Nolvadex Only to Boost Natural Test

[African Rhino]

Hi guys, i'm new to the forum so i'm sorry if this question has been asked before, would appreciate a little feedback when you have the time. based on my recent bloodwork, my test levels were pretty low, hovering around that 400ng/dl mark, LH and FSH, E2 and E3 all slightly off from where they should be.

Im 29, and have no cycle history and plan on running a 4 week Nolva cycle 30/20/10/10 to hopefully raise my natural test. Do you think it will be beneficial and how bad will the rebound be? Im hoping by tapering off it might help.

Thanks guys

 

[Cgkone]

Keep exemestame on hand for after.
Maybe even during the taper.
If you got bloods after 4 weeks you would know if AI was needed.
I've always wondered about a SERM only first cycle.
I think its a great idea and good way to achieve high normal levels.

 

[Toren]

Hi guys, i'm new to the forum so i'm sorry if this question has been asked before, would appreciate a little feedback when you have the time. based on my recent bloodwork, my test levels were pretty low, hovering around that 400ng/dl mark, LH and FSH, E2 and E3 all slightly off from where they should be.

Im 29, and have no cycle history and plan on running a 4 week Nolva cycle 30/20/10/10 to hopefully raise my natural test. Do you think it will be beneficial and how bad will the rebound be? Im hoping by tapering off it might help.

Thanks guys

Beneficial in what way? If the Tamoxifen is legit it will raise your total Testosterone. There is absolutely no way for any of us to guess to what degree that will happen. If you're hoping to see some minor physique changes, I'd suggest extending the cycle to 6 weeks for a more "lasting" effect. I'd also suggest the 6 weeks for other reasons as well.

I wouldn't personally bother with 30 for the first week. It's not going to do any better than 20 will in that time period (in regards to having an overall positive effect); Although, it may increase the likelihood of side-effects in the short-term.

If it were me, I'd do a cycle like so. (Assuming you have a 30ml RC bottle)

Week 1 - 20
Week 2 - 20
Week 3 - 10
Week 4 - 10
Week 5 - 10
Week 6 - 10 EOD until finished (~ 10 days)

As mentioned, you should have an AI on hand, although you are not likely to need it with Tamoxifen, and with tapering the dose/dosage at the end. Some people don't feel the need to taper Nolva; I think it's a smart move.

 

[Slims]

Isn't Clomid the better SERM option to raise natural testosterone levels?

 

[Toren]

Isn't Clomid the better SERM option to raise natural testosterone levels?

Clomiphene is more studied and tested in that regard. Tamoxifen can and will raise TT to the same degree. Some people respond better to one over the other but both are great at raising endogenous Testosterone levels.

 

[African Rhino]

Thanks for such a quick response mate. I meant beneficial in raising total test levels, obviously im not delusional and expecting to see any major changes in in my physique, but I think just in terms of general wellness it will feel great to be training and at higher test level (also recently engaged so I wouldnt mind a little bump in libido )

Will definitely follow your recommended cycle, what AI would you suggest? I can get hold of Adex and HCG quite easily but aromasin seems to be quite tricky to find. Do you suggest that I only introduce the AI if rebound symptoms start appearing or is it necessary to run it simultaneously?

 

[African Rhino]

Clomiphene is more studied and tested in that regard. Tamoxifen can and will raise TT to the same degree. Some people respond better to one over the other but both are great at raising endogenous Testosterone levels.

Should I try each of them during different cycles separated by a few months and see how my body reacts with bloodwork? Or if the Nolva works should i just stick with that?

 

[Toren]

Thanks for such a quick response mate. I meant beneficial in raising total test levels, obviously im not delusional and expecting to see any major changes in in my physique, but I think just in terms of general wellness it will feel great to be training and at higher test level (also recently engaged so I wouldnt mind a little bump in libido )

Will definitely follow your recommended cycle, what AI would you suggest? I can get hold of Adex and HCG quite easily but aromasin seems to be quite tricky to find. Do you suggest that I only introduce the AI if rebound symptoms start appearing or is it necessary to run it simultaneously?

I'd suggest Exemestane (Brand name is Aromasin. Anastrazole (brand name Arimidex) would work too, but you must make sure to taper it properly as it is not a suicidal inhibitor of the aromatase enzyme, as Exemestane is. You won't have a need for HCG (it's not an AI).

Only use the AI if the need arises. There's no point in introducing extra drugs when not necessary; Especially with limited or no experience with them. You should be fine with the tapering of dose and dosage.

 

[Georgiepecker]

I had Total test around 420 and the Tamoxifen did not make me feel much better or do much to my physique. Dr also said I was pretty much at my natural height of production based on my lh, fsh, etc and birth condition, so I'm not sure if the Tamoxifen had even raised my levels or just lowered estrogen to test ratio.

 

[Toren]

Should I try each of them during different cycles separated by a few months and see how my body reacts with bloodwork? Or if the Nolva works should i just stick with that?

You could definitely do that if you wanted too. You'd be smart to get bloodwork no matter which SERM you run. Personally, I'd get bloodwork before starting, and then 8 weeks after finishing the cycle. This will tell you where your start point is, as well as if your body was able to maintain a 'higher than baseline' level of total Testosterone after the fact. If money is no problem, you could also get bloodwork done immediately after the cycle too. This will tell you how you responded to the specific SERM itself.

Best bet, get bloods before starting Tamox. Get bloods after finishing Tamox. The get bloods 2-3 months later when you try Clomid (or run Tamox again). This last test will tell you if you sustained any of the boosted T levels, as well as act as a baseline for you next cycle. There are a few places where you can get cheap bloodwork done without your doctor having to be involved.

EDIT: I forgot you already had bloodwork done. This would serve as your baseline test results.

 

[African Rhino]

I'd suggest Exemestane (Brand name is Aromasin. Anastrazole (brand name Arimidex) would work too, but you must make sure to taper it properly as it is not a suicidal inhibitor of the aromatase enzyme, as Exemestane is. You won't have a need for HCG (it's not an AI).

Only use the AI if the need arises. There's no point in introducing extra drugs when not necessary; Especially with limited or no experience with them. You should be fine with the tapering of dose and dosage.

Thanks a lot. Can you comment on the hepatotoxicity of SERMS relative to most oral steroids? Probably a stupid question, but is liver support necessary?

 

[African Rhino]

I had Total test around 420 and the Tamoxifen did not make me feel much better or do much to my physique. Dr also said I was pretty much at my natural height of production based on my lh, fsh, etc and birth condition, so I'm not sure if the Tamoxifen had even raised my levels or just lowered estrogen to test ratio.

How old were you when the bloodwork was done if you dont mind me asking? And concerning your LH, FSH etc, did your doctor say that they were within normal range?

 

[Toren]

Thanks a lot. Can you comment on the hepatotoxicity of SERMS relative to most oral steroids? Probably a stupid question, but is liver support necessary?

Less hepatotoxic than oral steroids; Especially 17aa steroids. If you have a pre-existing liver condition, they may impact that condition. I always take 600-1200mg of NAC while using SERMs. This will help with proper liver function.

 

[African Rhino]

You could definitely do that if you wanted too. You'd be smart to get bloodwork no matter which SERM you run. Personally, I'd get bloodwork before starting, and then 8 weeks after finishing the cycle. This will tell you where your start point is, as well as if your body was able to maintain a 'higher than baseline' level of total Testosterone after the fact. If money is no problem, you could also get bloodwork done immediately after the cycle too. This will tell you how you responded to the specific SERM itself.

Best bet, get bloods before starting Tamox. Get bloods after finishing Tamox. The get bloods 2-3 months later when you try Clomid (or run Tamox again). This last test will tell you if you sustained any of the boosted T levels, as well as act as a baseline for you next cycle. There are a few places where you can get cheap bloodwork done without your doctor having to be involved.

EDIT: I forgot you already had bloodwork done. This would serve as your baseline test results.

Ill be able to get the bloodwork done thanks, If i understood you correctly, to determine whether the Tamox actually made a difference I would need to compare the total and free test levels from before the cycle with the total and free test levels from 2-3 months after the cycle? Im assuming there will at least be slight change immediately after the 6 weeks, but ill get that work done nontheless.

is there anything i should do or avoid doing before getting blood work done that might really skew results at all?

 

[Slims]

Should I try each of them during different cycles separated by a few months and see how my body reacts with bloodwork? Or if the Nolva works should i just stick with that?

I'm currently setting up a 12 week Clomid+Natural Testosterone Booster run. I'm getting my pre-run bloods done tomorrow and will start next Monday once everything is here.
I have
Pharma Grade Clomid,
(SERM)
Pharma Grade Aromasin
(Emergency AI),
Olympus Labs Ar1macare Pro
(Cycle Support/Natty Anti-Estrogen)
And
PerforMax Labs AlphaMax XT
(Natural Testosterone Booster)

The Plan is
Pharma Grade Clomid
25/25/25/25/25/25/25/25/12.5/12.5/12.5/6.25
PerforMax AlphaMax XT
4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4
Olympus Labs Ar1macare Pro
8/8/8/8/8/8/8/8/8/8
Pharma Grade Aromasin
Emergency Only

Thoughts Toren ?

 

[Georgiepecker]

How old were you when the bloodwork was done if you dont mind me asking? And concerning your LH, FSH etc, did your doctor say that they were within normal range?

I was about 20 and a month old. My levels were in optimal range actually from my research., not only within the medical range aswell

 

[Toren]

Ill be able to get the bloodwork done thanks, If i understood you correctly, to determine whether the Tamox actually made a difference I would need to compare the total and free test levels from before the cycle with the total and free test levels from 2-3 months after the cycle? Im assuming there will at least be slight change immediately after the 6 weeks, but ill get that work done nontheless.

is there anything i should do or avoid doing before getting blood work done that might really skew results at all?

Correct. If your levels are still elevated (from your initial baseline) 2-3 months afterwards, it might indicate that your increased levels are here to stay. It's really hard to say how those levels will play long-term though.

You should be fasted the morning of your blood test, as well you should aim to have the blodwork done early in the morning (after waking up).

 

[African Rhino]

Correct. If your levels are still elevated (from your initial baseline) 2-3 months afterwards, it might indicate that your increased levels are here to stay. It's really hard to say how those levels will play long-term though.

You should be fasted the morning of your blood test, as well you should aim to have the blodwork done early in the morning (after waking up).

Makes sense.
In your opinion, what degree of elevation in natty test levels do you think someone would need before experiencing any of the effects?

 

[Toren]

I'm currently setting up a 12 week Clomid+Natural Testosterone Booster run. I'm getting my pre-run bloods done tomorrow and will start next Monday once everything is here.
I have
Pharma Grade Clomid,
(SERM)
Pharma Grade Aromasin
(Emergency AI),
Olympus Labs Ar1macare Pro
(Cycle Support/Natty Anti-Estrogen)
And
PerforMax Labs AlphaMax XT
(Natural Testosterone Booster)

The Plan is
Pharma Grade Clomid
25/25/25/25/25/25/25/25/12.5/12.5/12.5/6.25
PerforMax AlphaMax XT
4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4
Olympus Labs Ar1macare Pro
8/8/8/8/8/8/8/8/8/8
Pharma Grade Aromasin
Emergency Only

Thoughts Toren ?

I don't personally like the idea of running Clomiphene for 3 months without a definite need to do so. Having said that, plenty of people are on long-term clomid therapy with seemingly no negative side-effects - usually under the guidance of a physician though. I like to keep my SERM usage to 8 weeks or less.

You should take a look at some of the Clomid threads floating around the forum. Lower dosages have been better for some people. I believe higher doses have more of a chance of initiating a negative feed-back loop or even possible desensitization of receptors. You might also be careful to not over-stimulate LH/FSH for extended periods of time. I am by no means an expert in this area so please do some more reading on these topics.

I can't tell you what to do but I tend to be a bit more careful in my dosing protocols these days. If you do plan on following through with the full 12 weeks, I might suggest 25 for the first couple of weeks, followed by 12.5 mg for the rest (tapering to EOD at the end). Maybe you would entertain the though of running Clomid/Alphamaxx for 8 weeks and then dropping the clomid and continuing with the Alphamaxx for the remaining 4 weeks..

There are some graphs floating around the forum that show studies of how people respond to different doses/dosages of Clomid. I did a quick search but did not find them. Maybe somebody will post up the graphs or link the forum threads......

There was also a couple of threads (on AM) where people were successful in greatly elevating their TT with low or moderate doses of Clomid.

I can't comment definitively on the Alphamaxx XT and ACP but they should be fine and probably helpful in different ways. There may be some overlap or redundancy there though, with taking both products simultaneously. Maybe take a look at the ingredients and if necessary, adjust the doses accordingly?

 

[Toren]

Makes sense.
In your opinion, what degree of elevation in natty test levels do you think someone would need before experiencing any of the effects?

I wish I could give you a definitive answer but I have no way of knowing.

As far as how you will feel with elevated levels, that is person-dependent. Some people feel great in the low or moderate Test range while others feel better in the higher range. I truly believe that lowered T levels (as long as they don't affect your day to day well-being) is actually a natural part of aging and is a GOOD thing is many ways. That is a topic for another day though... Having elevated levels (high range) can bring about some noticeable changes in the physique over a particular period of time. Increased protein synthesis, increased fat loss, increased libido are all possible. Of course, high/low levels of one hormone tend to equal high/low levels of other hormones too. This is why we don't ultimately know what an individual reaction will be. This is also why some people tend to feel great in the early stages of hormone manipulation but then start to feel less-than great as time pushes on. The endocrine system is incredibly complex.

If you are asking how much short-term elevation would be needed to potentially sustain some form of elevated long-term level, I'd be a fool to try and answer that question. Each of us are unique and the body is still a complete mystery, even to the best scientists.

 

[Slims]

I don't personally like the idea of running Clomiphene for 3 months without a definite need to do so. Having said that, plenty of people are on long-term clomid therapy with seemingly no negative side-effects - usually under the guidance of a physician though. I like to keep my SERM usage to 8 weeks or less.

You should take a look at some of the Clomid threads floating around the forum. Lower dosages have been better for some people. I believe higher doses have more of a chance of initiating a negative feed-back loop or even possible desensitization of receptors. You might also be careful to not over-stimulate LH/FSH for extended periods of time. I am by no means an expert in this area so please do some more reading on these topics.

I can't tell you what to do but I tend to be a bit more careful in my dosing protocols these days. If you do plan on following through with the full 12 weeks, I might suggest 25 for the first couple of weeks, followed by 12.5 mg for the rest (tapering to EOD at the end). Maybe you would entertain the though of running Clomid/Alphamaxx for 8 weeks and then dropping the clomid and continuing with the Alphamaxx for the remaining 4 weeks..

There was also a couple of threads (on AM) where people were successful in greatly elevating their TT with low or moderate doses of Clomid.

I can't comment definitively on the Alphamaxx XT and ACP but they should be fine and probably helpful in different ways. There may be some overlap or redundancy there though, with taking both products simultaneously. Maybe take a look at the ingredients and if necessary, adjust the doses accordingly?

I have naturally low testosterone but even after three years of tests, biopsies, specialists etc the doctor's over here in the UK refuse to treat it. So I'm kind of setting up/running my own HRT with Clomid, as it's usually the first port of call (Tried, Tested And True) compound used to treat low testosterone in the medical profession.

 

[African Rhino]

Keep exemestame on hand for after.
Maybe even during the taper.
If you got bloods after 4 weeks you would know if AI was needed.
I've always wondered about a SERM only first cycle.
I think its a great idea and good way to achieve high normal levels.

Thank for the advice bro, ill keep you updated with the results.