Brandinooooo
Well-known member
After my test and 1-andro cycle last summer, I ran a full panel a couple weeks after my pct. It came back at 500 for total. I posted it on here in that log.
Anyone here have optimal (>5-700 ng/dl) test levels after multiple steroid cycles?
- Thread starter Justlooking5
- Start date
Spurfy
Active member
Former Abusers of Anabolic Androgenic Steroids Exhibit Decreased Testosterone Levels and Hypogonadal Symptoms Years after Cessation: A Case-Control Study
Abstract
Aims
Abuse of anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS) is highly prevalent among male recreational athletes. The objective of this study was to investigate the impact of AAS abuse on reproductive hormone levels and symptoms suggestive of hypogonadism in current and former AAS abusers.
Methods
This study had a cross-sectional case-control design and involved 37 current AAS abusers, 33 former AAS abusers (mean (95%CI) elapsed duration since AAS cessation: 2.5 (1.7; 3.7) years) and 30 healthy control participants. All participants were aged 18–50 years and were involved in recreational strength training. Reproductive hormones (FSH, LH, testosterone, inhibin B and anti-Müllerian hormone (AMH)) were measured using morning blood samples. Symptoms of hypogonadism (depressive symptoms, fatigue, decreased libido and erectile dysfunction) were recorded systematically.
Results
Former AAS abusers exhibited significantly lower median (25th –75th percentiles) total and free testosterone levels than control participants (total testosterone: 14.4 (11.9–17.7) nmol/l vs. 18.8 (16.6–22.0) nmol/l) (P < 0.01). Overall, 27.2% (13.3; 45.5) of former AAS abusers exhibited plasma total testosterone levels below the lower reference limit (12.1 nmol/l) whereas no control participants exhibited testosterone below this limit (P < 0.01). Gonadotropins were significantly suppressed, and inhibin B and AMH were significantly decreased in current AAS abusers compared with former AAS abusers and control participants (P < 0.01). The group of former AAS abusers had higher proportions of participants with depressive symptoms ((24.2%) (11.1; 42.2)), erectile dysfunction ((27.3%) (13.3; 45.6)) and decreased libido ((40.1%) (23.2; 57.0)) than the other two groups (trend analyses: P < 0.05).
Conclusions
Former AAS abusers exhibited significantly lower plasma testosterone levels and higher frequencies of symptoms suggestive of hypogonadism than healthy control participants years after AAS cessation. Current AAS abusers exhibited severely decreased AMH and inhibin B indicative of impaired spermatogenesis."
And the kicker... "We noted a high proportion of former AAS abusers exhibiting symptoms suggestive of functional hypogonadism. We did not observe any associations between these symptoms and reproductive hormone levels."
Here's the full text: Invalid Link Removed
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Spurfy
Active member
I am absolutely convinced that all 19-nor AAS cause irreversible testicular damage, and that there are only three AAS agents that absolutely do not cause any long-term testicular damage:
testosterone in doses at or less than 300 mg/week
oxandrolone (Anavar)
mesterolone (Proviron)
testosterone in doses at or less than 300 mg/week
oxandrolone (Anavar)
mesterolone (Proviron)
rtmilburn
Well-known member
I might be high but I can still read. I'm not sure about you self. There are some intriguing info in this that I do believe have a valid point in this study ie the mortality rate. There is so much missing info. No treatment was mentioned. Didn't say if those abusers used a pct, etc.
rtmilburn
Well-known member
I won't necessarily disagree there but I'm convinced it does either I am more on the fence there. What I'm saying will make more sense when I write in depth. As I said I definitely could be wrong although things are as one dimensional as we make them. I'm would be more convinced that hcg use causes permanent suppression
rtmilburn
Well-known member
Wait you have dick
mmorso
Well-known member
Had, as the data I submitted indicates
rtmilburn
Well-known member
News to me! So what have I been putting my dick in? Your dick that's now inside out? Not that it will stop me but....
rtmilburn
Well-known member
That study is like we have 37 cancer patients and we didn't treat them and over an elasped time period 33 of them died.
Movin_weight
Active member
Anyone here have optimal (>5-700 ng/dl) test levels after multiple steroid cy...
**** my long drawn out story... truth is yeah AAS can mess up your hpta lol...
Mine was messed from my first cycle
At age 19 and never the same... granted it was original AX superdrol in 05 and al we used was novedexXT for pct back then.
All my friends were ****ed by early 2000's designers and I'm on hrt now (never better).
I'm 30 now and realize orals are the the main culprit for most issues...lipids, side effects, blood-pressure... injections cause much less.
20 weeks on 300mg of test does more than any 4-week oral cycle
To each there own.
**** my long drawn out story... truth is yeah AAS can mess up your hpta lol...
Mine was messed from my first cycle
At age 19 and never the same... granted it was original AX superdrol in 05 and al we used was novedexXT for pct back then.
All my friends were ****ed by early 2000's designers and I'm on hrt now (never better).
I'm 30 now and realize orals are the the main culprit for most issues...lipids, side effects, blood-pressure... injections cause much less.
20 weeks on 300mg of test does more than any 4-week oral cycle
To each there own.
bighulksmash
Legend
Can I use this in my class to explain why ds as ph are banned ?
rtmilburn
Well-known member
On a serious note you teach? Good for you I couldn't do that but I hate people so. But I thought you did secret awesome computer hacking/prevent hacking types stuff but in like a James Bond fashion(ok that last one might have been in my head)?
bighulksmash
Legend
No I do hunt down people who download bad things and make sure I catch them
. I don't join the bust anymore because I used excessive force to many times .
Was jokin about the teaching . Also I'm on paid leave for 2 weekz so suck it
rtmilburn
Well-known member
Sounds cool yet nerdy so I like
bighulksmash
Legend
Reverse meterpreter shell fully encoded to bypass av equipped with a nop sled and trojan downloader....
bighulksmash
Legend
Any .php upload on any port can't resist my coding
ChocolateClen
Well-known member
Wonder if you're better than the Asian kid that hacked my schools servers....
bighulksmash
Legend
#1 hacking is not magic
#2 movies are full of ****
#3 hacking is simply learning to communicate with a lonely robot
#4 hope that robot is female but don't assume gender lord knows
#5 scenario is this . Your blocking the door I ask you to open it . your brain renders a response and you politely open the door .
Now if your told not to open the door then I need to convince you why I need that door open .... learn how to manipulate the robot by becoming the robot -Neo
#2 movies are full of ****
#3 hacking is simply learning to communicate with a lonely robot
#4 hope that robot is female but don't assume gender lord knows
#5 scenario is this . Your blocking the door I ask you to open it . your brain renders a response and you politely open the door .
Now if your told not to open the door then I need to convince you why I need that door open .... learn how to manipulate the robot by becoming the robot -Neo
ChocolateClen
Well-known member
Makes it sound easy, meanwhile I can't even use command prompt :lol:
rtmilburn
Well-known member
That's because you don't the language but neither do iMakes it sound easy, meanwhile I can't even use command prompt
Justlooking5
Active member
rtmilburn I'm not sure what you're talking about regarding the posted studies.
Anyway, multiple studies posted in this thread suggest that AAS use permanently downregulates testosterone production in a high proportion of former users, even after extended time off.
This has certainly been my experience. The general wisdom on forums is that if you don't stay on too long, and use proper PCT, you are more likely to fully recover your natural production than not.
I think it may be more likely that even if you cycle and use proper PCT, you are more likely than not (though not guaranteed) to have some degree of permanent suppression.
I think if I had known this back then I would have either abstained from gear or just done cycles of light amounts of test with anavar.
Anyway, multiple studies posted in this thread suggest that AAS use permanently downregulates testosterone production in a high proportion of former users, even after extended time off.
This has certainly been my experience. The general wisdom on forums is that if you don't stay on too long, and use proper PCT, you are more likely to fully recover your natural production than not.
I think it may be more likely that even if you cycle and use proper PCT, you are more likely than not (though not guaranteed) to have some degree of permanent suppression.
I think if I had known this back then I would have either abstained from gear or just done cycles of light amounts of test with anavar.
bighulksmash
Legend
Net user add was my fav
And then
Shutdown -i 15 killed every computer in the lab.
bighulksmash
Legend
I read this before . Seems to be conflicting story's out there.
Nac
Well-known member
Youd be the exception to the rule, then.
I guarantee, 99.97849% of guys if told about these risks would still be "meh not me Ill be fine, GAINZ."
How do I know this? Cos we see it
every
single
day.
Justlooking5
Active member
I know what you're saying and given the amount of effort most of us put in and how motivated we are to make progress in the gym, the temptation to use gear and rationalize the potential consequences is enormous.
In truth, my cycles were some of the best times of my life, making huge progress and I was very dedicated to bodybuilding in my early 20s.
However, at 34 now I can say that unless I'm able to fix my levels somehow, it has not been worth the day to day diminished quality of life and effects on mood, libido, sexual function, muscle growth, etc.
At best if I could go back, I would have avoided deca completely, and just done as I mentioned a couple cycles of oxandrolone per year with pre and post bloodwork. I got great results from anavar actually.
Anyway, I was browsing ergo log and found a new study on this issue saying essentially the same thing as the others, that suppression occurs in a high number of ex-AAS users.
Interestingly, we haven't seen ANY study showing that ex-AAS users have equal or better (given most are going to be athletes) testosterone levels than non-users. That is also telling I think, even though we know they would probably be loathe to publish anything showing AAS in a positive light.
Invalid Link Removed "Half of Ex-Steroid Users are Hypogonadal"
Justlooking5
Active member
To me, for most users, there is literally no reason whatsoever to run deca. I will note that of the 4 main cycles I did (not counting several oxandrolone cycles), one was with 400mg and another with 650mg/week deca. I first started having erectile issues after the first cycle.
My overall favorite cycle did not include deca, and was simply 850mg test enanthate for about 8 weeks. My next best cycle besides the first was test e, dbol and turinabol. I made the fewest gains on my cycle of 650mg deca, 600mg eq, 125mg test/ week (I was trying to minimize hairloss), and also got minor gyno. Deca doesn't do much that other compounds can't do better and with fewer sides IMO.
Spurfy
Active member
This, 100%.
In addition to *MASSIVE* strength gains, I've experienced potently increased collagen synthesis and strengthened tendons and ligaments, along with an "age reversing" effect on my skin and especially face, using just 300 mg Test E/C per week with 20 mg Anavar per day, for 8 weeks.
From a cost-benefit perspective, I don't think there's really any purpose for using any other compounds (Proviron excepted).
Spurfy
Active member
Dianabol probably damages Leydig cells, so I have to assume that tbol does as well.
That said, I have been known to use light cycles of dbol of 15-20 mg/day for 6-8 weeks along with test.
These days, though, I only use the three I mentioned (test, Anavar, Proviron). Proviron probably has a net beneficial effect on the testes.
As to HPG-axis dysfunction? Who knows... Take toremifene on cycle and you'll probably be fine.
mmorso
Well-known member
Do you by chance have any studies on using torem on cycle?
hardknock
Well-known member
How long were you on clomid and at what dosage when you were sitting in the 1000s?
Spurfy
Active member
Nope. These studies don't exist. There is a study on clomid and exogenous T, dig it up if you're curious.
I have bloodwork, but I'm not posting it.
If people can't think outside of the box, then they don't deserve to benefit from *my* outside of the box thinking. All I say is, try it... Go on cycle, take torem 60 mg/day, and get LH/FSH checked a month in. I think you'll be very pleasantly surprised. Or don't. I really don't care either way.
Justlooking5
Active member
I can give you a more detailed answer once I have a chance to review my med records but I know my urologist had me on clomid 25mg/day with 5 sequential days off per month. I think I was on for 1+ months at a time. It boosted my levels fairly quickly IIRC. However the pattern was as follows (these are rough but basically accurate numbers from memory):
1/2011: T > 1,000 on clomid. Stop clomid 1/2011
4/2011: T 611 off clomid since 1/2011, taking herbal (stinging nettle?), unclear if any benefit from herbal
6/2011: T ~440
11/2011: T ~390
Vitamin D: 35
So essentially, clomid did boost my Test over 1,000 rapidly and reliably at 25mg/day, but it always fell slowly back to baseline levels every time. Pretty frustrating really. And I took course of clomid in later 2010, early 2011, and 2012.
My most recent test level in early March 2017 was 369, despite high vitamin d intake (42 ng/ml), probiotics, IF, brazil nuts, etc.
I have an appointment with the same urologist soon to discuss options. In the meantime I'm trying herbals (KSM-66 etc.), Zinc picolinate, direct sun exposure (bright light increases LH), coconut oil, and will be getting Total, Free, Estro, LH and maybe prolactin done to see if any of the herbals etc. make a difference.
I plan to add nettle too as the only time my levels were >400 while off clomid for a reasonable period of time was when they measured at 611 and I think I was taking nettle at that time. Now that I think about it, I also remember that after my initial T/free T test, I took stinging nettle (I think Activate was big then) and my free T was higher in the followup test.
Also thinking about trying Fadogia (and LJ100 though I don't always like how I feel on it).
Spurfy
Active member
I suspect that the reason Clomid doesn't "stick" is continued chemical insult from xenoestrogens, which Clomid very reliably blocks.
mmorso
Well-known member
Huh I'll run torem on cycle the
ericos_bob
Active member
Reading these studies I have fallen in the trap of reading only what i want to hear. The common consensus on forums having been you are more likely to recover fully from a cycle with adequate pct than not. As a result cutting my trest/halo cycle short. Hard to resist temptation but honestly I'll keep it bottled up a few more years yet. Back to slow, safe progress lol.
hardknock
Well-known member
Reason why I asked was because back in the "day" when I used, I would take clomid for 60 days along with 8 weeks of activate and my test levels would usually stay >800 for up to 12 months and generally at least 12 months. I haven't used in well over 9 years and my levels usually sit around 500-560 now a day at ~40 yrs of age. I will say, for me at least, genetics has played a solid role.
mmorso
Well-known member
Yeah I'm considering changing my upcoming cycle plans to 8wks of test and var with torem on cycle
Actually, that's what I'm gonna do, provided I can cycle after I get bloods done this week
hardknock
Well-known member
Agreed. At the end of the day, slow and steady will win the race albeit not in extraordinary fashion.
Justlooking5
Active member
I truly wish it were that simple, however I currently make a point to avoid BPA, phalates, parabens, etc. in both food and household products. I even use fluoride and SLS free toothpaste, and drink only from glass or ceramic (non-plastic) containers. My test still came back at 369. I think it's just an issue of my hypothalmus not producing GnRH and pituitary not producing enough LH due to permanent downregulation.
Justlooking5
Active member
Were you cycling injectable AAS or OTC products (designer steroids/sarms etc?)
How about 6+ months after PCT? Is your test still solid/high? Were you taking any test boosters currently? And what was your PCT if you don't mind my asking?
rtmilburn
Well-known member
I don't know what I think of torem on cycle. I do believe it can help maintain lh and fsh on cycle. But how much stress is that putting on they hypothalamus??? Also 100% agree to never use anything that shown to damage lyding cells. Like hcg but I can almost guarantee all hcg we buy is fake.
Justlooking5
Active member
Sounds like a combo of a roll of the dice based on how any individual's genetics will respond to supraphysiological dosages of AAS, and how well you do PCT/how much AAS you use etc... except at least according to the posted studies the chances of permanent suppression seem fairly high >50% of users possibly.
rtmilburn
Well-known member
I see you said your taking Brazil nuts I would stop those they have lots of toxins in them and may be some of the issue. Also we are looking at this from on testicular point of view. Think we all should be looking at optimising everything that hypothalamus has a role in(that we can). Use adrenal supports supps and thyriod, etc. Aiding it is overall work it has to do. I'll post more when I'm out of class
goodvibes
Well-known member
6 months later I'm cycling again (DS with trest) so I can't answer that. My blood work came about 4 weeks post pct. Simple clomid with a low dose AI like formestane towards the end. I always take natty/otc test boosters throughout PCT. Currently I'm taking MTEST for an 8 week run. So far still feeling alpha holding down PR type weight
Brandinooooo
Well-known member
Lmfao stop drawing pictures of me