justhere4comm
Banned
Coconut water if you can in the cooler my man. Helps you fight dehydration. ^
Liver damage from oral AAS greatly exggerated
- Thread starter RickyBlobby
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Renew1
Legend
Thanks bro. I'll definitely try it!
Chados
Well-known member
Funny thing is that coffee dehydrates you compared to water but if I remember correctly about 80% of that cup will be water to your body.
justhere4comm
Banned
Right on! It has the perfect salinization for your body.
Spurfy
Active member
I've read that study but I disagree somewhat on the authors' conclusion.
Chados
Well-known member
Double checked and one study said the difference weren't noticible compared to water. Well either way maybe the yellow urin is just coffee and not dehydration
Renew1
Legend
Why?
justhere4comm
Banned
Oh, they aren't much different with regard to hydration, but that's only one part of this. We are dealing with stressed muscles at work, not on a treadmill, and also dealing with more than a 2% decrease in hydration. He's actually working, just like anyone in a gym lifting on a circuit.
On scale of the entire picture of not only rehydration which is equivalent to that of sports drinks, but also healthier overall. The potassium and other constituents are great. I might add, eating a banana as well. Your muscles will thank you, and it would go future to hindering any cramping.
The study I read was not quite conclusive, but I love coconut water, and powder. It's a great addition to my pre / intra / and protein drinks. I'd say overall it gives you more than the alternative salt / sugary sports drinks.
Spurfy
Active member
Because they don't explain how the increased excretion they observed is due to better absorption, instead of merely the effect of caffeine in stimulating renal excretion of oxandrolone.
Oxandrolone is 97% orally bioavailable anyway... It's not like it needs any help getting through the GI tract.
Renew1
Legend
I noticed that myself, but I thought I was just missing something.
Spurfy
Active member
It's a study that ultimately demonstrates almost nothing.
Chados
Well-known member
Yeah true, I personally don't have joint problems except in my fingers one time I used winstrol. I try to stay away from a lot of things nowadays cause I feel I can get similar results with other things. Water is definitely better than coffee but it's just such a misconception how much it actually dehydrate you. I drink coconut milk and almond milk often and I assume coconut milk and water are quite similar?
Renew1
Legend
I can't speak for other people, but I can most definitely tell you that if I'm not careful, caffeine can really dehydrate me, if I'm in a dehydrating situation already
Chados
Well-known member
No I feel the same. But I think what you feel is mostly sickness not dehydration if that makes sense. A lot of caffeine can really upset your stomach giving you diarrea which basically means you'll get dehydrated. I think even a 1-2% dehydration compared to water could be a lot consider in our body is pretty much only water. I think the recommend water intake for the average man is about 2-2,5 L (about half a gallon) and most people don't drink that much. Now adding coffee, aas , training, hot temperature depending on where you live will obviously make a huge difference. So yes it's very individual.
Renew1
Legend
I'm located in SOUTH Florida, so it's something I have experience with on a much more regular basis than I'd like. You're right, caffeine is highly acidic, and can cause stomach discomfort and distress. I wish that was what I had to focus on for 9 months of the year, but it's the dehydration. 1 gallon a day is a MUST, no matter the conditions. 1 1/2 gallons on a long work day isn't unusual for me. It would help if I didn't naturally sweat a lot anyway, but I always have.
Chados
Well-known member
You son of a gun. I used to live in Louisiana cause my former girlfriend was American, used to go to Destin in Florida and I love that place haha. Yeah temperatures can be quite high over there and water becomes addictive almost.
2kvette
Active member
Precisely; aside from the unchanged drug
Being 1/3 i can’t seem to find much pharmacokinetics either. What I’m kooking for is specific metabolites defected. So if you find it let me know!
2kvette
Active member
Just saw this, think I can explain a possible explanation. You have this thing called residence time for renally excreted drugs. After it’s secreted into the urine before it’s actually urinated out you can decrease the time a drug resides in the filtrate by administering diuretics, pH adjusting agents to keep it from being reabsorbed back into the blood from the urine. Also, there are two specific transporters that may be blocked by the caffeine as well.
Spurfy
Active member
If oxandrolone is involved in AR/GR-crosstalk, as we all know it is, I would also suggest a possible glucocorticoid receptor-mediated effect in renal tubular reabsorption that is enhanced in the presence of caffeine.
Oxandrolone acts both as a downstream agonist *and* antagonist of GR, depending on the specific target tissue or organ.
2kvette
Active member
I have to present a poster on this very topic tomorrow. Well, actually it's an unexpected secondary anti-inflammatory outcome.
Spurfy
Active member
This is very interesting with OX. There's definitely some push-pull going on with it regarding GR-activity.
From my own experiences, I seem to get a pretty profound anti-inflammatory effect in skeletal muscle tissue and especially joints, and a reduced "sickness response" to a pathogenic challenge (when I get sick on OX it's much less obnoxious), but I paradoxically develop mild peridontitis over the course of a week or so anytime my dose of OX exceeds 30 mg/day.
solidsnake
Well-known member
Going back a bit, what doses of creatine and caffeine would you take for say 50mg var and how long before bedtime?
Spurfy
Active member
I'd run 30 grams/day of creatine in coffee with breakfast, then Var at 6:00 PM.
Nac
Well-known member
If we look purely at the pharmacology, there should be little practical diff between oral ox vs IM?
2kvette
Active member
I get this from several compounds. AR agonists with an altered nucleus decrease the innate immune response but increase the humoral response. Estrogens do the opposite from what I've read.
MrKleen73
Legend
Yes I mentioned that above, that I did find where he said it was stronger than even Tren. I mentioned before I am not sure about that, they look pretty even on paper. I would have to see someone really try and take Var to the limit with gains to chime in further. When it comes to tren, I can only speak to my experience though and have only run tren very low dose for the androgenic affects to CNS and not for size gains. At the peak of my run I think I was at 250mg for the week. I get way too many sides to run tren at higher doses. Again, why I said Var is my personal favorite, I can grow really well, the gains are dry, and the side effects are truly minimal.
I can agree with a lot of what he has said even though I am not sure how this particular competition between the 2 would play out. I would love to see someone run an 8-12 week run of both at same doses and see, but even then that wouldn't work... You are obviously going to gain more on whatever one was cycled first.
Either way you wont find me saying that it is stronger than Tren, on paper it says it can be... I don't have the experience of trying to use Tren for a physique based goal. I used it to amp up the CNS going into a PL meet.
However in my opinion when all things are considered, if they are even close in effects, I would definitely rather run a high dose of Var than Tren. Just due to the sides alone. I am also not a hard core guy when it comes to compound use. I had a period where I was starting to get sucked into that mentality but one crappy cycle of SD fixed that for me. I am kind of a side effect magnet so certain things are just not for me.
The one thing I can say for sure is that Var is definitely underestimated when it comes to how much lean mass can be added with it. When you bump up the dose, and give it a surplus the gains just come on...
There have also been some studies showing the effects are minor, and often the diuretic effects wain is your body gets used to metabolizing the caffiene. Here is a study where they found that although it had a minor diuretic effect that it did not cause dehydration.
Invalid Link Removed
If I remember correctly isn't it more the potassium in coconut water that is supposed to be helping and not sodium. I could be way off here. That was my impression but I haven't really looked into it that much. Studies that show improved hydration do not always check for electrolyte levels and optimal electrolyte levels and balance are as important as hydration levels if not more so.
I think one of the benefits there is that the electrolytes in it are in a natural form and not fortified via an otherwise modified form of electrolyte.
Spurfy Very interesting.
Let me ask you since Var is metabolized in the kidneys, how hard on the kidneys is it to metabolize or is it not a major source of stress to the kidneys?
210LBS
Well-known member
Does cycle length play a role here? If I ran anadrol for 6 weeks @ 50mgs and anavar @ 50mgs for 4 weeks, would anavar yield the greater muscle gains? Or if I ran only 4 weeks of anavar @ 50mgs vs 4 weeks of bolasterone @ 50mgs, anavar still comes out on top? Or what if it's only 2 weeks of SD @ 20mgs vs 2 weeks of anavar @ 20mgs? Under what conditions is anavar the most anabolic steroid mg for mg?
solidsnake
Well-known member
Hey spurfy have you checked your pm’s dude?
Spurfy
Active member
It's easy on the kidneys and produces no known toxicity. It's contraindicated in persons with renal failure only because the kidneys are needed to metabolize and excrete OX.
This drug is so safe, they literally give it to children, alcoholics with cirrhosis, and cancer/AIDS patients who are already on a cocktail of extremely toxic drugs, with literally ZERO safety concerns.
Var will be "discovered" by the AAS community at some point, it just requires a little manipulation of your normal routine to really get it to shine. Once daily dosing, bumping up creatine, etc.
When people realize that they can get the strength and muscle building effects of tren without the sides, and without pinning, Var will take-off. As an aside, the strength gains from OX are unique in that there's very little additional neuromuscular (the "androgenic strength") effect involved -- it's almost entirely based on the fact that OX can really push ATP synthesis and regeneration, and that's why big doses of creatine work so well with it. Var gainzzzz also "stick" better than any other AAS, because of the growth of new myocytes which occurs when "on."
Chados
Well-known member
You have to look at androgenic and anabolic. Anadrol is stronger same with sd. I've used them all and it's like asking me if a ferarri beats a Volvo in speed. If I drive them both my answer will be depending on my experience with both. Try them for yourself and then you'll have your opinion. I just find it a bit silly to say it maybe I'm wrong when my cycle tells a completly different story. And strength as in lifting heavy... Forget about it, not even close
Chados
Well-known member
But even if this is true, isn't that saying I need something more than var to make it potent?
Spurfy
Active member
No. With caffeine and creatine all you're doing is dropping in a bigger turbo, a bigger intercooler, and a downpipe into a F80 M3.
An F80 M3 certainly needs no help or anything extra, but if you want to extract every last bit of potential, there are things you can do.
210LBS
Well-known member
But anadrol and SD are not very androgenic. They are both far more anabolic than androgenic.
Spurfy
Active member
Permanent strength gains, not temporary strength gains that reduce when you come off.
The initial boost in strength from traditional AAS comes as a direct result of their androgenic effect on the mind-muscle connection -- this neuro-muscular effect disappears after the drug is stopped.
Var has a bit of a lag in strength gains as compared to traditional AAS because the strength gains from Var are two-fold: Increased ATP synthesis/storage (immediate), growth of new muscle cells (delayed). Even when one comes off Var and loses the benefit of the increased availability of ATP, the new muscle cells remain and strength increases stay, although time to fatigue will not be as good as when "on" because of the lowered ATP availability vs when on OX.
Look, I've been a bodybuilder/strength athlete for longer than I've been a pharmacologist, and I've been a pharmacologist for 18 years. I've done and tried just about everything. Still, I'm not telling anyone to just believe what I say -- ask me questions and I'll give you answers. I'm not, however, going to back up every single claim I make unless someone asks me to -- I don't have the time for that. I work 50+ hours a week and my time is money.
That said, I don't ever make claims I can't back up or that I won't substantiate.
Spurfy
Active member
Exactly.
Spurfy
Active member
Run it correctly and make sure it's legit and not under-dosed, and you'll be very surprised: One dose, at 6:00 PM, and make sure you're hitting your macros. Var will lower your appetite, even with night-time dosing -- the single night-time dose helps offset this effect and will greatly reduce the horrible fatigue that Var taken during the day can cause.
I recommend running it with a SERM (preferably toremifene @ 30 mg/day) to prevent any degree of shutdown. This doesn't really add anything to the muscle-building effects, but allows you the benefit of a T-base without compromising your data -- it just keeps your T in the normal range. At 80 mg/day of OX, you will be shutdown to a fairly significant degree. The good news is that recovery from OX is very very quick, even without any PCT.
Cgkone
Well-known member
I will experiment with high anavar dosing.
rtmilburn
Well-known member
Yes, this is true. However, tren has the benefits of increasing prostaglandins, such as pgf2a, which can be incredibly anabolic.
Spurfy
Active member
And OX significantly increases the sensitivity of somatrophs to GHRH, eliciting a sustained GH increase of up to 190%
Chados
Well-known member
Yes but again you're looking at a chart that doesn't add up because it was tested on rats or because the compound doesn't bind to your receptors properly. According to this halotestin is the most potent aas ever created by far. It has 1900 in androgenic rating compared to tren with 500 yet it doesn't add any size?
By its structural design, Halotestin carries an anabolic rating of 1,900 and an androgenic rating of 850. All ratings are measured against pure testosterone, which carries a rating of 100 in both categories. This means Halo as it’s often known carries ratings that are almost beyond reason, but its anabolic rating is tremendously deceiving. While it carries a massive anabolic rating, its anabolic translation in human beings appears to be near zero. This steroid simply doesn’t translate into any notable anabolic effect and will primarily function by androgenic activity.
Anavar is also a very popular anabolic steroid among performance enhancing athletes. By looking at its therapeutic benefits, we should already have an understanding or appreciation as to what such benefits might be. While mild on its surface, Anavar carries a massive anabolic that is 3-6 times stronger than testosterone. Anavar’s anabolic rating is 322-630, while testosterone, a powerfully anabolic hormone carries a rating of 100. This would insinuate the muscle building properties of this steroid are tremendous; however, the rating does not translate into real life action quite like you might think. For the off-season male athlete, this will not be what we’d consider a premier bulking steroid; in fact, we’d call it weak for this purpose. But, its anabolic power will translate tremendously in a cutting cycle, or for the purpose of direct athletic enhancement. We will also find that the androgenicity of this hormone is rather low, making one of the friendliest steroids for female use.
Spurfy
Active member
That's all well and good, but OX has proven itself in the medical world as an exceptionally potent anabolic and proven itself when tested against other anabolics. The reason that OX is used instead of other compounds in burn victims is because it's both unrivaled at tissue building (including collagen synthesis) AND carries essentially zero risk.
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
This x 10. I never had a better look than when I was on var. Well maybe except primo, close race
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
And ironically Arnie has emergency open heart surgery today, you’ve advocated the devil guys!! ?*.....
Yet still no liver replacement
solidsnake
Well-known member
Very true!
MrKleen73
Legend
You should quote your references when you copy and paste from other sites and articles. The above is the Anavar profile from steroid.com
Androgenic means sexual characteristics... Please stop referring to it and how it does not translate into more mass. That is because it is not supposed to... Androgenic is sexual characteristics, and also helps with CNS, and fat loss, it does not mean more growth... Will they make you stronger? Absolutely, that is what they are best at... otherwise it is a sexual characteristic measurement... IE hard on the HPTA and prostate, or not...
You keep bringing it up like it is going to suddenly stop meaning the sexual side and have to do with the anabolic effects. The anabolic part of the ratio is muscle growth... if the rating is low expect less growth. As far as it's anabolic power showing itself in a cutting cycle, not sure what that means, other than the fact many people can still grow while in a deficit using it. Further showing it's growth potential. Imagine that on a high caloric surplus...
Just mentioning cutting, Tren being higher in androgenic effects is going to actually be better for cutting, it burns fat aggressively due to the effect it has on the AR in fat cells. Then again we get back on the which one has more sides thing...
Cgkone - good deal on deciding to run a high dose high surplus cycle to test this. Please link me up when you do it. I definitely want to watch and follow along. I think you will be pleasantly surprised with the results if you feed it like you are bulking you are going to grow a lot but still be drier and have that dense muscle look after. That is what 560mg a week so you could run it for 12 weeks and compare to what you would have gotten off of a 5-600mg test run, or even tren if you have a somewhat solo cycle of tren to compare it too. Either way, when it comes to test, other than water weight gain that will fall off post cycle I bet you grow more actual LBM on the Var cycle. Will be fun to watch either way.
If I am wrong that is cool too because then I learned something as well. Me personally I respond better to Var, and grow more with it on a mg per mg basis while keeping a cleaner look and benefiting my joints and connective tissue.
Renew1
Legend
Var is one of my favorites (I have some now).
The (Anabolic) ratings given to steroids don't always match reality, though. Like what was said above, the Anabolic rating of Halotestin doesn't match real world results AT ALL (although it's Androgenic rating does).