HOW SOON CAN YOU CYCLE AGAIN

[FRITZBLITZ]

We all know on a typical cycle time on+PCT=time off. What I'm wondering is how SOON can you cycle if your using a TRT dose to bridge between cycles? I have heard of BB staying on gear for most of the time and almost always having some small amount of something. I'm not a BB but I had a less than text book Recomp, left me with 13lbs that I can't drop while PCTing. I have to eat too much to maintain what I gained.

I was on a 4 month cycle of Test C 300mg/ EQ 450mg/ Deca 450mg and I want to bridge with a TRT dose of Test for 2 months and go into my already planned heavier but chemically leaner cycle. I mainly want to avoid perma-shutdown, or wasting gear due to desensitizing of the androgen receptor. I have heard both sides of the desensitized androgen receptor but it makes sense to me that it does get desensitized, to what extent I don't know.

 

[CatSnake]

I don't think the AR really gets desensitized like that.... from what I understand, we are constantly adding news ones, much like other cells in the body. typically, higher androgen levels will also cause an increase in AR's, as well. you could also take l-carnatine l-tartrate prior to your next blast, as it can increase AR's.

if you're on TRT, then your concerns about "perma-shutdown" are confusing.....

 

[Nac]

AR desensitization?

Science is constantly proving intuition wrong ("but guize I could swear the earth is flat and the centre of te universe...its so obvious!")

If desensitization occurs, like actually really and non-trivially, lets see the science that it does.

If anything anti-gainish occurs, its gonna be via other mechanisms, not AR desensitization (or at least, the evidence Ive seen indicates this).

 

[jakz]

^^ Like they said. The cruising period is more for health reasons.

 

[CatSnake]

AR desensitization?

Science is constantly proving intuition wrong ("but guize I could swear the earth is flat and the centre of te universe...its so obvious!")

If desensitization occurs, like actually really and non-trivially, lets see the science that it does.

If anything anti-gainish occurs, its gonna be via other mechanisms, not AR desensitization (or at least, the evidence Ive seen indicates this).

I've seen articles that indicate that myostatin increase after 8 weeks or so on cycle.

 

[FRITZBLITZ]

I don't think the AR really gets desensitized like that.... from what I understand, we are constantly adding news ones, much like other cells in the body. typically, higher androgen levels will also cause an increase in AR's, as well. you could also take l-carnatine l-tartrate prior to your next blast, as it can increase AR's.

if you're on TRT, then your concerns about "perma-shutdown" are confusing.....

So I'm prescribed TRT but my balls still produce 680ng/dl. I just like the freedom of being prescribed gear for travel and cops and free gear. Plus I know I'll end up on it anyways eventually.

^^ Like they said. The cruising period is more for health reasons.

So if BP, Lipids, liver ect checks out I could take a short cruise and then jump into a 5 month cycle? I ask this because all systems are a go already but what I want to run next is a hard hitter.

 

[Nac]

IMO, the cruise period shouldnt be limited to just getting your health markers in order, but staying that way "for a period of time".

The idea being, you ideally want to be spending at least as much time not causing arterial damage, as you do potentially adding to it (as you typically do on blast).

 

[Toren]

IMO, the cruise period shouldnt be limited to just getting your health markers in order, but staying that way "for a period of time".

The idea being, you ideally want to be spending at least as much time not causing arterial damage, as you do potentially adding to it (as you typically do on blast).

Yes indeed.

 

[jakz]

Like Nac said. It's not about being in that "healthy" state for a day or week, but for an extended period.

 

[FRITZBLITZ]

IMO, the cruise period shouldnt be limited to just getting your health markers in order, but staying that way "for a period of time".

The idea being, you ideally want to be spending at least as much time not causing arterial damage, as you do potentially adding to it (as you typically do on blast).

That totally makes sense. I had regular doc checks and only had a week where my BP was high norm. I take omega3 and garlic year round. But I'm no spring chicken at 33. I would like to take a 2 month cruise in which i'll have a doc appt each month to get vitals and 1 BW. If everything stays good do you think that's enough time for a hard 5 month blast?

 

[Nac]

I dunno man its your call. If it were me Id be basing decisions like that on a whole host of factors. Like, weighing up what Im trying to achieve short term and long term, and how much risk Im prepared to take to accomplish my goals.

I might be prepared to compromise and cut some corners now (and do a shorter cruise) IF I was also prepared to commit to a much longer health-orientated period after the hardcore blast.

So, it depends.

 

[FRITZBLITZ]

I dunno man its your call. If it were me Id be basing decisions like that on a whole host of factors. Like, weighing up what Im trying to achieve short term and long term, and how much risk Im prepared to take to accomplish my goals.

I might be prepared to compromise and cut some corners now (and do a shorter cruise) IF I was also prepared to commit to a much longer health-orientated period after the hardcore blast.

So, it depends.

Very good points. I was already planning a "cleanse" and 'recleanse" after the blast because of the harshness of the cycle. That was before I was going to speed up my timeline. My main concern is extended time of low HDL. My liver is very clean and strong, kidneys got a ultrasound and are perfect, Heart has been EKGed and is strong and I can battle High cholesteral easily. But I will have to think how long it will take to recuperate after 5 months hard time.

 

[FRITZBLITZ]

I dunno man its your call. If it were me Id be basing decisions like that on a whole host of factors. Like, weighing up what Im trying to achieve short term and long term, and how much risk Im prepared to take to accomplish my goals.

I might be prepared to compromise and cut some corners now (and do a shorter cruise) IF I was also prepared to commit to a much longer health-orientated period after the hardcore blast.

So, it depends.

I hear all your points and just want your oppinion when you see me intended December or March cycle

Deca 550 week 1-12 /450/350/250 total 16 weeks
Tren 300week 10 /350/450/550 week 13-22
Sust 400mg/week 1-22
EQ 650mg/week 1-21
SD kick week 1-5
Epi tail last 4 weeks [maybe winny]

My goal is to hit 285 cut not shredded

 

[Nac]

Yeah thats a pretty aggressive blast. Lipids and hcrit aside, my main concern would be arterial inflammation. Both during and after.

Secondary concern would be how to balance keeping all those gainz with improving then maintaining arterial health. Whats your cruise plans atm for after that blast?

 

[FRITZBLITZ]

Yeah thats a pretty aggressive blast. Lipids and hcrit aside, my main concern would be arterial inflammation. Both during and after.

Secondary concern would be how to balance keeping all those gainz with improving then maintaining arterial health. Whats your cruise plans atm for after that blast?

I know only basics of arterial inflammation n other words I know what it is and not much else. I really don't have a good answer for keeping it under control after because I don't know much more than a few foods and meds that lower it. [ATM???]I plan to PCTand get BW. If my balls still can produce my 680ng that Ive been holding onto I will try to cruise on Mast 300mg/ Deca 50mg/ clomid 12.5 e3d, If my balls' natty T is not worth the continuous PCT I plan to cruise at Test C 250mg &Deca 50mg/week and

 

[FRITZBLITZ]

Yeah thats a pretty aggressive blast. Lipids and hcrit aside, my main concern would be arterial inflammation. Both during and after.

Secondary concern would be how to balance keeping all those gainz with improving then maintaining arterial health. Whats your cruise plans atm for after that blast?

I know there are genetic mutants out there that can hold huge with 150mg of Test and I doubt I am that guy. but at 6'4 if I lifted all natty I would plateau at 235 - 245. If all went well and I got up to 285 [with my frame it's huge but not gross] I calc that 40-45 lbs of muscle will be non genetic. Would either of my cruises be in the range of enough to hold weight? I hold gainz well until I hit a ridiculousness jump like 30lbs in 6-8 weeks.

 

[Nac]

I know only basics of arterial inflammation n other words I know what it is and not much else. I really don't have a good answer for keeping it under control after because I don't know much more than a few foods and meds that lower it. [ATM???]I plan to PCTand get BW. If my balls still can produce my 680ng that Ive been holding onto I will try to cruise on Mast 300mg/ Deca 50mg/ clomid 12.5 e3d, If my balls' natty T is not worth the continuous PCT I plan to cruise at Test C 250mg &Deca 50mg/week and

Im a bit confused...youre going to PCT and then, if your natty test is in healthy range youre going to add in mast/deca/clomid and cruise on that? If youre legit wanting to experiment by going that route, why not just skip the PCT period (of no AAS) and go straight to the cruise of mast/deca/clomid? If you LH doesnt recover then drop the clomid for the cyp. Id think recovering LH would be a more fundamental concern than also waiting to get test up. But maybe Im overlooking something.

Arterial inflammation:

Fish oil
K2 (mk4 and mk7)
D3
Naringin
Nattokinase
Chondroitin sulfate
Garlic extract

...are some of the better natty compounds. fueledpassion is knowledgable wrt appropriate meds should you wish to go that route (and with that blast, you may want to srsly consider it).

I know there are genetic mutants out there that can hold huge with 150mg of Test and I doubt I am that guy. but at 6'4 if I lifted all natty I would plateau at 235 - 245. If all went well and I got up to 285 [with my frame it's huge but not gross] I calc that 40-45 lbs of muscle will be non genetic. Would either of my cruises be in the range of enough to hold weight? I hold gainz well until I hit a ridiculousness jump like 30lbs in 6-8 weeks.

Man, I have no idea.
fueledpassion might have insight.

 

[FRITZBLITZ]

Im a bit confused...youre going to PCT and then, if your natty test is in healthy range youre going to add in mast/deca/clomid and cruise on that? If youre legit wanting to experiment by going that route, why not just skip the PCT period (of no AAS) and go straight to the cruise of mast/deca/clomid? If you LH doesnt recover then drop the clomid for the cyp. Id think recovering LH would be a more fundamental concern than also waiting to get test up. But maybe Im overlooking something.

Arterial inflammation:

Fish oil
K2 (mk4 and mk7)
D3
Naringin
Nattokinase
Chondroitin sulfate
Garlic extract

...are some of the better natty compounds. fueledpassion is knowledgable wrt appropriate meds should you wish to go that route (and with that blast, you may want to srsly consider it).



Man, I have no idea.
fueledpassion might have insight.

OK I guess you make a good point. and I forgot to add HCG. JSYK the mast deca clomid would be so that my HPTA is still working because I'm negating the suppression, while adding the mast. I thought that getting the whole HPTA working and kinda balanced would be beneficial before adding anything adding anything more but maybe I do what you suggest and in 3 months if my test and sex drive aren't back just switch to cyp

Anyone have any ideas on maintenance levels of Test or Mast? I dont know if I believe this but the big guy on EA only uses 200mg of Test

 

[fueledpassion]

SO much has been discussed that I'm trying to figure out where to start. Let me go back to the original question, which I think is this:

"What I'm wondering is how SOON can you cycle if your using a TRT dose to bridge between cycles?"

And adding to that, it seems one of your key concerns is whether or not you will hold on to whatever you gained by coming off for a period of time. The answer is different for everyone but there are things you can do to prevent actual muscle loss during this period. More on that later.

For now, let's talk about why you should have time in cruise mode. More so, lets also talk about the physiological things that demand that you take time off.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

We don't fully understand all of the things that take place in the body that makes things difficult in terms of building muscle mass indefinitely. But if I'm honest about it - we don't have to understand all of the mechanisms but only that it consistently rings true in ALL of us. It seems that having linear gains is almost impossible, if not just something we experience briefly, say 8-12 weeks at a time.

Sure, desensitization is a hypothesis as well as myostatin resistance. But there are other things too, namely, getting fat and increasing insulin resistance. These are the two main things I believe. - and not surprisingly, there is an activity that causes both of these to occur - caloric surplus. Consider your body more productive the leaner it gets and more inefficient the fatter it gets. True story, at least for myself. How do you think bodybuilders can hold on to so much mass while taking relatively low amounts of gear? Because they walk around at 5-10% BF year round!

Regardless, Ecclesiastes 3:1 tells us there is a time for everything under the sun:

"For everything there is a season,
a time for every activity under heaven"

You just can't do the same things continually forever. Creation is not designed to do so. I have no reason to believe bulking and cutting seasons are different.


So with that said, you should use "time off" as we call it to prepare for another season of productivity and the secret to this is caloric surplus followed by a caloric deficit. A toggle. Datbtrue tried time and again to teach this secret, and while he found gobs of science to corroborate his theory, nothing confirmed it better than first hand experience. It's not unlike how most of us work 5-6 days in a row and find it necessary to take some "time off" for rest and recreation. We do it with work and our training routines, so why not with the diet and gear? Makes sense to me. And yes, I know this answer is unsatisfactory for those who have to know everything using the latest and greatest biochemistry but I've got news for you: whatever you think is true today will be false tomorrow. The only thing we really have to trust here is our experiences. And it's our experiences that tell us that we better take time off if we expect to 1) stay healthy and 2) continue making progress. Understand that I'm not discounting the effort to accurately and logically understand how things work but I've seen so many instances where real life results frustrate the wise and knowledgeable and this is especially true with two different areas of study - astrophysics and biology. Let's move on...

And finally the practical stuff: I'd use my "time off" doing something like this:

1) Metformin, Berberine, Cinnamon, Chromium, Vanadyl Sulfate - any combination of these will help fix that insulin sensitivity issue

2) Blood Test to verify that my organs and blood is a-ok. This may take some checking and adjusting before you get comfortable with your results

3) Low dose of Test/Mast combo or just Test and mild amounts of Aromasin/Arimidex. Nothing crazy. Just something to keep your serum T around 1000-1200 ng/dl.

4) I'm a big believer in Somatozine now. The stuff does WONDERS for holding onto mass on a low calorie diet. This to me might be a year round staple.

5) insulin as needed to give your beta cells a break

6) something different than your previous diet. I'm assuming it was a high carb, high calorie diet. So I would transition into a lower carb, lower calorie diet and I'd go as low as I could without losing the muscle mass. Probably do it gradually.


I'd do all of these things probably for 6-8 weeks, depending on what the bloods showed. If I was in good health, maybe 6 weeks off before going at it again. If I showed some signs of concern, like really crappy HDL levels or chronically high blood pressure, I might take extra time off and do some cardio in place of weight lifting.

I also realize the chances of you doing exactly what I've spelled out here is slim to none. My general approach always requires a solid dollar and is usually exhaustive in effort to do it right. I'm never going to give a suggestion that is anything less than being exhaustively precautionary. And to be painfully honest again, I'm beginning to teach that broke people should turn away from the idea of bodybuilding and using steroids and gear to cause serious weight gain. It takes a lot of discretionary money and time to reap the benefits of this sport with minimal drawbacks and I almost feel like it is irresponsible of me to drag someone into this hobby/sport/addiction who does not have the discretionary resources to play with. I know that is not what people want to hear because it essentially suggests yet another area that outlines the haves' vs have nots', creating another perception that the wealthier folks are also destined to be the yoked folks but perhaps this can give younger people motivation to go out and make money and live well below their means so as to afford this hobby in proper fashion.

 

[fueledpassion]

I know there are genetic mutants out there that can hold huge with 150mg of Test and I doubt I am that guy. but at 6'4 if I lifted all natty I would plateau at 235 - 245. If all went well and I got up to 285 [with my frame it's huge but not gross] I calc that 40-45 lbs of muscle will be non genetic. Would either of my cruises be in the range of enough to hold weight? I hold gainz well until I hit a ridiculousness jump like 30lbs in 6-8 weeks.

A few other points that come to mind:

1) If you believe you can't be something, you won't. We already know that the placebo effect demonstrates the power of the mind. The world tells you every day that your potential and worth is determined by your actions and decisions. In a practical sense, this can have some validity. But what determines how you act/behave? The answer lies in what you think of yourself. Believe that you have Ferrari genetics and guess what? You put in the work believing you are gonna land on your goals. You'll be determined to get it done and in the process, you execute the plan perfectly because you know what the results will be. Believe you have junk yard genetics? You'll accept defeat and limit how far you can go before ever starting. This will doom you to not trying your hardest and could very well be the only reason you don't realize a certain goal, simply because you don't know that you can accomplish it.

2) If you eat enough, you'll grow. Eat just the right amount and the growth will be solid, lean mass. While more difficult for some than others, it is still true nonetheless for us all. You have to eat more than you are to grow or keep the mass. Regardless of biological responses to the lean mass growth period, this always has to be true.

 

[FRITZBLITZ]

A few other points that come to mind:

1) If you believe you can't be something, you won't. We already know that the placebo effect demonstrates the power of the mind. The world tells you every day that your potential and worth is determined by your actions and decisions. In a practical sense, this can have some validity. But what determines how you act/behave? The answer lies in what you think of yourself. Believe that you have Ferrari genetics and guess what? You put in the work believing you are gonna land on your goals. You'll be determined to get it done and in the process, you execute the plan perfectly because you know what the results will be. Believe you have junk yard genetics? You'll accept defeat and limit how far you can go before ever starting. This will doom you to not trying your hardest and could very well be the only reason you don't realize a certain goal, simply because you don't know that you can accomplish it.

2) If you eat enough, you'll grow. Eat just the right amount and the growth will be solid, lean mass. While more difficult for some than others, it is still true nonetheless for us all. You have to eat more than you are to grow or keep the mass. Regardless of biological responses to the lean mass growth period, this always has to be true.

The more I think about it, read it, discuss it, I want to do it! There are a few things I don't have answers to but will only come in time. Main 1 is how much ill have to eat to maintain 285 lol. On my messed up recomp I lost 30lbs and gained about 27 in muscle but there is about 13lbs of fat that wants to hang on. I was on a medium diet the bulk was eggs, chicken, pork loin, tuna,97% ground beef/turkey and TONS of mixed veggies. I had carbs at lunch and 2 snacks that were PB & banana sandwich w 1 pint 1%milk. I drank alot of milk and wish there wasn't much sugar in it. Feel free to make suggestions. I've always had to eat alot to keep my gains so I'm doing my best but I bet If I redid the fat test today I have gained fat.

If I took the supps that you and NAC suggested how long would you feel comfortable waiting? I had kidneys unltrasound great, liver enzymes great, lipids great, heart EKG great [faster resting pulse 75] BP great. I take garlic, fish oil, D3, Chondroiton, Chromium plus a multi on/ off cycle so I would have to add a few of the odd ones but not much change in my regular supps.

What do you think about my cycle given 6'4 265 with 15 lbs of fat just to have flat stomach not shredded. My goal is 285 cut not shredded. So assuming I will have to add 40lbs of muscle while cutting 15lbs fat.

 

[Nac]

Add some k2 at the very least bro, its practically a must with d3.

 

[FRITZBLITZ]

Nattokinase, K2, cinnamon, Metformin will be added. I'll have to look up the others. I truly believe that I can reach the 285 goal as long as I stay safe and no injuries. I have a few concerns: I hate eating budget high protein at this weight, is their an equation IE 1.5gr protein per pound? I'm fine with being on gear for the next 15 years, hell I have 20 years worth stockpiled, but I'm trying to think how hard vacations ect would be with 4-6 compounds; my medications are a pain in the ass. I'm not sure how much time away from the gym I could go without losing muscle. It's a big step from cycle-PCT-Repeat. Any thoughts

 

[fueledpassion]

I don't have to eat 2g per pound year round. I've been maintaining my muscle from contest prep gains with only 80-150g per day.

Like I said, a season for everything. It's not unheard of to do some work and coast a little bit at a time...

Trestolone is your best bet for maintaining muscle mass though. Trest/Mast/Arimidex. That's it.

Switch from Trest - Ace to Test-C or D a month out from vacation so you can build up higher levels of androgens enough to coast through 1-2 weeks without pinning. Come back home and start your Trest back up...

You don't need all that other junk. You need to consider GH/T4/Slin combo for blasting and just run Test or Trest year round.

 

[FRITZBLITZ]

I don't have to eat 2g per pound year round. I've been maintaining my muscle from contest prep gains with only 80-150g per day.

Like I said, a season for everything. It's not unheard of to do some work and coast a little bit at a time...

Trestolone is your best bet for maintaining muscle mass though. Trest/Mast/Arimidex. That's it.

Switch from Trest - Ace to Test-C or D a month out from vacation so you can build up higher levels of androgens enough to coast through 1-2 weeks without pinning. Come back home and start your Trest back up...

You don't need all that other junk. You need to consider GH/T4/Slin combo for blasting and just run Test or Trest year round.

Since you are always in game mode for BB can you tell me If you weren't a BB would you find it a pain in the ass to be on gear for min 5 years probably 15?

 

[FRITZBLITZ]

I don't have to eat 2g per pound year round. I've been maintaining my muscle from contest prep gains with only 80-150g per day.

Like I said, a season for everything. It's not unheard of to do some work and coast a little bit at a time...

Trestolone is your best bet for maintaining muscle mass though. Trest/Mast/Arimidex. That's it.

Switch from Trest - Ace to Test-C or D a month out from vacation so you can build up higher levels of androgens enough to coast through 1-2 weeks without pinning. Come back home and start your Trest back up...

You don't need all that other junk. You need to consider GH/T4/Slin combo for blasting and just run Test or Trest year round.

I can't pay for GH for more than 3 months here and there, would Somatozine [or there is another upgraded MK to soon hit] and add T4 and 70/30 or best OTC slin for long term use?

Also what do you mean by " you don't need that other stuff"?

 

[fueledpassion]

I can't pay for GH for more than 3 months here and there, would Somatozine [or there is another upgraded MK to soon hit] and add T4 and 70/30 or best OTC slin for long term use?

Also what do you mean by " you don't need that other stuff"?

By junk, I mean you don't need tons of other steroids at the same time. Sure, a hodgepodge of them works well but its expensive and requires alot more prep work to take and generally ends up requiring more mg/wk, more shots, more ancillaries, etc. That's what I meant by junk. A good no drama anabolic, a good estrogen mediator, and the rest is GH/Slin/T4. For instance, I'd do this for bulking:

Test-C @ 400mg/wk
Test-P @ 350mg/wk
Arimidex @ .5mg ED
Somatozine @ 25mg/day
rHGH @ 2iu per day, post workout
Novolin-R @ 1iu per 20g carbs every meal
Lantus @ 5iu X 2 per day
T4 @ 200mcg per day

------------------------------

When cutting, only things that would change is go from Test to Primo or Test/Tren combo and obviously, drop the Lantus, lower the frequency of Novolin-R as needed, take the GH out but leave the Somatozine in and add in the ECA stack or something similar and T4 would become T3 @ 25-50mcg/day.

Titrate carbs down while cutting. Titrate carbs up while bulking. Either way, protein should stay as high as humanly possible. I routinely took in 325-400g of protein per day at 160lbs. You can do it.

Anyways, I shouldn't spell so much out so publicly. This is good stuff that most (including myself) pay good money to know. You don't need crazy doses of GH and you don't need any more than 500-750mg of androgens at any one time to bulk or cut with if your water and protein intake is on point.

 

[fueledpassion]

If you opted out of GH/Lantus, you could also just do Somatozine and Novolin-R and that'd work pretty well too, although I think having T4 may also still be helpful.

 

[CatSnake]

By junk, I mean you don't need tons of other steroids at the same time. Sure, a hodgepodge of them works well but its expensive and requires alot more prep work to take and generally ends up requiring more mg/wk, more shots, more ancillaries, etc. That's what I meant by junk. A good no drama anabolic, a good estrogen mediator, and the rest is GH/Slin/T4. For instance, I'd do this for bulking:

Test-C @ 400mg/wk
Test-P @ 350mg/wk
Arimidex @ .5mg ED
Somatozine @ 25mg/day
rHGH @ 2iu per day, post workout
Novolin-R @ 1iu per 20g carbs every meal
Lantus @ 5iu X 2 per day
T4 @ 200mcg per day

------------------------------

When cutting, only things that would change is go from Test to Primo or Test/Tren combo and obviously, drop the Lantus, lower the frequency of Novolin-R as needed, take the GH out but leave the Somatozine in and add in the ECA stack or something similar and T4 would become T3 @ 25-50mcg/day.

Titrate carbs down while cutting. Titrate carbs up while bulking. Either way, protein should stay as high as humanly possible. I routinely took in 325-400g of protein per day at 160lbs. You can do it.

Anyways, I shouldn't spell so much out so publicly. This is good stuff that most (including myself) pay good money to know. You don't need crazy doses of GH and you don't need any more than 500-750mg of androgens at any one time to bulk or cut with if your water and protein intake is on point.

why do you take hgh post workout?

 

[fueledpassion]

why do you take hgh post workout?

Cause legit HGH makes me very lethargic after I take it and eat. I can't stay awake at all on it if I take more than 1iu during the daytime hours.

You could do it pre-WO. I should disclose that I have many time and it generally seems to help with pumps and stamina when I do. The dose timing could be played with. The point is that you only need about 2iu per day with the Somatozine to see very solid gains.

 

[FRITZBLITZ]

By junk, I mean you don't need tons of other steroids at the same time. Sure, a hodgepodge of them works well but its expensive and requires alot more prep work to take and generally ends up requiring more mg/wk, more shots, more ancillaries, etc. That's what I meant by junk. A good no drama anabolic, a good estrogen mediator, and the rest is GH/Slin/T4. For instance, I'd do this for bulking:

Test-C @ 400mg/wk
Test-P @ 350mg/wk
Arimidex @ .5mg ED
Somatozine @ 25mg/day
rHGH @ 2iu per day, post workout
Novolin-R @ 1iu per 20g carbs every meal
Lantus @ 5iu X 2 per day
T4 @ 200mcg per day

------------------------------

When cutting, only things that would change is go from Test to Primo or Test/Tren combo and obviously, drop the Lantus, lower the frequency of Novolin-R as needed, take the GH out but leave the Somatozine in and add in the ECA stack or something similar and T4 would become T3 @ 25-50mcg/day.

Titrate carbs down while cutting. Titrate carbs up while bulking. Either way, protein should stay as high as humanly possible. I routinely took in 325-400g of protein per day at 160lbs. You can do it.

Anyways, I shouldn't spell so much out so publicly. This is good stuff that most (including myself) pay good money to know. You don't need crazy doses of GH and you don't need any more than 500-750mg of androgens at any one time to bulk or cut with if your water and protein intake is on point.

I agree about the MG of androgens too a point. That is why I'm transitioning from deca to tren at half point. I would just do tren but the aggro makes my like and relationships helllll. The other point is diff things work better for dff ppl IE. My first cycle was sust 250 and EQ 300 for 3 months and that changed me for life. I also love Deca and EQ. I'm adding them in in medium doses because you get into the 1+1=3 complimentary compounds.

I broke it down to include your suggestions with mods for life style and money and I trimmed the mgs a bit and separated the catagories as for further streaml lining.

BASE
Sust 400mg/week 1-22
EQ 650mg/week 1-21
BULK
Deca 500 week 1-12 /400/300/200 total 16 weeks
Tren 250 week 10 /250/350/450 week 13-22
EXTRA POWER
SD kick week 1-5 I love SD and I make insane gains quickly but mainly the feeling of being a machine is great
Epi tail last 4 weeks [maybe winny] I may probably will need an additional cutter to lose every % cuz PC I gain weight.
ALL YEAR W/ BREAKS
Somatozine 25mg/ GH 2iu
Novolin-R 1-3 iu per large meal
T4 200mcg e2d

Proper ancillaries and estro control

 

[Nac]

I cant remember, have you tried and liked npp? Like, 500mg pw?

 

[FRITZBLITZ]

I cant remember, have you tried and liked npp? Like, 500mg pw?

I have tried and liked the fast effect but pin e2d was hard...I missed days and double the next. It wasn't the pinning compared to always having gear on me. I travel for work, I am not always home till after gym.

 

[Nac]

Ah, yeah fair enougb.

 

[FRITZBLITZ]

Ah, yeah fair enougb.

What do you think Nac. Is it a reasonably extreme cycle? balanced with off cycle compounds?, and of course all the health prevention ancilliaries?
Would you add anything? [I dont' want to be 285 rock hard homeless lol] would you trim anything?

 

[fueledpassion]

I should say that total weight mass does play into proper dosing like it would for anything else. A 250lbs man might need 1-1.2G per week to experience what I'd get at 600-800mg/wk...

But genetics also play into this quite a bit as well.

 

[FRITZBLITZ]

I should say that total weight mass does play into proper dosing like it would for anything else. A 250lbs man might need 1-1.2G per week to experience what I'd get at 600-800mg/wk...

But genetics also play into this quite a bit as well.

Genetics of course. I'm blessed and cursed I gain muscle easily but in certain areas in order; traps, chest, thighs, back, and I cant get my forearms or calves to grow if I injected them every day lol. Other than EQ being far more effective at 600mg+ I'm running about 1 gr which is still more than I usually do but I prefer longer cycle with lower doses.

I'm currently on a version of MK like Somatozine. Been on it for 3 months and other than the GH signals, tingly hands ect. I have yet to see anything impressive. what sold you and many others on AM on Somatozine?

 

[Nac]

What do you think Nac. Is it a reasonably extreme cycle? balanced with off cycle compounds?, and of course all the health prevention ancilliaries?
Would you add anything? [I dont' want to be 285 rock hard homeless lol] would you trim anything?

but I prefer longer cycle with lower doses.

You obviously have your preferences, any changes Id suggest would be due to a different philosophical approach to this sh1t. So in essence I cant be of much help there.

 

[FRITZBLITZ]

You obviously have your preferences, any changes Id suggest would be due to a different philosophical approach to this sh1t. So in essence I cant be of much help there.

Well diff ppl respond better to diff approach. most of my cycles were 12-14 months but that was when I believed that I recovered 100% after a cycle. I got fond of 700mg 4-5 month cycles with proper time off when I read more about some of the great BB of late 80's and 90's and their approach. But since I;m not nearly a pro I just do half the MGs.

What would you change if you NEEDED to gain 35-40 lbs and cut 20 fat in less than 5 months? I ask because I'm not cocky enough to think I can't use as much info as possible in order to be successful with a pretty harsh cycle.

 

[Nac]

My approach is along the lines of what fueledpassion was suggesting: microcycles of cut-bulk-maintain. Im liking 8 weeks on each phase, but theres certainly flexibility to extend or shorten.

If I was given your parameters, Id cut/prime for 6-8 weeks, then bulk for 8, then recomp/maintain. Id maybe cut with EQ(no test) tren mast, then bulk with test deca EQ (front load deca).

But again, Im enjoying this approach. I get bored with loooong blasts and bulks.

 

[FRITZBLITZ]

My approach is along the lines of what fueledpassion was suggesting: microcycles of cut-bulk-maintain. Im liking 8 weeks on each phase, but theres certainly flexibility to extend or shorten.

If I was given your parameters, Id cut/prime for 6-8 weeks, then bulk for 8, then recomp/maintain. Id maybe cut with EQ(no test) tren mast, then bulk with test deca EQ (front load deca).

But again, Im enjoying this approach. I get bored with loooong blasts and bulks.

I find it easier to mold your physique on a longer cycle introducing, reducing, or increasing compounds for effect. Then maintain that end result through diet and discipline.

this this is always involving and I was wondering what the upside of short burst cycles is.

 

[Nac]

I find it easier to mold your physique on a longer cycle introducing, reducing, or increasing compounds for effect. Then maintain that end result through diet and discipline.

this this is always involving and I was wondering what the upside of short burst cycles is.

The main benefits for me are psychological, which then manifests as progress under the bar and in the mirror.

If theres any strong science other than the usual "gainz dwindle after 10 or so weeks cos of limiting factors blah blah" then Im not aware of it and Id only consider bonus to my earlier reasons. I certainly dont think Im losing out on gainz doing shorter micro-cyclez...at least not longterm.

 

[fueledpassion]

Genetics of course. I'm blessed and cursed I gain muscle easily but in certain areas in order; traps, chest, thighs, back, and I cant get my forearms or calves to grow if I injected them every day lol. Other than EQ being far more effective at 600mg+ I'm running about 1 gr which is still more than I usually do but I prefer longer cycle with lower doses.

I'm currently on a version of MK like Somatozine. Been on it for 3 months and other than the GH signals, tingly hands ect. I have yet to see anything impressive. what sold you and many others on AM on Somatozine?

As with all GHRP's, MK is not immune to the wide variability in results delivered to people. Some I feel just get sub-par responses in their pituitary to GHRP's. I'm not one of those I guess.

That said, I would say that if you aren't getting much from it, give MA's product a try first before you hang it up. Is it as strong as GH? In some ways, I think so. Anabolicly speaking, maybe. It for sure seemed to compare in terms of glycogen retention and nitrogen uptake as I've lost 8lbs of water since discontinuing its use. That's not unlike even SD. I didn't quite realize how strong it was til it finally cleared my system.

For actual increases in systemic IGF? I doubt it's as strong but that's not good for longevity anyways. If your BG is high, you just might need Lantus with it.

 

[fueledpassion]

I find it easier to mold your physique on a longer cycle introducing, reducing, or increasing compounds for effect. Then maintain that end result through diet and discipline.

this this is always involving and I was wondering what the upside of short burst cycles is.

What you two are saying is one in the same. I technically had one long 6 month cycle for prep this year but from end to end, I ran 6-7 different compounds and shifted from 400-500g carbs daily all the way down to 99% lean ground turkey and MCT oil only at the end. Going from 15min cardio sessions 4-5 times weekly to 60-90 min stairmill 5-7 times a week at the end.

Hardly could be called "one cycle" but a series of micro cycles bunched together over time.

The point about toggling is not what gear, doses etc but what you are accomplishing with said gear. The gear, food choice and training selection are all tools on the toolbelt but the toggle is all about what you are trying to build, i.e. Fat-burning vs. re-comp vs. muscle building. All of those require different calories so an effecfive toggle starts with calories. The rest is there to accent or enhance the effort.

 

[Harry Manback]

I cant remember, have you tried and liked npp? Like, 500mg pw?

NPP is great. Where as tren makes one typically feel like ****, NPP makes you feel good while on it. Better than test. For me at least.

 

[fueledpassion]

NPP is great. Where as tren makes one typically feel like ****, NPP makes you feel good while on it. Better than test. For me at least.

I have not had NPP, but as many have seen through experience and research, the results vary quite a bit.

I for one feel great while on Tren. Sure, a little more edgy at times but I have a very good handle on my attitude and mood 95% of the time and with the help of things like Kratom, Theanine & keeping BP down, I seldom have issues with Tren, especially if I'm running a baseline amount of Test.

Something else, for those who have access to a dry sauna, using that every day or at least 3-4 times per week does wonders for anxiety while on some of these more harsh compounds. And that's a benefit completely independent of burning up to 200-300kcals in 20 minutes time but be prepared to experience hellish conditions because you need about 180* temps to get that effect. It's an excellent "cardio" session if you need to dry out and burn calories at the same time.

 

[Nac]

NPP is great.

Yeah Ill never use deca again.

 

[CatSnake]

Cause legit HGH makes me very lethargic after I take it and eat. I can't stay awake at all on it if I take more than 1iu during the daytime hours.

You could do it pre-WO. I should disclose that I have many time and it generally seems to help with pumps and stamina when I do. The dose timing could be played with. The point is that you only need about 2iu per day with the Somatozine to see very solid gains.

ah. makes sense...

do you have water retention with Somatozine? I tired MK677 a while back, and got really bloated from it...

 

[Harry Manback]

Yeah Ill never use deca again.

Word.

 

[FRITZBLITZ]

Yeah Ill never use deca again.

I wish I had a lifestyle that I could use NPP. It was a better feeling.
I have never been on 19nor at this mg for this length.I'm less concerned with the deca, but when I tranfser o tren should I be prepared for anti prolactin problems. I have been on tren A at 400mg and I kept estro in control with 25mg aromasin ed and caber 1mg /week until the end [didn't realize it but estro got high] I am wondering if I need extra protection [both from estro and prolactin] for such a long 19nor cycle?

I have not had NPP, but as many have seen through experience and research, the results vary quite a bit.

I for one feel great while on Tren. Sure, a little more edgy at times but I have a very good handle on my attitude and mood 95% of the time and with the help of things like Kratom, Theanine & keeping BP down, I seldom have issues with Tren, especially if I'm running a baseline amount of Test.

Something else, for those who have access to a dry sauna, using that every day or at least 3-4 times per week does wonders for anxiety while on some of these more harsh compounds. And that's a benefit completely independent of burning up to 200-300kcals in 20 minutes time but be prepared to experience hellish conditions because you need about 180* temps to get that effect. It's an excellent "cardio" session if you need to dry out and burn calories at the same time.

could you either post or PM all the Tren ancillaries that you take and maybe put a lil what it's for? I have insomnia and take sleeping pills, Take cold showers and chromium for night sweats[ get them on pin day] but I hate how aggro I get. I get annoyed easily without gear so Tren really gets me on edge. I would like to include tren more often if it wasn't so hard mentally. The health sides have not been a problem yet, as my kidneys and liver are in A+ shape but mental and well being sides have an impact