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Liver damage from oral AAS greatly exggerated

This is written by Mike Arnold first we have ratios.

When it comes to women and AAS, the first thing she needs to know is that all steroids can potentially cause androgenic (masculinizing) side effects in all tissues, as androgens are not selective in terms of AR (androgen receptor) binding…they simply possess differing degrees of potency in these tissues. In laymen’s terms, every steroid has the potential to cause every androgenic side effect. Not a single one is exempt. They simply vary in their ability to do so. One mistake many prospective steroid users make is using androgenic ratings as a measure of androgenic potency. They believe this tell them how likely a certain drug is to cause androgenic side effects throughout the entire body, without realizing that androgenic ratings were used to determine androgenic potency in only one tissue—the prostate. Being that women don’t have prostates, androgenic ratings are completely worthless in helping a women assess androgenic risk in tissues such as the vocal chords, scalp, skin, clitoris, etc.

Just because a steroid may have a high androgenic rating in prostate tissue, it does NOT necessarily mean that it has that same degree of potency in other areas of the body. Likewise, having a weak androgenic rating does not necessarily indicate reduced potency in non-prostate tissues. There are many steroids which demonstrate this type of imbalance. Masteron is a great example. With an androgenic rating of 40, it would be considered below average in the androgenic rating department. Yet, experience has shown it to be pretty harsh on the hair line, causing significant hair loss in a large percentage of genetically predisposed individuals. Clearly, having a low androgenic rating does not mean that a drug is a weak androgenic in general. The bottom line is that each steroid must be evaluated individually when attempting to asses side effect risk.


Second we have anavar vs superdrol

Since androgenic activity in non-prostate tissues was never scientifically measured, the best we can do is guess based on real-world experience. While this isn’t ideal, it’s all we’ve got and it is certainly a hell of a lot better than nothing at all. Fortunately, the combined experience of generations of bodybuilders has given us a pretty good idea of how each steroid effects in the body, particularly when it comes to external side effects like hair loss, voice changes, hair growth, etc. Although some may find the following recommendation to be somewhat controversial, extensive personal experience (in myself, clients, and many others I know) has proven it to be an effective and relatively safe course of action. I am talking about Superdrol. Yes, that Superdrol.

When evaluated purely from a masculinizing standpoint, I have found SD to provide the best balance of growth to masculinizing side effects. As most of you know by now, SD is an extremely powerful drug, with many bodybuilders claiming that no other drug ever allowed them to build as much muscle tissue as quickly as SD did. I will personally attest to this fact, as have many 1,000’s of other users all over the world. However, its incredible myotrophic potency has led many to assume that its androgenic character must be similar, when in reality it is extremely mild in comparison to almost all other steroids. In fact, SD’s has a Q ratio of 20:1 (the same as Anavar), which basically means that its anabolic effect is 20X greater than its androgenic effect. Even though Q Ratios are based partially on a steroid’s androgenic potency in the prostate, anabolic ratings can oftentimes give us a good idea of how a steroid might act in other tissues. In this case Superdrol displays very weak androgenic activity in many androgen responsive tissues, including the scalp, skin, and likely the vocal chords as well.

Overall, I have found it to be about as mild as Anavar (in terms of masculinization) when compared on a mg to mg basis. However, SD is a much more potent growth agent, with just 5 mg/day providing a growth response several times greater than an equivalent dose of Anavar. This increased myotrophic potency allows the drug to be used in one of two ways. She can either experience significantly greater growth with a side effect risk similar to Anavar, or she can experience roughly the same amount of growth with a side effect risk significantly below Anavar.

In other words, SD is actually less likely to cause masculinizing side effects than Anavar when used at doses that supply an equivalent muscle building effect. Again, this is due to its much more favorable androgenic to myotrophic ratio. Just to give you an idea of how strong this stuff is, most women will gain more muscle with just 10 mg of SD than they will with 50 mg of Anavar. Or, if a woman wishes to minimize the risk of side effects, she could use as little as 2-3 mg/day while still making gaining equivalent to 15-20 mg of Anavar. With such a low dose the possibility of experiencing meaningful adverse effects is almost non-existent.
 
Anyone that can use anavar legally can mix it with coffee and creatine. Even if what you're saying is true which is not, nobody's gonna buy a creatine and coffee dosed var for triple the price.

Absolutely, but they cannot *sell* or *market* this product in any way if a patent already exists for the formulation.

Seriously, man, think.
 
It's not about the money for me -- I am already very well paid in my profession.

I'd give all I know out for free, but I'm working on a book, and trying to get a research grant to study some new and unexplored areas of pharmacology that we in this community might benefit from. I paid a lot, a whole-f'ing-lot, for my education and my time *is* valuable.
Hey don't got to explain it to me brother.
Like I said this is in my top 3 favorite threads.
Its very interesting. A plethora of info.
Ill be implementing lots of the stuff from this thread.
But the chance of all the brains in the community missing the magic of anavar is a stretch.
I'm sure its a killer drug.
I can see tweaking the way we take it mattering to.
It's all good.
You did a great job presenting your case.


It's not about the money for me -- I am already very well paid in my profession.

I'd give all I know out for free, but I'm working on a book, and trying to get a research grant to study some new and unexplored areas of pharmacology that we in this community might benefit from. I paid a lot, a whole-f'ing-lot, for my education and my time *is* valuable.
 
I am not responding to your posts that post is directed at the OP. Are you the OP of the thread? Or just a jackass who thinks his textbook makes him immune to stupidity?

Well you're a nasty little troll, aren't you? You get no more responses from me. Have a nice life.
 
Trolling a thread is to take it off course. You are advocating dangerous AAS use. I feel a responsibility to warn people of destroying their health because what you are saying “sounds good”. Take that for what it’s worth. There are reasons we limit oral AAS usage timeframes, and it isn’t because we don’t want to run them all year.
 
I suspect Destroying is a DEA shill. I've dealt with a *lot* of DEA guys in my profession, they'll almost always exactly act like this. Scaremongering and then when you confront them and let them know *they* are not pharmacologists, they attack your education while extolling their "real world drug experience"
 
I suspect Destroying is a DEA shill. I've dealt with a *lot* of DEA guys in my profession, they'll almost always exactly act like this. Scaremongering and then when you confront them and let them know *they* are not pharmacologists, they attack your education while extolling their "real world drug experience"

You’re a real sharp cookie, go pop 50 Anavar loser, BTW if you think I’m a cop you’d better hide because we’re going to bust down your door tonight!! ****ing Moron.
 
Trolling a thread is to take it off course. You are advocating dangerous AAS use. I feel a responsibility to warn people of destroying their health because what you are saying “sounds good”. Take that for what it’s worth. There are reasons we limit oral AAS usage timeframes, and it isn’t because we don’t want to run them all year.

None of the research Ive read so far contradicts any of Spurfys claims. I even vaguely recall going over an Oxandrolone meta-study that examined all the reported adverse effects; it was surprising to me that given some of the doses used (and durations) that adverse liver reactions were not common at all. Most researchers seem to agree that any enzyme elevations are "transient".

Im still sympathetic to your general cautionings, what can you present that might support your claims (other than "var is a C17aa compound")?
 
This is written by Mike Arnold first we have ratios.

When it comes to women and AAS, the first thing she needs to know is that all steroids can potentially cause androgenic (masculinizing) side effects in all tissues, as androgens are not selective in terms of AR (androgen receptor) binding…they simply possess differing degrees of potency in these tissues. In laymen’s terms, every steroid has the potential to cause every androgenic side effect. Not a single one is exempt. They simply vary in their ability to do so. One mistake many prospective steroid users make is using androgenic ratings as a measure of androgenic potency. They believe this tell them how likely a certain drug is to cause androgenic side effects throughout the entire body, without realizing that androgenic ratings were used to determine androgenic potency in only one tissue—the prostate. Being that women don’t have prostates, androgenic ratings are completely worthless in helping a women assess androgenic risk in tissues such as the vocal chords, scalp, skin, clitoris, etc.

Just because a steroid may have a high androgenic rating in prostate tissue, it does NOT necessarily mean that it has that same degree of potency in other areas of the body. Likewise, having a weak androgenic rating does not necessarily indicate reduced potency in non-prostate tissues. There are many steroids which demonstrate this type of imbalance. Masteron is a great example. With an androgenic rating of 40, it would be considered below average in the androgenic rating department. Yet, experience has shown it to be pretty harsh on the hair line, causing significant hair loss in a large percentage of genetically predisposed individuals. Clearly, having a low androgenic rating does not mean that a drug is a weak androgenic in general. The bottom line is that each steroid must be evaluated individually when attempting to asses side effect risk.


Second we have anavar vs superdrol

Since androgenic activity in non-prostate tissues was never scientifically measured, the best we can do is guess based on real-world experience. While this isn’t ideal, it’s all we’ve got and it is certainly a hell of a lot better than nothing at all. Fortunately, the combined experience of generations of bodybuilders has given us a pretty good idea of how each steroid effects in the body, particularly when it comes to external side effects like hair loss, voice changes, hair growth, etc. Although some may find the following recommendation to be somewhat controversial, extensive personal experience (in myself, clients, and many others I know) has proven it to be an effective and relatively safe course of action. I am talking about Superdrol. Yes, that Superdrol.

When evaluated purely from a masculinizing standpoint, I have found SD to provide the best balance of growth to masculinizing side effects. As most of you know by now, SD is an extremely powerful drug, with many bodybuilders claiming that no other drug ever allowed them to build as much muscle tissue as quickly as SD did. I will personally attest to this fact, as have many 1,000’s of other users all over the world. However, its incredible myotrophic potency has led many to assume that its androgenic character must be similar, when in reality it is extremely mild in comparison to almost all other steroids. In fact, SD’s has a Q ratio of 20:1 (the same as Anavar), which basically means that its anabolic effect is 20X greater than its androgenic effect. Even though Q Ratios are based partially on a steroid’s androgenic potency in the prostate, anabolic ratings can oftentimes give us a good idea of how a steroid might act in other tissues. In this case Superdrol displays very weak androgenic activity in many androgen responsive tissues, including the scalp, skin, and likely the vocal chords as well.

Overall, I have found it to be about as mild as Anavar (in terms of masculinization) when compared on a mg to mg basis. However, SD is a much more potent growth agent, with just 5 mg/day providing a growth response several times greater than an equivalent dose of Anavar. This increased myotrophic potency allows the drug to be used in one of two ways. She can either experience significantly greater growth with a side effect risk similar to Anavar, or she can experience roughly the same amount of growth with a side effect risk significantly below Anavar.

In other words, SD is actually less likely to cause masculinizing side effects than Anavar when used at doses that supply an equivalent muscle building effect. Again, this is due to its much more favorable androgenic to myotrophic ratio. Just to give you an idea of how strong this stuff is, most women will gain more muscle with just 10 mg of SD than they will with 50 mg of Anavar. Or, if a woman wishes to minimize the risk of side effects, she could use as little as 2-3 mg/day while still making gaining equivalent to 15-20 mg of Anavar. With such a low dose the possibility of experiencing meaningful adverse effects is almost non-existent.

Not that it’s safe enough to use for truly extended periods the way var is, but this was still a very cool read.
 
^ya, whether you agree with him or not, Mike is a great writer. Very engaging and easy to follow.
 
Without scouring the net for specific scientific papers in relation to possible liver and kidney my damage, a quick google search will pull the webmd and drugs dot com side effect profile for Anavar.

Even Broscience will tell you that you can only take it for so long. I personally love Anavar. But it is flat out stupid to think that you can run it indefinitely without issue.

It has been altered at the 17th position, thus MAKING it liver toxic. The alteration is toxic. It’s like adding an Acetyl group to a drug.

The kidney effects are well known, Anavar is kidney toxic.

Again. I love my Anavar, but I wouldn’t be so foolish as to run it longer than 3 months.

I do not care to argue the matter. Everything in moderation, especially 17aa substances.
 
Without scouring the net for specific scientific papers in relation to possible liver and kidney my damage, a quick google search will pull the webmd and drugs dot com side effect profile for Anavar.

Even Broscience will tell you that you can only take it for so long. I personally love Anavar. But it is flat out stupid to think that you can run it indefinitely without issue.

It has been altered at the 17th position, thus MAKING it liver toxic. The alteration is toxic. It’s like adding an Acetyl group to a drug.

The kidney effects are well known, Anavar is kidney toxic.

Again. I love my Anavar, but I wouldn’t be so foolish as to run it longer than 3 months.

I do not care to argue the matter. Everything in moderation, especially 17aa substances.
Ugh methyl doesn't not mean liver toxic. It's just happens that an alkylation at the 17a position, more often than not, means liver toxicity with hormones. So people think oooo all 17a methyl groups are liver toxic, nope wrong.
 
Look NAC, I just don’t want people to take this guy at his word and run Var for a year straight and seriously mess themselves up. How can you read something that you know is bull**** and just move on? I’m calling bull****. Done and done. I’ve taken Anavar, Dbol, Superdrol, Tbol, Winstrol, Ermalone, and they are all toxic in varying degrees. If you want a truly non toxic oral you can run all year, and you can afford it, go with Primo, Proviron, Andriol. These are the only oral AAS as far as I know that can be run all year. Even Primo and Proviron I think have a methyl group at the 2a position, no where near as toxic as 17aa, but guess what, for some people it will have a far greater toxic load than others.
 
Look NAC, I just don’t want people to take this guy at his word and run Var for a year straight and seriously mess themselves up. How can you read something that you know is bull**** and just move on? I’m calling bull****. Done and done. I’ve taken Anavar, Dbol, Superdrol, Tbol, Winstrol, Ermalone, and they are all toxic in varying degrees. If you want a truly non toxic oral you can run all year, and you can afford it, go with Primo, Proviron, Andriol. These are the only oral AAS as far as I know that can be run all year. Even Primo and Proviron I think have a methyl group at the 2a position, no where near as toxic as 17aa, but guess what, for some people it will have a far greater toxic load than others.
God damn it methyl does mean toxic. Want to know what has 3 fuking methyls, that you consume daily, caffeine!!!!!!!! That data shows anavar not being liver toxic. Stop being a twat.
 
God damn it methyl does mean toxic. Want to know what has 3 fuking methyls, that you consume daily, caffeine!!!!!!!! That data shows anavar not being liver toxic. Stop being a twat.

What’s a twat? Seriously, are you going to compare steroids to coffee?? Did you ever see someone with Jaundice? Did you even bother to look up Anavar and Kidney issues? Or are you just regurgitating.the nonsense in this thread?
 
What’s a twat? Seriously, are you going to compare steroids to coffee?? Did you ever see someone with Jaundice? Did you even bother to look up Anavar and Kidney issues? Or are you just regurgitating.the nonsense in this thread?
No bringing facts. Methylation doesn't mean liver toxic, used caffeine as example. Lots of medicines are methylated and quite a few have a 17a methyl group as well. Yes I have look it to anavars effects on the kidneys, and there is a connection, but a loose one at best. Also a twat is derogatory word for vagina, and is often said with a British accent to put more emphasis on it. Also I am not advocating anything spurfy has preached.
 
No bringing facts. Methylation doesn't mean liver toxic, used caffeine as example. Lots of medicines are methylated and quite a few have a 17a methyl group as well. Yes I have look it to anavars effects on the kidneys, and there is a connection, but a loose one at best. Also a twat is derogatory word for vagina, and is often said with a British accent to put more emphasis on it. Also I am not advocating anything spurfy has preached.

I was being sarcastic about the twat thing. Caffeine is a proven mutagen. DNA Methylation can cause cancer. Yes we need methyl groups, but cmon dude, anyone who believes this crap just wants so badly for it not to be toxic. It’s called plausible deniability.
 
I wonder if Destroying got his PhD in Pharmacology and Toxicology at the same prestigious university as I did. Clearly, he knows a hell of a lot.
 
I was being sarcastic about the twat thing. Caffeine is a proven mutagen. DNA Methylation can cause cancer. Yes we need methyl groups, but cmon dude, anyone who believes this crap just wants so badly for it not to be toxic. It’s called plausible deniability.
Caffeine has shown to have anti-"mutagenic" effects. Also that's a terrible word choice. I'm out, I'm done with this. The broscience is no longer entertaining to me.
 
Caffeine has shown to have anti-"mutagenic" effects. Also that's a terrible word choice. I'm out, I'm done with this. The broscience is no longer entertaining to me.

Actually the jury is out on that one. Most recent studies say it’s bad for you again. Seems every week the caffeine/coffee studies contradict one another.
 
It's the roasting process that is causing the cancer label to be leveled on coffee, not coffee itself.
 
It's the roasting process that is causing the cancer label to be leveled on coffee, not coffee itself.

No there are studies that say the caffeine is a mutagenic compound (causes cell mutations that may lead to cancer) There are contradictory studies that label it as anti mutagenic as well. One week coffee is good for you, the next week it’s bad
 
Well let's be honest. Var is relatively safe and one of the safest steroids but is it side effect free? Does it have 0 androgenic effects? Maybe not. We're not in this game to live as healthy as possible are we? At one point hopefully we all stop using anything else then test at trt dose
 
What’s a twat? Seriously, are you going to compare steroids to coffee?? Did you ever see someone with Jaundice? Did you even bother to look up Anavar and Kidney issues? Or are you just regurgitating.the nonsense in this thread?
Yes I have seen people with Jaundice. I work in a hospital. And what your regurgitating is broscience or your own problems cause you did something stupid while running orals
 
Well let's be honest. Var is relatively safe and one of the safest steroids but is it side effect free? Does it have 0 androgenic effects? Maybe not. We're not in this game to live as healthy as possible are we? At one point hopefully we all stop using anything else then test at trt dose

Most sensible comment on here.
 
I was being sarcastic about the twat thing. Caffeine is a proven mutagen. DNA Methylation can cause cancer. Yes we need methyl groups, but cmon dude, anyone who believes this crap just wants so badly for it not to be toxic. It’s called plausible deniability.
Oh no....I'm gonna get Cancer from my pot of coffee a day
 
Choose your way to die, and live it. You'll get my coffee mug when you pry it from my cold dead hand. Back off mr.

:afro:
 
Yes I have seen people with Jaundice. I work in a hospital. And what your regurgitating is broscience or your own problems cause you did something stupid while running orals

So now you’re clairvoyant as well? No actually I don’t have liver/kidney issues because I limit my usage to reasonable timeframes/doses. Something stupid would be reading this thread and believing that Var is non toxic and I can run it forever. It never ceases to amaze me the idiots surrounding me I the world. You wanna run Anavar forever and ever?! Good luck to you.

Peace.
 
So now you’re clairvoyant as well? No actually I don’t have liver/kidney issues because I limit my usage to reasonable timeframes/doses. Something stupid would be reading this thread and believing that Var is non toxic and I can run it forever. It never ceases to amaze me the idiots surrounding me I the world.
Now I'm an idiot. Sounds like your getting desperate with your highschool education that you probably got a week before you joined this site.
 
Now I'm an idiot. Sounds like your getting desperate with your highschool education that you probably got a week before you joined this site.

If the shoe fits... ANYONE who thinks they can run ANY 17aa steroid indefinitely without seriously harming their long term health is an idiot. No question about it, idiot.
 
If the shoe fits... ANYONE who thinks they can run ANY 17aa steroid indefinitely without seriously harming their long term health is an idiot. No question about it, idiot.
I never said I would run it indefinitely. Was just butting in cause of your claim of severe liver damage. I don't run orals longer than 4-8 weeks based off of the compound and what my goal is....And your claim that coffee is bad. And you asked if anyone saw anyone with Jaundice I see them everyday in the hospital I work in.
 
Spurfy seriously speaking, if you have found something that nobody knows about and nobody experienced while using it I will applaud you but you gotta understand that it's a bit hard to believe what you're saying considering a whole professional bodybuilding world will claim that tren is the most powerful steroid they've ever used. You have posted 0 studies to prove the caffeine and creatine theory. You also stated earlier most people run serms too high yet you suggest 120mg /day. This is your theory only and wether you're serious or not I don't know. Regardless I'm pretty sure the truth will come out pretty soon cause you told everyone how to do it. If you're serious good luck to you and I really mean that. If youre a scam (that know what you're saying is just a lie) well I really don't care cause I'm not gonna spend money on you since you already told me how to run it.
 
I never said I would run it indefinitely. Was just butting in cause of your claim of severe liver damage. I don't run orals longer than 4-8 weeks based off of the compound and what my goal is....And your claim that coffee is bad.

Lol I love coffee, even if it was bad ((and this week apparently it is) I drink my 6 cups a day. I just don’t want some 18 year old stumbling upon this thread and getting the wrong idea. I also love Anavar by the way, in moderation as well.
 
Guys wether var is damaging to the liver or not we clearly don't really know. There are apparently studies saying both. Let's keep it civil, we don't need to have a bully mentality when speaking. I believe it is liver toxic to some degree but I could be wrong. Best thing is to go to a doctor and see for yourselves
 
The major food sources of acrylamide are French fries and potato chips; crackers, bread, and cookies; breakfast cereals; canned black olives; prune juice; and coffee.

Trace amounts.
Driving to work with your windows down exposes you to far worse.

We healthier people consume antioxidants, and other nice things to help us fight off those free radicals that cause cancer.
The sky is not falling. It fell a long time ago.
 
The major food sources of acrylamide are French fries and potato chips; crackers, bread, and cookies; breakfast cereals; canned black olives; prune juice; and coffee.

Trace amounts.
Driving to work with your windows down exposes you to far worse.

We healthier people consume antioxidants, and other nice things to help us fight off those free radicals that cause cancer.
The sky is not falling. It fell a long time ago.
Hey I hate the A/C.....I always drive with my windows down. Lol
 
Don't make me break out my PhD in Coffee. I will.
You read that right, I get a capital D.
 
I am not responding to your posts that post is directed at the OP. Are you the OP of the thread? Or just a jackass who thinks his textbook makes him immune to stupidity?

The moral of the story is, certain oral AAS are safe for use beyond 6 weeks for MOST with no pre existing conditions.

I'm not saying everyone can run DBOL for 12 weeks, but I'm saying most can. On PM I started a similar thread and generally people have ran orals, up to 300mg/day (with support supps) for 3-4 months with no liver problems. To put a generalized 6 week cap on oral AAS usage means you are just buying into forum propaganda. Listen to your body, pick a relatively safe oral, preferably not a designer, particularly tbol, dbol, var even winstrol, at a sensible dosage and listen to your body for signs of toxicity.

A combo of test and tren at moderate to high dosages and for 3-4 months is commonly recommended and it will shorten your lifespan much quicker than taking tbol for the same period of time, guaranteed or your money back.
 
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