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GOT BUSTED ON MY BLOODWORK!!! need advise

Mast and EQ = great strength + insane pumps + gnarly roadmap veins + great sex drive.

My first cycle ever was:
750mg Test-E
750mg EQ
300mg Mast -E

And still was the best experience I've ever had on AAS. I got this euphoric drive 2hrs sharp after each dose, twice per week. Sex drive was stupendous and pumps/vascularity/strength were fantastic and rivaled anything.

After having Test alone at various times, I realized how much weight those other two were carrying, lol. Test is like, "meh". Kinda need a gram to get stupid strength and growth, IME.
 
FRITZBLITZ said:
Thanks for extra info. I checked they used LC/MS/MS ....I'm curious about my TT. They told me over the phone it was 2800s but it was 2400s, This was still higher than what I thought 300mg would put me at. I'm well into cycle so no natty T production. At 200mg/T200 TRT dose usually puts a guy at 1000 so 300mg/T250 should put me at 1600-1800 and that is what I had planned for. Not that I have high BP or sides but still want to know what caused an 800ng jump.

On diff note I almost feel better with my T esters running out but still dosing EQ & Deca. I'm thinking of just running 150-200mg of Test after BW
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I feel a little better once I start cruising.
Like relieved or something
 
I skipped most of the thread but why not just lie and say you took a double dose that week because you thought you missed a shot or something along the lines
 
FRITZBLITZ said:
Thanks for extra info. I checked they used LC/MS/MS ....I'm curious about my TT. They told me over the phone it was 2800s but it was 2400s, This was still higher than what I thought 300mg would put me at. I'm well into cycle so no natty T production. At 200mg/T200 TRT dose usually puts a guy at 1000 so 300mg/T250 should put me at 1600-1800 and that is what I had planned for. Not that I have high BP or sides but still want to know what caused an 800ng jump.

On diff note I almost feel better with my T esters running out but still dosing EQ & Deca. I'm thinking of just running 150-200mg of Test after BW
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Man where are you getting your numbers from?

Ive seen guys on here doing 100mg cyp per week, and getting 900+ at the trough.

Youre saying its more common to see that blood measure with double the test inj?
 
Nac said:
Man where are you getting your numbers from?

Ive seen guys on here doing 100mg cyp per week, and getting 900+ at the trough.

Youre saying its more common to see that blood measure with double the test inj?
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TBQH I only have 2 unscientific charts that are pretty accurate and I've had 2 friends run 200mg/week and at end of cycle they were around 1200 so I'm putting 2 guestimations together. I have never found a good scientific calculator for compounds. If you have 1 please let me know
 
Cgkone said:
I feel a little better once I start cruising.
Like relieved or something
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What do you cruise at? I know few guys that cruise at a bit higher than TRT and/or add Mast, EQ, or Deca...I don't know anyone that throws more than 1 fav compound in with their TRT. On diff note Fuiledpassion said EQ as HRT is great feeling and other than giving blood no sides. There are so many options...I FUKKING LOVE IT. Just when you think you have enough knowledge about gear you get surprised with a whole new aspect of gearology
 
FRITZBLITZ said:
What do you cruise at? I know few guys that cruise at a bit higher than TRT and/or add Mast, EQ, or Deca...I don't know anyone that throws more than 1 fav compound in with their TRT. On diff note Fuiledpassion said EQ as HRT is great feeling and other than giving blood no sides. There are so many options...I FUKKING LOVE IT. Just when you think you have enough knowledge about gear you get surprised with a whole new aspect of gearology
Click to expand...
This last cruise was deca 150 and test 300.
This time I really want to go lower
Hopefully 150 Test 75 deca.
I can't imagine life without Deca.
Ever since this thread was started i have started to get obsessed with EQ.
I'm going to force myself to stay off for 12 weeks( keep fingers crossed).
There are quite a few of us that keep a few compounds in the body.
 
FRITZBLITZ said:
TBQH I only have 2 unscientific charts that are pretty accurate and I've had 2 friends run 200mg/week and at end of cycle they were around 1200 so I'm putting 2 guestimations together. I have never found a good scientific calculator for compounds. If you have 1 please let me know
Click to expand...

Ultimately the charts are sh1t, personal measures rule above all else cos the charts dont/cant account for individual metabolic differences.

But, Ive only been utilising the PK studies itt cos we only have one measure from you, which is obviously crappola for ascertaining any anomolous readings. Cos sure, this measure we have of yours involves potential confounds.

So, as Ive been claiming: your 2800 on 300mg and the timing of the draw are absolutely within the range of what the PK studies predict. Thus, without previous bloods for context, Im confused as to why you are adamant your meaure is anomolous.

The best charts Ive seen:

Invalid Link Removed

Note: this is just a guide, obviously. Individual bloods are numero uno assuming accurately dosed test.

And, again: when you draw is a major factor in readings. So your friends who measured around 1200, was that a trough reading? Peak? Somewhere in between? Timing matters, as measures could be as much as a 50%+ difference depending on when the draw is done, plus factor in pin protocol, etc.
 
Cgkone said:
This last cruise was deca 150 and test 300.
This time I really want to go lower
Hopefully 150 Test 75 deca.
I can't imagine life without Deca.
Ever since this thread was started i have started to get obsessed with EQ.
I'm going to force myself to stay off for 12 weeks( keep fingers crossed).
There are quite a few of us that keep a few compounds in the body.
Click to expand...

Ya I could honestly say that if I tried a cruise I would try a EQ 300 deca 200. I may be just having a good week, but I feel a bit more upbeat and my sex drive is higher which seems weird. I also seem to have a huge metabolism increase.

However this would be a huge coincidence if it was not side of high EQ low/no Test; when I raise my metabolism from working out it doesn't shut off. I always rock a cool towel around my neck to keep from overheating but after WO I stay burning up and hungry forever. I also have a case of hypoglycemia almost like I'm shooting slin. I get a glucose crash all the time especially after WO and also after eating. If it wasn't for the overheating [which feels like I'm on some serious thermogenic fat burner] I would be happy with the calorie burn, but at the same time I've been shopping for slow release dextrose tablets so I don't crash.
 
FRITZBLITZ said:
TBQH I only have 2 unscientific charts that are pretty accurate and I've had 2 friends run 200mg/week and at end of cycle they were around 1200 so I'm putting 2 guestimations together. I have never found a good scientific calculator for compounds. If you have 1 please let me know
Click to expand...

Im in pharmacy school, I can show you how to calculate this precisely. All I need is your blood level post injection, body weight, the day and time(as close as you can get), and what test ester you used. This is what that PK section of the package insert is for, if its UGL forget it, as I have no idea the quality. I can also tell you the exact half life of a certain ester in your body.
 
2kvette said:
Im in pharmacy school, I can show you how to calculate this precisely. All I need is your blood level post injection, body weight, the day and time(as close as you can get), and what test ester you used. This is what that PK section of the package insert is for, if its UGL forget it, as I have no idea the quality. I can also tell you the exact half life of a certain ester in your body.
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So I'm 6'4, 270lbs, It was 150mg[300/week] of Test C and blood was pulled aroung 5 hours after pin at 10 am. But for whatever reason [I know this is a myth] but test c stays active longer in my system.
 
2kvette said:
Im in pharmacy school, I can show you how to calculate this precisely. All I need is your blood level post injection, body weight, the day and time(as close as you can get), and what test ester you used. This is what that PK section of the package insert is for, if its UGL forget it, as I have no idea the quality. I can also tell you the exact half life of a certain ester in your body.
Click to expand...

Ive seen crossover studies (small sample size) where cyp has a nigh on identical PK and half life as enanthate, 4.5 days. Yet, one of the popular pharma companies who supplies script test cyp lists the halflife as almost double, 8 days. I cant for the life of me find the data the pharma co has based this figure on.

Any ideas as to this discrepency?
 
FRITZBLITZ said:
So I'm 6'4, 270lbs, It was 150mg[300/week] of Test C and blood was pulled aroung 5 hours after pin at 10 am. But for whatever reason [I know this is a myth] but test c stays active longer in my system.
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Definately not a myth. It's a certain fact. We all have different amounts of esterases in our blood, so some cleave the ester faster or slower. The half life you see in the pk data is an average of half lives in the phase 3 of the drug approval process. what do you mean 150mg 300/wk? two shots per week? Your blood work does not make sense.

Ht/Wt=6 4/270lb
Dose=150mg test c?
Last dose=what day and time?
Blood test=3pm

There is just no way your blood can spike like that five hours after a dose of test c, and if so, the blood test is worthless b/c it does not make sense. The only way this would be possible is your liver is impaired and your SHBG is stupid low, test is 98% bound.

Also, at that dosage interval(twice a week?), you wont reach steady state levels until 40-50 days after first starting. So you may not be at peak yet for the dosing schedule.
 
Nac said:
Ive seen crossover studies (small sample size) where cyp has a nigh on identical PK and half life as enanthate, 4.5 days. Yet, one of the popular pharma companies who supplies script test cyp lists the halflife as almost double, 8 days. I cant for the life of me find the data the pharma co has based this figure on.

Any ideas as to this discrepency?
Click to expand...

Yes, that is the average of the half lives of all participants in the PK study. I've seen patients who are on 5 day dosing schedules and some on 21 day schedules. The more esterase a persons liver makes, the shorter it lasts. Genetic variation in all individuals accounts for this discrepancy.
 
Nac said:
Ive seen crossover studies (small sample size) where cyp has a nigh on identical PK and half life as enanthate, 4.5 days. Yet, one of the popular pharma companies who supplies script test cyp lists the halflife as almost double, 8 days. I cant for the life of me find the data the pharma co has based this figure on.

Any ideas as to this discrepency?
Click to expand...

Yes, that is the average of the half lives of all participants in the PK study. I've seen patients who are on 5 day dosing schedules and some on 21 day schedules. The more esterase a persons liver makes, the shorter it lasts. Genetic variation in all individuals accounts for this discrepancy.
 
2kvette said:
Definately not a myth. It's a certain fact. We all have different amounts of esterases in our blood, so some cleave the ester faster or slower. The half life you see in the pk data is an average of half lives in the phase 3 of the drug approval process. what do you mean 150mg 300/wk? two shots per week? Your blood work does not make sense.

Ht/Wt=6 4/270lb
Dose=150mg test c?
Last dose=what day and time?
Blood test=3pm

There is just no way your blood can spike like that five hours after a dose of test c, and if so, the blood test is worthless b/c it does not make sense. The only way this would be possible is your liver is impaired and your SHBG is stupid low, test is 98% bound.

Also, at that dosage interval(twice a week?), you wont reach steady state levels until 40-50 days after first starting. So you may not be at peak yet for the dosing schedule.
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so 300mg/week......150mg pinned 10am friday and blood pulled at 3 pm

Edit liver, lipid, kidneys everything is perfect. I do take OTC to raise FT but that was not tested
 
FRITZBLITZ said:
so 300mg/week......150mg pinned 10am friday and blood pulled at 3 pm

Edit liver, lipid, kidneys everything is perfect. I do take OTC to raise FT but that was not tested
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How long have you been doing this? greater than 5-6 weeks? If so, you still havent topped out at that dosage level. And we need FT to do the math.............
 
Nac said:
Ive seen crossover studies (small sample size) where cyp has a nigh on identical PK and half life as enanthate, 4.5 days. Yet, one of the popular pharma companies who supplies script test cyp lists the halflife as almost double, 8 days. I cant for the life of me find the data the pharma co has based this figure on.

Any ideas as to this discrepency?
Click to expand...

i would love any ideas on this ^^^^^
 
Nac said:
Part of me is expecting a "lol at the mental masturbation" or "wat a bunch of navel gazing" from either Admin or David Dunn
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I agree. I don't have enough scientific notes to start a thread about this but they consider it a myth because the esters are so close [ overwhelming amount off ppl and athletes believe Cyp is stronger than Enath] In my opinion I think it's about 12%-15 longer active and I have no clue why but unless I'm trying to match my esters to a fine point I always pin Cyp.
 
I enjoy the discussion. Its a way to fill the time between taking sh1ts and playing with myself so it does fill a practical purpose.
 
Nac said:
I enjoy the discussion. Its a way to fill the time between taking sh1ts and playing with myself so it does fill a practical purpose.
Click to expand...

The only thing I can think of [I'm just guessing off a diagram] is that when your body metabolizes the cyp fatty acid it leaves a carbon attached to the Test allowing it to float around active until another enzyme removes the carbon. And that could give it that extra life compared to enanth.
 
Nac said:
Ive seen crossover studies (small sample size) where cyp has a nigh on identical PK and half life as enanthate, 4.5 days. Yet, one of the popular pharma companies who supplies script test cyp lists the halflife as almost double, 8 days. I cant for the life of me find the data the pharma co has based this figure on.

Any ideas as to this discrepency?
Click to expand...

There's a chart in here comparing cyp and enanthate. (I assume this is the one you were referring to?)

FWIW, one study here shows peak with enathate at 10 hrs, whereas another chart seems to indicate closer to a day.

Invalid Link Removed

seems that enanthate and cyp have very close half-life on that chart, tho...
 
CatSnake said:
There's a chart in here comparing cyp and enanthate. (I assume this is the one you were referring to?)

FWIW, one study here shows peak with enathate at 10 hrs, whereas another chart seems to indicate closer to a day.

Invalid Link Removed

seems that enanthate and cyp have very close half-life on that chart, tho...
Click to expand...
Cyp and eth are damn near identical
 
CatSnake said:
There's a chart in here comparing cyp and enanthate. (I assume this is the one you were referring to?)

FWIW, one study here shows peak with enathate at 10 hrs, whereas another chart seems to indicate closer to a day.

Invalid Link Removed

seems that enanthate and cyp have very close half-life on that chart, tho...
Click to expand...

Smont said:
Cyp and eth are damn near identical
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Thats exactly it. From a practical standpoint, most users treat them as damn near identical. The protocols for their 'ideal use' are the same, the generic e3.5d, or 2x per week. Or once per week. At any rate, the protocols match.

Which seems at odds with a "documented" half-life difference of nearly double.
 
Nac said:
Thats exactly it. From a practical standpoint, most users treat them as damn near identical. The protocols for their 'ideal use' are the same, the generic e3.5d, or 2x per week. Or once per week. At any rate, the protocols match.

Which seems at odds with a "documented" half-life difference of nearly double.
Click to expand...
I've always read 7-10 days. It's been a few years but I never had a problem interchangeable
 
Smont said:
I've always read 7-10 days. It's been a few years but I never had a problem interchangeable
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7-10 days half-life range for both cyp and e? Thats what Id read on te forums, but the studies (THE STUDIEZ!!) show different.
 
Nac said:
7-10 days half-life range for both cyp and e? Thats what Id read on te forums, but the studies (THE STUDIEZ!!) show different.
Click to expand...

This is one of the most informing threads I have copied more solid info from this than any other post in a long time. Thanks for the info guys. I have always stuck with cyp of my feeling and was told it was a myth but I see that it does at least have a decent edge over enath. I am almost glad my bloodwork was high just for this info...BTW I gave my fallow-up sample [the one that says the first BW was wrong or contaminated] wish me luck!!! I see me doc soon and we'll see what happens.
 
I read that enathate is an 7 chain ester, and cyp is a 8 chain ester.

Also, somewhere I read that the oil used is different... enanthate is in sesame oil, and cottonseed oil for cyp. <not sure if that matters, tho... maybe for someone with an allergy, I guess...
 
Part of me suspects the cyp preference of endos could be a pharma supply thing. If thats whats being pushed, or offered at best cost, makes sense. Who knows what early/older promo material (propaganda) was used to push cyp, which has now become entrenched in medical thinking.

Maybe cyp is "better", but if we are going solely by half-life and ester weight there doesnt seem to be much in it.
 
Nac said:
Part of me suspects the cyp preference of endos could be a pharma supply thing. If thats whats being pushed, or offered at best cost, makes sense. Who knows what early/older promo material (propaganda) was used to push cyp, which has now become entrenched in medical thinking.

Maybe cyp is "better", but if we are going solely by half-life and ester weight there doesnt seem to be much in it.
Click to expand...

I have been told by 3 docs including mine that there is zero preference as far as pharma companies most that make cyp make E as well but there were 2 studies that are refrenced in Med school that just show the peaks and troughs of cyp being less high and low and not that big of a difference but enough to be the industry standard.

I don't even think most endo's realize there is any diff other than a slightly more stable serum level with cyp,
 
Id love to see those two studies. Im obviously a mere lay-hobbyist, but atm my PK library is limited to that paper catsnake and I have both linked.
 
I Kno how mUch everyone likes to debate on this site but what about the original post or did I miss something
 
Nac said:
Id love to see those two studies. Im obviously a mere lay-hobbyist, but atm my PK library is limited to that paper catsnake and I have both linked.
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I don't remember the names. It's just a coincedence that I asked 1 endo about cyp 4 years ago and she just stated "there were 2 major studies showing blahh" My doc mentioned it in more detail but again without names. I other doc said same thing when I was calling around for endos. So really I'm just putting 2 and 2 together. When I see my doc I can ask for the studies. It would be perfect timing after the BW mix up
 
Smont said:
I Kno how mUch everyone likes to debate on this site but what about the original post or did I miss something
Click to expand...

That would be me. I just gave second BW sample today and I should be around 800 since 0 test for 13 days except 50mg 3 days ago [ just can't have that low of a number] So I will know in a short while when I see my doc
 
So youve done anothet draw. When was this one done relative to the last pin?

Edit nvm i see youve droped your dose anyway
 
Nac said:
So youve done anothet draw. When was this one done relative to the last pin?
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So today makes it 15 days from OG last pin when I had elevated BW but 3 days ago I pinned 50mg of Test just to make sure I don't have a low number and I asked the Lab that does the BW and they test for enzymes that indicate steady serum levels
 
FRITZBLITZ said:
So today makes it 15 days from OG last pin when I had elevated BW but 3 days ago I pinned 50mg of Test just to make sure I don't have a low number and I asked the Lab that does the BW and they test for enzymes that indicate steady serum levels
Click to expand...

Just so Im clear, you did your last 150mg pin 15 days ago (your last bloods, 2800), then for 12 days you pinned no test, at which point you did 50mg, then 3 days after that 50mg pin you did a draw?
 
Nac said:
Just so Im clear, you did your last 150mg pin 15 days ago (your last bloods, 2800), then for 12 days you pinned no test, at which point you did 50mg, then 3 days after that 50mg pin you did a draw?
Click to expand...

exactly right...what do you think?
 
FRITZBLITZ said:
exactly right...what do you think?
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My lay-hobbyist prediction would be somewhere in vicinity of mid-high range. I wouldnt be totally surprised if you measured low range, though; Id be more surprised if you measured high range-low supraphysiological.
 
Nac said:
My lay-hobbyist prediction would be somewhere in vicinity of mid-high range. I wouldnt be totally surprised if you measured low range, though; Id be more surprised if you measured high range-low supraphysiological.
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I'm guessing a 800 which my doc would say is low but even if it comes in at 1150 I'm good so as long as its above 650 and below 1200 I'm golden, I think I made the best effort one could do with the situation and guessing on the numbers.
 
FRITZBLITZ said:
I agree. I don't have enough scientific notes to start a thread about this but they consider it a myth because the esters are so close [ overwhelming amount off ppl and athletes believe Cyp is stronger than Enath] In my opinion I think it's about 12%-15 longer active and I have no clue why but unless I'm trying to match my esters to a fine point I always pin Cyp.
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It's not a myth!!!! The half life listed in the package insert is the AVERAGE HALF LIFE OF 1,000 PEOPLE
IN THE CLINICAL TRIAL!!!! Meaning 20-30 people in the trial cleared the drug in 5 days, 500 people cleared it in 7 days, and 200-300 cleared it in 10 days. The speed at which you clear it depends on how much esterase your genes are programmed to make. I can personally attest to seeing the drug clear a patient in 5 days time. It is extremely extremely common. Most people vary in half around 1 days time.

No myth, common medical knowledge the public often misunderstands. Half life of a drug differs widely from patient to patient.

Another good point to make. Test has a high volume of distribution. So even after it's totally cleared from blood, it's not cleared from tissues. Which is why the olympics is able to detect winstrol in urine 4 weeks after you stop taking it even though it has like a 12 hour half life.
 
I get that half-life will vary over individuals, but isnt that one of the benefits of a crossover study: you get the same esterase component in a single individual. So, if that individual metabolizes cyp nigh on identically to enanthate, the hallf-life is nigh in identical for those two esters across all individuals, even if the absolute time varies (as evidenced in the cyp clinical trials).

In other words, the crossover study demonstrates that cyp and enanthate have "close enough to similiar" half-lives, but what that actual timespan is will vary for individuals.

Fritzblitz: "I cleared a dose of cyp in 5 days!" ...well thats what we will predict you will do with a comparable dose of enanthate too

Nac: "I cleared a dose of enanthate in 8 days!"...well thats what we will predict you will do with a comparable dose of cyp too
 
Nac said:
I get that half-life will vary over individuals, but isnt that one of the benefits of a crossover study: you get the same esterase component in a single individual. So, if that individual metabolizes cyp nigh on identically to enanthate, the hallf-life is nigh in identical for those two esters across all individuals, even if the absolute time varies (as evidenced in the cyp clinical trials).

In other words, the crossover study demonstrates that cyp and enanthate have "close enough to similiar" half-lives, but what that actual timespan is will vary for individuals.

Fritzblitz: "I cleared a dose of cyp in 5 days!" ...well thats what we will predict you will do with a comparable dose of enanthate too

Nac: "I cleared a dose of enanthate in 8 days!"...well thats what we will predict you will do with a comparable dose of cyp too
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Precisely.
 
So guys the rabbit whole has gotten ****t ton deeper; Just to recap my doc surprised tested my Test during routine BW. My TT was 2800. I was taking
Test-C 300mg, EQ 450mg, Deca 450mg, a week split into 2x a week. After being caught at 2800 and worring about losing my TRT I stopped pinning any Test for 15 days then pinned Test c 50mg 3 days before BW last friday.

THIS ****T GETS WEIRD...after 19 days of 0 Test My TT was 5400 and my FT was 480 [please inform me what type of mg dose would be needed to elivate to 5400 TT and 480 FT?]. I even cut back my EQ to 300mg/week and Deca 300mg/week. How on earth is this possible???

On the good side I don't have to worry about losing my TRT because my doc knows I wouldn't ask for a retest just to double up my Test intake. So he is doing a full panal this time e2 ect. Other than killing my good cholesterol I feel worse now that it's this high. You have to realize that ONLY 50mg of Test was injected in the 19 day span that doubled my Testosterone. FUKKING DOUBLED ALREADY DECENTLY HIGH TEST. That would mean that my balls are making 2200 worth of Test or something else because I lowered EQ, Lowered Deca and eliminated Test.

The only variable in this is that I take a modified version of MK-677. But from my knowledge this should not have a direct or indirect effect on Test production or testosterone retention [which doesn't even matter because retention is not x2]
 
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