25% Dose of HMB May Be 60% more effective per mg than Leucine

[EricMM]

This study is using muscle wasting, which isn't exactly apples to apples but it shows that over 4 days HMB at 25% of the dose of Leucine was more effective than Leucine by 60%. So, maybe it's time to look back at HMB as a potential recovery agent.


Nutrition. 2014 Jul-Aug;30(7-8):807-13. doi: 10.1016/j.nut.2013.11.012. Epub 2013 Dec 4.
Comparison of the anticatabolic effects of leucine and Ca-β-hydroxy-β-methylbutyrate in experimental models of cancer cachexia.

Mirza KA1, Pereira SL2, Voss AC2, Tisdale MJ3.
Author information
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
Loss of skeletal muscle is the most debilitating feature of cancer cachexia, and there are few treatments available. The aim of this study was to compare the anticatabolic efficacy of L-leucine and the leucine metabolite β-hydroxy-β-methylbutyrate (Ca-HMB) on muscle protein metabolism, both in vitro and in vivo.
METHODS:
Studies were conducted in mice bearing the cachexia-inducing murine adenocarcinoma 16 tumor, and in murine C2 C12 myotubes exposed to proteolysis-inducing factor, lipopolysaccharide, and angiotensin II.
RESULTS:
Both leucine and HMB were found to attenuate the increase in protein degradation and the decrease in protein synthesis in murine myotubes induced by proteolysis-inducing factor, lipopolysaccharide, and angiotensin II. However, HMB was more potent than leucine, because HMB at 50 μM produced essentially the same effect as leucine at 1 mM. Both leucine and HMB reduced the activity of the ubiquitin-proteasome pathway as measured by the functional (chymotrypsin-like) enzyme activity of the proteasome in muscle lysates, as well as Western blot quantitation of protein levels of the structural/enzymatic proteasome subunits (20 S and 19 S) and the ubiquitin ligases (MuRF1 and MAFbx). In vivo studies in mice bearing the murine adenocarcinoma 16 tumor showed a low dose of Ca-HMB (0.25 g/kg) to be 60% more effective than leucine (1 g/kg) in attenuating loss of body weight over a 4-d period.
CONCLUSION:
These results favor the clinical feasibility of using Ca-HMB over high doses of leucine for the treatment of cancer cachexia.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Suppversity has 4 or 5 positive outcome studies in athletes (including weightlifters) for HMB-Ca. No need for mice or test tubes, and the stuff if $55 a kilo - just take it

 

[EricMM]

That's great but I have not ever found a direct comparison like this, but I will look at his articles! Good stuff HMB, blocks myostatin and increases anabolism and decreases catabolism.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

That's great but I have not ever found a direct comparison like this, but I will look at his articles! Good stuff HMB, blocks myostatin and increases anabolism and decreases catabolism.

They’re good at different things really. HMB is superior as an anti-catabolic, but inferior at stimulating MPS and whatnot relative to leucine. There is a place for both though. Getting sufficient leucine content is important for muscle growth, and even if HMB is superior in therms of being anti-catabolic, it won’t replace leucine in terms of building muscle. That said, if you are overreaching, the anti-catabolic properties of HMB can provide some nice benefits, even in addition to leucine IMO. HMB also has some promising research as being a generally healthy thing to take to maintain muscle and even cognitive function as we age.

 

[EricMM]

They’re good at different things really. HMB is superior as an anti-catabolic, but inferior at stimulating MPS and whatnot relative to leucine. There is a place for both though. Getting sufficient leucine content is important for muscle growth, and even if HMB is superior in therms of being anti-catabolic, it won’t replace leucine in terms of building muscle. That said, if you are overreaching, the anti-catabolic properties of HMB can provide some nice benefits, even in addition to leucine IMO. HMB also has some promising research as being a generally healthy thing to take to maintain muscle and even cognitive function as we age.

I truly think many people chronically over train. It's something I notice pretty much everywhere. The typical answer for most is AAS but I think with things like HMB, we can augment AAS and other performance enhancing supplements.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

I don't worry about Leucine since I'm not a Vegan. Whey, Casein, Chicken, Eggs, Beef, Fish at about 2g/kg is enough Leucine for me - especially with IF and eating only 2-3 big meals. 10g of Leucine isn't better than 5g and I definitely get 5g each feeding, from my food/cow powder. I've experimented with adding free form L-Leucine and all it was, was a waste of $. HMB-Ca at ~$55 per year - isn't, to me

Here's the one on elite canoeists that also lifted weights:

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And everything HMB on the site:

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[muscleupcrohn]

I truly think many people chronically over train. It's something I notice pretty much everywhere. The typical answer for most is AAS but I think with things like HMB, we can augment AAS and other performance enhancing supplements.

I think that a lot of people “overtraining” is more accurately under-eating and/or under-recovering. The big HMB study training protocol, and what I tried myself using HMB, was realistically overreaching to the point where no amount of food and sleep would make it not overreaching. I do think that it’s cheap enough to justify as a year-round staple even if you don’t plan on “overreaching” though.

 

[HIT4ME]

I think that a lot of people “overtraining” is more accurately under-eating and/or under-recovering. The big HMB study training protocol, and what I tried myself using HMB, was realistically overreaching to the point where no amount of food and sleep would make it not overreaching. I do think that it’s cheap enough to justify as a year-round staple even if you don’t plan on “overreaching” though.

I disagree. One you have reached a point of not "under" eating, eating more will do nothing to combat stress. If this was the case, you could go run a marathon FOREVER, as long as you just kept downing nutrients as you ran. Yes, if you're under-eating, then your recovery will be greatly impacted. But if you're eating sufficiently, over-training will still be a problem because you can only utilize nutrients so fast. Eating more will just make you fat and over trained. This isn't directed against you, but this is dogma that 95% of the people on this board will defend tooth and nail and it's not even logical, never mind being scientific - and I've singled you out for this because you are one of the smartest people on this board and I know you can defend yourself and not get upset; I want to be clear that I respect your knowledge and opinion. I just disagree on this point...

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I disagree. One you have reached a point of not "under" eating, eating more will do nothing to combat stress. If this was the case, you could go run a marathon FOREVER, as long as you just kept downing nutrients as you ran. Yes, if you're under-eating, then your recovery will be greatly impacted. But if you're eating sufficiently, over-training will still be a problem because you can only utilize nutrients so fast. Eating more will just make you fat and over trained. This isn't directed against you, but this is dogma that 95% of the people on this board will defend tooth and nail and it's not even logical, never mind being scientific - and I've singled you out for this because you are one of the smartest people on this board and I know you can defend yourself and not get upset; I want to be clear that I respect your knowledge and opinion. I just disagree on this point...

I’m not saying that you can always or inherently eat more and not overreach, just that it’s a problem I see for a lot of young and/or inexperienced lifters (not eating enough then complaining of stagnating or overtraining). I do completely agree that there is a point where no additional amount of recovery or food will stave off overreaching, only that most people think it’s “easier/closer” than it really is, often because they don’t have the variables of diet and recovery dialed in.

Edit: in my last post I thought I said that the HMB-Study protocol was overreaching, beyond what any amount of food can help? Doesn’t that confirm that I do believe overreaching to be a thing?

 

[HIT4ME]

I’m not saying that you can always or inherently eat more and not overreach, just that it’s a problem I see for a lot of young and/or inexperienced lifters (not eating enough then complaining of stagnating or overtraining). I do completely agree that there is a point where no additional amount of recovery or food will stave off overreaching, only that most people think it’s “easier/closer” than it really is, often because they don’t have the variables of diet and recovery dialed in.

Yeah, that I can agree with - we're pretty much on the same page. I think you're right - most people think they are eating enough and don't realize. On the other hand, I think a lot of people do too MUCH work and don't realize. Or they don't realize how much intensity they should really be using. Perspective tricks us all.

 

[EricMM]

I’m not saying that you can always or inherently eat more and not overreach, just that it’s a problem I see for a lot of young and/or inexperienced lifters (not eating enough then complaining of stagnating or overtraining). I do completely agree that there is a point where no additional amount of recovery or food will stave off overreaching, only that most people think it’s “easier/closer” than it really is, often because they don’t have the variables of diet and recovery dialed in.

Edit: in my last post I thought I said that the HMB-Study protocol was overreaching, beyond what any amount of food can help? Doesn’t that confirm that I do believe overreaching to be a thing?

Great post. Catabolism is something we all need to understand. It's by far more important than anabolism IMHO. The body doesn't like all that muscle just look at old pro's and how they look. Anyone seen Dorian Yates recently?

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Great post. Catabolism is something we all need to understand. It's by far more important than anabolism IMHO. The body doesn't like all that muscle just look at old pro's and how they look. Anyone seen Dorian Yates recently?

Haha. Robby Robinson looks insane, and Zane still looks good too, and they’re well over a decade older than Yates, but they were never his size, comparing prime to prime. Aging well is an art haha.