ephedra and opinion/news pieces.

 

[Chados]

I posted studies from ncbi. It's not exactly that crazy to imagine ephedrine has similar effects as cocain, amphetamine etc. All these are probably regarded as safe if used properly. It's also not crazy to assume people with bad hearts would have to take extra caution. You also have to take into account the possible addiction as a safety problem. Addiction very often equals abuse. If you look at a study under supervision and then look at the real life experience it might not be the same outcome. I don't know anyone that died from medication at the hospital personally do you? I do know people dying from medication at home. That's the safety issue not when prescribed by a doctor. It's like saying testosterone isn't dangerous, sure if you follow a protocol by a doctor but when someone decide to self medicate 1gr it's not that safe. The other thing is, do we really know the long term effects?

 

[Chados]

Geez, never head people complaining about a "bad stomach" from coffee. Usually its jitterness, anxiety, nausea, insomnia, headaches, tinnitus. It can definitely agitate pre-existing conditions (known or unkown) as is possible with ephedrine.

Webmd doesnt even list "bad stomach" as side effects unless you have a pre-existing stomach condition, your clearly making crap up as you go along.
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People get bad stomach all the time from too much coffee now YOU are talking crap. Can you become shaky sure but most drinker don't feel that because we are used to drink it.

I come from the country with most coffee drinkers in the world and I have never in my life experienced anxiety or heard of anyone experience that.

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[muscleupcrohn]

I posted studies from ncbi. It's not exactly that crazy to imagine ephedrine has similar effects as cocain, amphetamine etc. All these are probably regarded as safe if used properly. It's also not crazy to assume people with bad hearts would have to take extra caution. You also have to take into account the possible addiction as a safety problem. Addiction very often equals abuse. If you look at a study under supervision and then look at the real life experience it might not be the same outcome. I don't know anyone that died from medication at the hospital personally do you? I do know people dying from medication at home. That's the safety issue not when prescribed by a doctor. It's like saying testosterone isn't dangerous, sure if you follow a protocol by a doctor but when someone decide to self medicate 1gr it's not that safe. The other thing is, do we really know the long term effects?

Dude, your logic is beyond fallacious. First, you DRASTICALLY overstating the addictive potential of ephedrine, which you'd know if you actually read the **** studies I posted that you claimed to have read. The actual double-blind placebo-controlled studies have shown:

The side effects are minor and transient and no withdrawal symptoms have been found.

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Withdrawal symptoms were mild, transient and their frequency and severity were not different between the placebo and active groups.

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Before you go posting your one-off case report, please educate yourself on basic principles of scientific research and know that a handful of anecdotal case reports, which, if you read them, will even explicitly state that they can't prove anything, do not disprove or overrule multiple double-blind, placebo-controlled studies.

Also, testosterone use, with doctor supervision or otherwise, does have some risks and dangers, so I'm not even sure what you're talking about, but lets not go on a tangent of a tangent of a tangent.

Are you honestly saying that ephedrine use isn't safe because you can overdose on it?

Use it at the freaking recommended dose, which has been extensively demonstrated to be VERY safe and well-tolerated. Arguing that it's NOT safe because it can be abused by idiots ODing on it is asinine. By this logic, literally everything on earth isn't safe, because it can be abused/ODed on. And before you go bringing up cardarine here, please not that something like ephedrine has MULTIPLE REPEATED safety studies for months, as well as MULTIPLE DECADES of field experience; cardarine has none of these, and only a handful of very short-term human studies using doses lower than what people here use/recommend.

Your logic is wildly inconsistent and fallacious, and you clearly haven't read any of the studies I've posted, as they directly answer and contradict your claims.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

People get bad stomach all the time from too much coffee now YOU are talking crap. Can you become shaky sure but most drinker don't feel that because we are used to drink it.

I come from the country with most coffee drinkers in the world and I have never in my life experienced anxiety or heard of anyone experience that.

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You've never heard of caffeine-induced anxiety? What on earth is wrong with you? You're talking about deaths caused by ephedrine as if they're a common/relevant occurrence, but you're denying that caffeine can cause anxiety?

The molecular targets of caffeine, namely the adenosine receptors, also have great genetic variability. For example, common variants of the gene encoding for the A2a receptor can disrupt sleep (51) or cause anxiety in some individuals (52) after ingesting caffeine.

Other studies have found that anxiety can be produced at a wide range of doses (200–2,000 mg of caffeine/day)

There is also good evidence that higher caffeine use is associated with greater reporting of anxiety symptoms

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Caffeine can cause anxiety symptoms in normal individuals, especially in vulnerable patients, like those with pre-existing anxiety disorders.

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I really hope you're trolling at this point, because it's either that, or you're just delusional.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I posted studies from ncbi. It's not exactly that crazy to imagine ephedrine has similar effects as cocain, amphetamine etc. All these are probably regarded as safe if used properly. It's also not crazy to assume people with bad hearts would have to take extra caution. You also have to take into account the possible addiction as a safety problem. Addiction very often equals abuse. If you look at a study under supervision and then look at the real life experience it might not be the same outcome. I don't know anyone that died from medication at the hospital personally do you? I do know people dying from medication at home. That's the safety issue not when prescribed by a doctor. It's like saying testosterone isn't dangerous, sure if you follow a protocol by a doctor but when someone decide to self medicate 1gr it's not that safe. The other thing is, do we really know the long term effects?

Also, I don't think you know the difference between a paper/article and a study. Just because they're both on NCBI doesn't mean they're the same, because they're not.

 

[Johnston]

But what is a factor of safety in animal studies? Surely you should know how/why studies use the doses they do. This is a very good read that explains a lot:
https://www.fda.gov/downloads/drugs/guidances/ucm078932.pdf

Also, there were many studies that noted at least increased rate of cancer growth, if not actually causing cancer, but maybe you forgot those studies.

Comparing cardarine to water and oxygen is even sillier than you not knowing what HED is...

I am not comparing Cardarine to water and oxygen lol! Shame you chose to take such a simplistic view of that comment. I thought it would be obvious I was merely pointing out how pointless it is to 'prove' the supposed danger of something when an absurdly large dose is taken... because DUH! If you can show me a comparable study where Cardarine is shown to be dangerous at a dose comparable to what people are taking, then fair enough. However, you must be aware of the studies that show no effect on cancer cells whatsoever, and others that actually show other benefits? I'm not saying take this as gospel either, but the evidence as a whole hardly paints Cardarine as a deadly carcinogen that we should all avoid at our peril.

Also, let's not forget the audience here. I imagine most of us, myself included, eat very healthy diets, packed with fruits, veg and other supplements that have been scientifically proven to reduce cancer risk, not to mention exercise itself! So if there is an unknown risk with Cardarine, there is every chance many of us are going above and beyond in everything else we do regards our lifestyle choices to mitigate that risk to a considerable degree. Impossible to quantify that of course, but worth pointing out. I'm pretty sure those rats weren't so clued up.