High Dose Fish Oil, big difference?

Thanks for this thread. I started to increase my fish oil and I'm glad to caught this thread as it seems to encourage higher doses of fish oil.
 
JDybya said:
Started doing the same here. No noticeable difference in joints, gut, or head. But I enjoy it a hell of a lot more. And it just feels more natural, getting the fats from the fish itself - makes sense.
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I don't have joint problems, I just do it for lipids, etc... It makes sense - ancient man wasn't eating 2oz of fish every day, they caught some huge one's and ate them all at once for the most part (Bears too! :D)
 
The_Old_Guy said:
I don't have joint problems, I just do it for lipids, etc... It makes sense - ancient man wasn't eating 2oz of fish every day, they caught some huge one's and ate them all at once for the most part (Bears too! :D)
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Careful brah, dat dere paleo logik.
 
I dunno...I guess Im saying I find that study underwhelming, and any evolutionary/historical justifications equally suspect.
 
MARK_ said:
Thanks for this thread. I started to increase my fish oil and I'm glad to caught this thread as it seems to encourage higher doses of fish oil.
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To be frank, anyone making blanket suggestions for higher dosed fish oil has no idea what they are talking about and can cause more harm that do good in different people. A more responsible recommendation should be for everyone to have a good balance between omega 3/6/9. leaning to far in any direction is counter intuitive to health.
 
I can't say for sure if fish oil helps me in any way so I'll be taking a break once I finish my bottle.

Lyle McDonald says that fish oil is more readily used for energy and less likely to be stored as fat compared to other fat sources.

There's also good reason to eat a diet high in good fats like fish oil; all of your cell's phospholipid bi-layers are made of fat and fish oil is more free-flowing from what I've read. So yes, you are what you eat, and it can take a while (years) for any drastic dietary fat changes to replace what's already in your body.
 
NoAddedHmones said:
To be frank, anyone making blanket suggestions for higher dosed fish oil has no idea what they are talking about and can cause more harm that do good in different people. A more responsible recommendation should be for everyone to have a good balance between omega 3/6/9. leaning to far in any direction is counter intuitive to health.
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To be fair....I think more people in here are against high doses than are for. Or at least skeptical. I am not against it, but I wouldn't run huge doses forever.

Beyond someone using coumadin, what issues are you aware of? I honestly don't know.....
 
Fish once or twice a week, don't overthink it.


Use the extra money on overstimed out preworkouts that makes your heart pop out of you chest during squats.
 
HIT4ME said:
To be fair....I think more people in here are against high doses than are for. Or at least skeptical. I am not against it, but I wouldn't run huge doses forever.

Beyond someone using coumadin, what issues are you aware of? I honestly don't know.....
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The point im trying to make is there needs to be balance between proinflammatory signalling molecules and anti inflammatory molecules, leaning too far in either direction will negatively effect your health.
 
NoAddedHmones said:
The point im trying to make is there needs to be balance between proinflammatory signalling molecules and anti inflammatory molecules, leaning too far in either direction will negatively effect your health.
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Gotcha. So if I fry my salmon I should be g2g? J/k

Yeah...I agree with that though. Too often we think of things being good or bad for us and that is way over simplified. Inflammation is needed for normal function...And we often forget that. I see the same with cortisol a lot...People just love yo lower cortisol.

I think the majority of the population eats processed foods with lots of sugar and fats. Generally I have taken this to mean we typically have high levels of 6-9 and the 3 is to balance that out...And I can see high doses being necessary when we have been out of balance because of that for years and years and years (in order to bring balance back).

But none of that argues with your statements. My hypothesis above starts with a generalization which is never as Good as understanding the specific situation at hand with accurate data.
 
HIT4ME said:
Gotcha. So if I fry my salmon I should be g2g? J/k

Yeah...I agree with that though. Too often we think of things being good or bad for us and that is way over simplified. Inflammation is needed for normal function...And we often forget that. I see the same with cortisol a lot...People just love yo lower cortisol.

I think the majority of the population eats processed foods with lots of sugar and fats. Generally I have taken this to mean we typically have high levels of 6-9 and the 3 is to balance that out...And I can see high doses being necessary when we have been out of balance because of that for years and years and years (in order to bring balance back).

But none of that argues with your statements. My hypothesis above starts with a generalization which is never as Good as understanding the specific situation at hand with accurate data.
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Im not suggesting don't supplement with fish oil cause its going to negatively impact health, not sure why others are getting their knickers in a knot and being patronizing. Im sure it is perfectly fine for most to consume the generally accepted 2-3g of combined EPA/DHA a day. I am just trying to make the point that using huge doses of fish oil and causing a large imbalance one way in the omega 3/6/9 ratio is potentially going to negatively effect you.

You are probably right that there are situations (diseased states were a certain higher amount of omega 3 will show benefit) but for a relatively healthy individual, it would be pretty unwise to extrapolate those results for your own personal situation.
 
NoAddedHmones said:
I am just trying to make the point that using huge doses of fish oil and causing a large imbalance one way in the omega 3/6/9 ratio is potentially going to negatively effect you.
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So what is the optimum ratio of fat intake for a healthy person?

Gotta feel bad for the Eskimos and grizzly bears during salmon season, their health must decline due to all the fish oils.
 
Huge doses of fish oil is insane - proven to be detrimental to the immune system. 2-3g/day *or* 15-20g once a week (7g-10g 2x week) is all you need.
 
NoAddedHmones said:
To be frank, anyone making blanket suggestions for higher dosed fish oil has no idea what they are talking about and can cause more harm that do good in different people. A more responsible recommendation should be for everyone to have a good balance between omega 3/6/9. leaning to far in any direction is counter intuitive to health.
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Note, I'm not telling anyone they should take higher dose fish oil. I'm just saying I think it has positive effects on body composition for me personally (and remember I was probably at a deficit).

However, it's not entirely clear to me that say, 30g of supplemental fish oil per day is harmful. Sure, it is in extracted form rather than its natural state, but a pound of salmon can have around 50g of fat. It's not clear to me on the face of it why 30g of fish oil is necessarily harmful. Particularly when the western diet is far higher in Omega 6 fats.

In a traditional Japanese diet for example I suspect you would be getting a much higher ratio of o-3 to o-6.

Also bodybuilding is about health but it also is about experimentation, going to extremes, and pushing limits to achieve unusual amounts of muscularity and strength. (I wouldn't call higher dose fish oil all that extreme but you get the idea.)

For cost reasons I'll probably be sticking with around 20-30g/day personally, but I do think I make better gains and look better when I'm getting a solid amount of fish oil per day. And again, both Poliquin and Duchaine make strong statements about fish oil/omega-3s being very favorable to anabolism.
 
Justlooking5 said:
However, it's not entirely clear to me that say, 30g of supplemental fish oil per day is harmful. It's not clear to me on the face of it why 30g of fish oil is necessarily harmful.

For cost reasons I'll probably be sticking with around 20-30g/day personally...
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Did you make multiple Typos? 20-30 grams? Per day? You should Google/PubMed > High Dose Fish Oil Immune System <
 
The_Old_Guy said:
I'm talking about you taking ~ 10 times the usual, healthy, recommended amount of Omega-3s per day.
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Isn't that what this thread is about? It's been discussed in detail including my sense that a couple grams of poorly absorbed capsules (i.e., the "recommended" dose) per day was insufficient for me personally.

And again, granted it's in supplemental form, but if you dare eat a 1/2 lbs. of salmon per day you're likely getting at least 20g.
 
The_Old_Guy said:
Huge doses of fish oil is insane - proven to be detrimental to the immune system. 2-3g/day *or* 15-20g once a week (7g-10g 2x week) is all you need.
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Are you referring to this mice study or something else?

The mice, all of which had been genetically altered to be more susceptible to bacterial infections, were then exposed to bacteria that increased their risk of developing colon cancer and colitis.

The mice that had received medium and high dosages of the omega-3 fatty acid developed late-stage colon cancer, the researchers found. The other mice did not.

Fenton said the results show a high dose of fish oil beyond what you'd normally get from a healthy diet has the potential to suppress the immune response to a virus or bacteria if you already have a compromised immune system
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Plus, what dosage did they use.

Nothing is proven in science btw, only disproved (at best).

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In contrast, all scientific knowledge is tentative and provisional, and nothing is final. There is no such thing as final proven knowledge in science.
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The_Old_Guy said:
Huge doses of fish oil is insane - proven to be detrimental to the immune system. 2-3g/day *or* 15-20g once a week (7g-10g 2x week) is all you need.
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I think calling it insane is slightly too far in the other direction. And I wouldn't say it is proven from the research I've seen. I'd say the evidence is incomplete at best. There are studies showing it improves immunity, others showing it may be detrimental (usually in people with issues already) and a heap of anectodal observations in the medical field that say chronic illness outcomes are improved with fish oil consumption.

Also, the evidence that it "damages immunity" seem to also apply to low doses of fish oils, not just large doses.

I just think it's more complex than something being good or bad for you. A lot of times people jump on something like fish oil being good for you and then apply, "If a little is good, more is better" logic and never consider the downsides - so you're doing the hard work and presenting the other side of the coin and I don't want you to get me wrong.

What is known is that doses over 4 grams a day of fish oil CAN reduce clotting and thus increase bleeding. Surgery, warfarin users, etc. need to be aware of this as you pointed out.
 
HIT4ME said:
What is known is that doses over 4 grams a day of fish oil CAN reduce clotting and thus increase bleeding. Surgery, warfarin users, etc. need to be aware of this as you pointed out.
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Don't forget suddenly finding yourself in a bad car accident or falling off of your roof. Doctor: "Why is this guy f'n bleeding so much!?" Point of diminishing returns - go get your lipids tested - if they are in range with high HDL, what more do you want?
 
The_Old_Guy said:
Don't forget suddenly finding yourself in a bad car accident or falling off of your roof. Doctor: "Why is this guy f'n bleeding so much!?" Point of diminishing returns - go get your lipids tested - if they are in range with high HDL, what more do you want?
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Yeah...Not a bad point.

Keep in mind...I am kind of in between. I don't totally discount it because I think a lot of us have n-3 and n-6 ratios that are way out and high doses for a temporary period may have benefit in correcting that. Also, doses over 20 g/day have been shown to improve mental health issues like depression.

Still, while I think saying that using 30-50 g a day is insane may be too far, I will agree that using 30-50 g 365 days of the year is probably darned close to insane.

I mega dose lots of stuff for experimental purposes and have done so with n-3's. For me I think 5-10 g is probably a good spot depending on my diet. I haven't taken any fish oil in maybe 6 months now though too...
 
When all of you mention "20-30 grams" of fish oil, or "5-10" grams, or whatever, do you actually mean grams of combined EPA/DHA, or just total grams of fat from fish (oil), which could be far larger than the combined EPA/DHA, correct?
 
GreenMachineX said:
When all of you mention "20-30 grams" of fish oil, or "5-10" grams, or whatever, do you actually mean grams of combined EPA/DHA, or just total grams of fat from fish (oil), which could be far larger than the combined EPA/DHA, correct?
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I mean combined DHA/EPA, not "other" or "total" fat.

Here's two fairly recent layman breakdowns on high dose Omega-3: Google Suppversity High Dose Fish Oil for stuff going back further, peroxide levels, etc... (Note: I don't consider 3g/day "high dose")

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GreenMachineX said:
When all of you mention "20-30 grams" of fish oil, or "5-10" grams, or whatever, do you actually mean grams of combined EPA/DHA, or just total grams of fat from fish (oil), which could be far larger than the combined EPA/DHA, correct?
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I guess I'm talking kind of both, but mostly total fish oil. I tend to take fish oils which have at least 50% EPA/DHA but usually I go for 70-75% EPA/DHA content. So if I'm saying 50 grams, that could be as high as 37.5 g combined EPA/DHA. 10 grams is 6-7.5 g combined usually, again depending on which product I bought (gotta hit sales).

The_Old_Guy said:
I mean combined DHA/EPA, not "other" or "total" fat.

Here's two fairly recent layman breakdowns on high dose Omega-3: Google Suppversity High Dose Fish Oil for stuff going back further, peroxide levels, etc... (Note: I don't consider 3g/day "high dose")

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Good links - but read my original post in this thread about variation and compare it to the bottom line in the suppversity article you link to first - good and bad are moving targets and not a constant. I am a BIG believer that dramatic changes in diet cause the body to adapt, utilize unused pathways, and adjust. And that's how our bodies are SUPPOSED to work. We aren't designed to just magically have a constant supply of ANY nutrient, we are designed to have periods of plenty, enough, and not enough. In this light, we have multiple pathways to achieve a goal, and I think part of the problem with modern society is we over-utilize certain pathways and under-utilize others and there is no adaptation.

For instance, we tend to eat a ton of sugar and corn products, which means we only use that pathway. Unless someone purposely avoids these foods, they will NEVER see ketosis in modern society. They will over utilize one pathway and never use another. Then we wonder why type 2 diabetes is running rampant. And then there's the link to dementia/alzheimers and diabetes - and we have evidence that ketones often seem to slow the progression of AD/Dementia. Maybe because suddenly you're making it easier to utilize a pathway that hasn't been used in years. That pathway is rusty and maybe not useable anymore without help, and the pathway that has been over used needs road repairs because the pavement is falling apart.

In that light, I think using high doses of n-3's for a short period may have some benefits...not using any at all for a period may also have some benefits, and being more moderate most of the time is a good idea.
 
I've been taking fish oil for years now, hopefully it's been beneficial to my health. That's all I have to share, thanks!
 
Ray Donovan said:
I can't say for sure if fish oil helps me in any way so I'll be taking a break once I finish my bottle.

Lyle McDonald says that fish oil is more readily used for energy and less likely to be stored as fat compared to other fat sources.

There's also good reason to eat a diet high in good fats like fish oil; all of your cell's phospholipid bi-layers are made of fat and fish oil is more free-flowing from what I've read. So yes, you are what you eat, and it can take a while (years) for any drastic dietary fat changes to replace what's already in your body.
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Even if fish oil was readily used as a fuel, that simply replaces other fuel sources which themselves can contribute to adiposity.

Plus weight loss/ gain cannot be viewed in such black and white terms. It is a constant dynamic with total Calorie intake determining which side you end up on
 
Justlooking5 said:
Are you referring to this mice study or something else?




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Plus, what dosage did they use.

Nothing is proven in science btw, only disproved (at best).

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Yessss!!!!

Exactly this. There is no proof is science, just evidence used to disprove the null
 
Ray Donovan said:
So what is the optimum ratio of fat intake for a healthy person?

Gotta feel bad for the Eskimos and grizzly bears during salmon season, their health must decline due to all the fish oils.
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Grizzly bear isnt a human, at all. But I'm sure you knew that. My dogs eat raw chicken necks but you won't see me doing that simply because it works for them.

You might also be surprised to know that inuit have a very high prevelance of heart disease than people tend to let on about. Yes their diet has changed somewhat, but remember that just because someone does something and doesn't die, that doesn't make it optimal.
 
GreenMachineX said:
When all of you mention "20-30 grams" of fish oil, or "5-10" grams, or whatever, do you actually mean grams of combined EPA/DHA, or just total grams of fat from fish (oil), which could be far larger than the combined EPA/DHA, correct?
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In my case I am only referring to total fish oil amount by 20-30g, DHA/EPA will be less than that.
 
Jiigzz said:
Grizzly bear isnt a human, at all. But I'm sure you knew that. My dogs eat raw chicken necks but you won't see me doing that simply because it works for them.

You might also be surprised to know that inuit have a very high prevelance of heart disease than people tend to let on about. Yes their diet has changed somewhat, but remember that just because someone does something and doesn't die, that doesn't make it optimal.
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eskimo's also use seal fat as a dipping sauce, lol.
 
I'll update to say that I'm going to be sticking with about 10-15g/day in part because of cost, as I don't want to spend 60+ per month on fish oil, though I may continue to experiment and see if there's any noticeable difference between say 15g and 30g/day. I do still think I get better gains and have better pumps on >10g per day but we'll see.
 
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