Epistane, Trest, Super-11

To comment on shutdown from these things I did get my blood work back today. Testosterone = 50. Ouch. That is the bloody floor. Expected though, and as we've been talking about Trest is gonna do that.

Well I answered my question about continuing my Epistane further than the 6th week. AST = 213 / ALT = 302. Billirubin is good (1.0), so that's a good thing but it's obvious in week 5 here that the increase to 45 last week was not a great idea. The question is do I discontinue now, or finish up week 6 with 30mg Epistane. Also how much is from the TD Trest? I'm certain that it has a liver load, but is it AS bad as Epistane, especially since the dose I'm taking is pretty low. I don't have numbers from 2 week ago, but I "feel" like the increase to 45 is probably what did it. I'm leaning towards discontinue this week. Sigh. Felt like I was really getting the good results from it juuuust now.

So technical talk - I looked at a bunch of old posts, web doc stuff, and the like about high AST/ALT numbers. Basically what I keep hearing is that methylated orals will just do this to you and while the standard definition of drug induced hepatitis is ALT>AST and reference greater than 3x, if Billirubin hasn't shot up you're not killing yourself. Well that could be debatable. Regardless I'll be ending it next week and drop to 30mg today.....unless the consensus is to end now.

Just cause everyone's going to ask. TUDCA = 1000mg daily. Taken at 500AM/500PM. Gallon+ of water. No OTC painmeds, NO ALCOHOL. Urine isn't really that dark unless I forget to drink a lot of water like I did last week on one day and saw some pretty dark urine. I mean it's yellowish for the amount of water I'm pumping in there but not scary by any means. No other symptoms of liver issues from what I've read. No itching, coloring of the skin or eyes, no soreness or sensitivity when poked in that area, no changes in stool, etc... I have had more indigestion than normal, taking an antiacid each day, but I figured between a few caps of TUDCA and the Epistane that might happen just if my stomach didn't like them. And btw my stomach hates everything so indigestion is fairly common to me. I'll want to die if I eat a chilly dog for instance without an antiacid.

Also anymore than 1000mg of TUDCA would have been silly right? Or was I underdosing it (Kinda thought from what I read I was at the limit there).

Looks like I'll try something NON Methylated and possibly something injectable next time I think of a cycle. No reason to hit the liver like that again for a long time. (Sorry down there bud 'talks to liver').

My PCT plan is pretty straight forwards:
Clomid 50/50/50/50/25
Exemestane 12.5EOD first week just like I have been on cycle since it's likely a nasty rebound is on the way, then down to E3D for the duration of PCT.
Gonna keep the TUDCA in there the whole way through too 1G a day.

Any other suggestions? I'm not in a situation where I lack for chemical options to solve issues, but this is more of a less chemicals kind of problem. I'll test general liver panel ONLY 3 weeks through PCT to see how that's doing.


OK fire away.
 
That is like ... . Bizarre man, not what you normally read. I dunno think you got a bad batch? I mean that could happen, but with both forms at teh same time on your purchases? Not likely. Is it crazy old or anything like that?
 
sespress said:
That is like ... . Bizarre man, not what you normally read. I dunno think you got a bad batch? I mean that could happen, but with both forms at teh same time on your purchases? Not likely. Is it crazy old or anything like that?
Click to expand...
I bought the oral new from Nutriverse in the newest batch and the TD is from another board member because NV was still out when I needed it. So totally different batches. It's POSSIBLE the TD is bunk, since I didn't get it from a store. But the oral isn't working either...
 
habajaba said:
I bought the oral new from Nutriverse in the newest batch and the TD is from another board member because NV was still out when I needed it. So totally different batches. It's POSSIBLE the TD is bunk, since I didn't get it from a store. But the oral isn't working either...
Click to expand...
You may be the first person to have Trest taken out by shbg. Not really, but it's crazy you aren't feeling crap from it.

You have any feeling on the numbers I posted above? Liver and free testosterone?
 
sespress said:
You may be the first person to have Trest taken out by shbg. Not really, but it's crazy you aren't feeling crap from it.

You have any feeling on the numbers I posted above? Liver and free testosterone?
Click to expand...
Yeah. Reality is, our bodies are all different. Which is why there are so many prescriptions for the same issues. I'm still going to finish the bottles, just because I have them. But I'm not opening my other set.

Sorry on the numbers. I'm not the most knowledgeable here, for sure. That free test is scary low. I've only ever seen mine in the 200s on epi-andro. But I'm not testing mine anymore since I'm on TRT now. So I have no clue how trest would affect mine. As for liver, I have no clue what those numbers mean. Never had liver issues on regular panels and so I don't get it tested regularly. I think I drink just enough to build up my liver muscle without damaging it. So when I stop drinking and run PH, it's like no big deal :). If it was me, though, I'm one who'd rather kill a cycle than kill myself. So if anything is in a warning area, especially the liver, I'd prolly just call it quits and start regrouping and planning for next run.
 
That is strange.
You should feel something
You can read threads on this site and others discussing talking about the difference in strength.
Some will say it's not possible others say it is.
All I know is the stuff I have taken 50 mg would be serious ****
 
Cgkone said:
That is strange.
You should feel something
You can read threads on this site and others discussing talking about the difference in strength.
Some will say it's not possible others say it is.
All I know is the stuff I have taken 50 mg would be serious ****
Click to expand...
I personally don't doubt you at all. I just wonder how. I can think of 2 possibilities off the top of my head... The ugl versions of ment have additional compounds in them to make them seem even more effective. Like when drug dealers cut their stuff. Or... The OLUK version is underdosed. OLUK has been pretty reliable, right? So that would surprise me.
 
sespress said:
To comment on shutdown from these things I did get my blood work back today. Testosterone = 50. Ouch. That is the bloody floor. Expected though, and as we've been talking about Trest is gonna do that.

Well I answered my question about continuing my Epistane further than the 6th week. AST = 213 / ALT = 302. Billirubin is good (1.0), so that's a good thing but it's obvious in week 5 here that the increase to 45 last week was not a great idea. The question is do I discontinue now, or finish up week 6 with 30mg Epistane. Also how much is from the TD Trest? I'm certain that it has a liver load, but is it AS bad as Epistane, especially since the dose I'm taking is pretty low. I don't have numbers from 2 week ago, but I "feel" like the increase to 45 is probably what did it. I'm leaning towards discontinue this week. Sigh. Felt like I was really getting the good results from it juuuust now.

So technical talk - I looked at a bunch of old posts, web doc stuff, and the like about high AST/ALT numbers. Basically what I keep hearing is that methylated orals will just do this to you and while the standard definition of drug induced hepatitis is ALT>AST and reference greater than 3x, if Billirubin hasn't shot up you're not killing yourself. Well that could be debatable. Regardless I'll be ending it next week and drop to 30mg today.....unless the consensus is to end now.

Just cause everyone's going to ask. TUDCA = 1000mg daily. Taken at 500AM/500PM. Gallon+ of water. No OTC painmeds, NO ALCOHOL. Urine isn't really that dark unless I forget to drink a lot of water like I did last week on one day and saw some pretty dark urine. I mean it's yellowish for the amount of water I'm pumping in there but not scary by any means. No other symptoms of liver issues from what I've read. No itching, coloring of the skin or eyes, no soreness or sensitivity when poked in that area, no changes in stool, etc... I have had more indigestion than normal, taking an antiacid each day, but I figured between a few caps of TUDCA and the Epistane that might happen just if my stomach didn't like them. And btw my stomach hates everything so indigestion is fairly common to me. I'll want to die if I eat a chilly dog for instance without an antiacid.

Also anymore than 1000mg of TUDCA would have been silly right? Or was I underdosing it (Kinda thought from what I read I was at the limit there).

Looks like I'll try something NON Methylated and possibly something injectable next time I think of a cycle. No reason to hit the liver like that again for a long time. (Sorry down there bud 'talks to liver').

My PCT plan is pretty straight forwards:
Clomid 50/50/50/50/25
Exemestane 12.5EOD first week just like I have been on cycle since it's likely a nasty rebound is on the way, then down to E3D for the duration of PCT.
Gonna keep the TUDCA in there the whole way through too 1G a day.

Any other suggestions? I'm not in a situation where I lack for chemical options to solve issues, but this is more of a less chemicals kind of problem. I'll test general liver panel ONLY 3 weeks through PCT to see how that's doing.


OK fire away.
Click to expand...
I wonder how rough your pct is gunna be.
Good for you for getting bloods done.
I'm not sure what's numbers are deep danger zone.
Since you don't know how fast Your numbers rise your basically guessing.
But are you gunna destroy your liver in an extra week.........Nope your not.
But I'm no doctor.
 
*sigh*

OUK is trestolone, an active steroid.

Grimm "ment" is mentabolan, the prohormone to trestolone.

The two are different compounds. Check out old threads at PHF, they discuss how for some the ph has a stronger effect than trest itself. Could be due to all the conversions, who knows.
 
Nac said:
*sigh*

OUK is trestolone, an active steroid.

Grimm "ment" is mentabolan, the prohormone to trestolone.

The two are different compounds. Check out old threads at PHF, they discuss how for some the ph has a stronger effect than trest itself. Could be due to all the conversions, who knows.
Click to expand...
Shame on me. Somehow, I did not know that. Thanks Nac.
 
habajaba said:
I personally don't doubt you at all. I just wonder how. I can think of 2 possibilities off the top of my head... The ugl versions of ment have additional compounds in them to make them seem even more effective. Like when drug dealers cut their stuff. Or... The OLUK version is underdosed. OLUK has been pretty reliable, right? So that would surprise me.
Click to expand...
I think one is the actual hormone and one is hopping to convert to the hormone.
I've actually asked on here before and a couple people New kinda why.
I can't articulate the reason back very well.
 
Nac said:
*sigh*

OUK is trestolone, an active steroid.

Grimm "ment" is mentabolan, the prohormone to trestolone.

The two are different compounds. Check out old threads at PHF, they discuss how for some the ph has a stronger effect than trest itself. Could be due to all the conversions, who knows.
Click to expand...
Thanks homie.
 
Just to be absolutely clear, Im not making any claims as to the purity of any company's product. Im merely clarifying a couple of key differences in regards to compounds (ie whats ON the bottle/label, not necessarily whats IN the bottle).
 
Cgkone said:
Invalid Link Removed
Click to expand...

Cgkone said:
I think your wrong
Click to expand...

Dude, youre letting the name of a product (Grimms "ment") determine what the actual compound is. Thatd be like saying Hitechs new version of Superdrol is the same compound as the OG.

Again:

MENT is the pharma name for trestolone.

Mentabolan is the prohormone to trestolone.

Grimm labs calling a mentabolan product "MENT" is just confusing things. If I call my dog "Cat", does that make my dog an actual cat?
 
Nac said:
Dude, youre letting the name of a product (Grimms "ment") determine what the actual compound is. Thatd be like saying Hitechs new version of Superdrol is the same compound as the OG.

Again:

MENT is the pharma name for trestolone.

Mentabolan is the prohormone to trestolone.

Grimm labs calling a mentabolan product "MENT" is just confusing things.
Click to expand...
So does it convert to anything else?
 
Cgkone said:
So does it convert to anything else?
Click to expand...

To be honest I havent looked much further into mentabolan, other than very brief comments guys like Nostrum and Patrick Arnold have said on it. Ive only seen studies for MENT (trestolone!), but none describing the pharmacokinetics of mentabolan (the prohormone!)
 
I think you got it backwards.
Sounds like 10 mg >50 mg can only make sense if the 50 mg is weaker.
So how can 10mg convert into 50 mg.
I know that m14add is the ph to dbol but feels like your on boldenone.
But since we are talking about the effective feeling of being on (trest or ment) .
I've heard explained 3 or 4 different ways and I'm just being lazy right now and don't feel like researching
 
I havent read anything to clearly suggest Ive got it backwards; Ive based my beliefs here on what others I trust and studies have said. And nomenclature.
 
7a methyl estre... = mentabolan

7a methyl 19nor... = trestolone

The latter has a couple of other nomenclature synonyms, one of which is the compound on the label of OUK trest...but NOT the Grim ment.
 
Nostrum claims that the two compounds can/will convert back and forth into one another, so trying to accurately compare each compounds strength in a "vs" contest is likely futile.

We'd prolly need elucidation via an appropriate study to really come to any decent conclusions.
 
Nac said:
Dude, youre letting the name of a product (Grimms "ment") determine what the actual compound is. Thatd be like saying Hitechs new version of Superdrol is the same compound as the OG.

Again:

MENT is the pharma name for trestolone.

Mentabolan is the prohormone to trestolone.

Grimm labs calling a mentabolan product "MENT" is just confusing things. If I call my dog "Cat", does that make my dog an actual cat?
Click to expand...
You know there is a DMZ named product out right now that's actually like a bunch of Andro's, so yeah the marketing department strikes again. Bastards.
 
Cgkone said:
I wonder how rough your pct is gunna be.
Good for you for getting bloods done.
I'm not sure what's numbers are deep danger zone.
Since you don't know how fast Your numbers rise your basically guessing.
But are you gunna destroy your liver in an extra week.........Nope your not.
But I'm no doctor.
Click to expand...
Yeah apparently danger zone is when billirubin bounces up also, that's like bad bad, but apparently also you'd feel it when that happens. Also apparently you don't want to get to that point.
 
Cgkone said:
I wonder how rough your pct is gunna be.
Good for you for getting bloods done.
I'm not sure what's numbers are deep danger zone.
Since you don't know how fast Your numbers rise your basically guessing.
But are you gunna destroy your liver in an extra week.........Nope your not.
But I'm no doctor.
Click to expand...
Probably my pct is going to suck. Lol. I'm expecting a tougher ride than 4 andro suppression that's for sure. You think I should change anything on that plan of mine?
 
Nac said:
*sigh*

OUK is trestolone, an active steroid.

Grimm "ment" is mentabolan, the prohormone to trestolone.

The two are different compounds. Check out old threads at PHF, they discuss how for some the ph has a stronger effect than trest itself. Could be due to all the conversions, who knows.
Click to expand...
Nac welcome to my really terrible log! It's the first I've done so pardon the dust. so to speak.

Thank you for the input, I knew not there was a Trest prohormone, but I suppose they've figured out how to use an enzyme pathway to produce anything they want these days.

I'm gonna keep bugging everyone:. You think that blood work looks real bad? Should I just toss in the towel?
 
I thought OL trest was the active steroid trestolone

Anyway, if you got HCG sespress, I'd blast it last week or so on cycle and during pct. it will only help the recovery

Also, if you got Nolva use it too... just my .2
 
mmorso said:
I thought OL trest was the active steroid trestolone

Anyway, if you got HCG sespress, I'd blast it last week or so on cycle and during pct. it will only help the recovery

Also, if you got Nolva use it too... just my .2
Click to expand...
Yeah I've got 15000 IU in 3 ampules. What dose your recommend? I've also heard it's counter productive during PCT but great the last week or so of a cycle.
How do I not have atrophy? Crazy.

I have Nolva too. My go to was 25mg each but I hear all about how Nolva is more hepatotoxic so.. Thought I'd leave it out. Honestly though it can't be nearly as bad as what I'm on and it's a low dose of I split between them.
 
mmorso said:
I thought OL trest was the active steroid trestolone

Anyway, if you got HCG sespress, I'd blast it last week or so on cycle and during pct. it will only help the recovery

Also, if you got Nolva use it too... just my .2
Click to expand...
The ol Trest is the active I think is what nac showed us. There is a few ways to write it nomenclature wise.
 
sespress said:
Yeah I've got 15000 IU in 3 ampules. What dose your recommend? I've also heard it's counter productive during PCT but great the last week or so of a cycle.
How do I not have atrophy? Crazy.

I have Nolva too. My go to was 25mg each but I hear all about how Nolva is more hepatotoxic so.. Thought I'd leave it out. Honestly though it can't be nearly as bad as what I'm on and it's a low dose of I split between them.
Click to expand...

The hepatotoxicity of Nolva is negligible from my understanding... it lowers IGF which sucks but exemestane (and peptides) should increase your IGF levels higher than baseline anyway...

I don't know what the dosing protocol is for HCG. I've never ran it and was planning on getting some for my test cycle I'm running this fall. I believe 500ui x2 a week was standard dosing but don't hold me to that.

Idk what you've heard about HCG being counterproductive during pct... I know it CAN desensitize leydig cells if blasted for too long (like throughout an entire 15wk AAS cycle).

Anyway, my standard pct is
Clomid 50/50/25/25
Nolva 20/20/10/10
Exem 12.5 e3d (all 4 weeks)

You've got your bases covered that way. From what I've been told, not everyone responds to clomid and some don't respond to Nolva... this cancels out the possibility that one of the SERMS won't restart your HPTA.

If I where you, I'd dose the exem eod rather than e3d just to play it safe considering your higher BF% and the bloating issues you've had on cycle... epistane is also known for causing rebound gyno in some cases

With all of this, please keep in mind that I'm not an expert by any means and am on this board to learn. So I may have some sh1t wrong
 
Theres differing schools of thought with hcg. Scally has protocols that blast it initially, but personally I prefer Crisler's more modest approach. He'll only prescribe it in a restart scenario; during PCT though, no way, its supressive. So, as per Crisler, its typically "best" used on-cycle leading up to PCT especially.
 
Nac said:
Theres differing schools of thought with hcg. Scally has protocols that blast it initially, but personally I prefer Crisler's more modest approach. He'll only prescribe it in a restart scenario; during PCT though, no way, its supressive. So, as per Crisler, its typically "best" used on-cycle leading up to PCT especially.
Click to expand...
I had read like 1000-1500iu over a week, for the last two weeks or three weeks of a cycle. OR 250-500 throughout the cycle. I heard someone suggest the last day before PCT to take a mega dose... Dunno about that​. That dude got shot down hard next few posts. I heard the same about PCT. It's gonna be after cycle them it needs to be after PCT in a reboot attempt if you don't come back.

Sorry I left it this long. Could have been better to dose throughout. Well live and learn. I see it mentioned to run Nolva with it even in cycle? That seems wrong. Won't my AI take care of any estrogen levels? It's only simulating the test cells right?

Well to get started I mixed up the 1500iu vial and took 300 subQ in the belly (god I hate those). I've got two weeks left if I continue for weeks 7 and three left if I go to 8. I think I'm gonna do one more panel in two weeks to see what effect it had in that number and how the liver is holding up.

Cheers!
 
Nac said:
Nostrum claims that the two compounds can/will convert back and forth into one another, so trying to accurately compare each compounds strength in a "vs" contest is likely futile.

We'd prolly need elucidation via an appropriate study to really come to any decent conclusions.
Click to expand...
You see the OL stuff is methyl ester?
 
I just don't think Nac has good enough understanding on the drug to give a sigh.
Actually I know he don't.
If you have an answer that clarifies by all means inject it.
But that OL label says methyl ester justike the reaper labs label does.
That 17B makes it 5xs weaker makes zero sense (sigh)
 
mmorso said:
By the way, this is the best way to store TDs...
Click to expand...

That's cool. I remember reading someone (you?) talking about that container. I love learning about new stuff - I never knew about those. I may print your picture and take it to some drug stores to see if they have empty ones for sale - thanks!
 
Cgkone said:
The difference is the 17B (phone won't do that sign)
So that trest say 19nor?
Click to expand...
Trestolone synonyms
SynonymsMENT; 7α-Methylnandrolone; 7α-methyl-19-nortestosterone; 17β-hydroxy-7α-methylestr-4-en-3-one

Mentabolan synonyms:
Synonyms7α-Methyl-19-norandrost-4-ene-3,17-dione; 7α-Methylestr-4-ene-3,17-dione; MENT dione; Trestione; Mentabolan


Different.
From the wiki in mentabolan:
7α-Methyl-19-norandrostenedione (MENT dione), or 7α-methyl-19-norandrost-4-ene-3,17-dione, also known as trestione, as well as 7α-methylestr-4-ene-3,17-dione, is a synthetic anabolic-androgenic steroid (AAS) and a derivative of 19-nortestosterone (nandrolone).[1][2] It may act as a prohormone of trestolone (7α-methyl-19-nortestosterone; MENT).[1][2] MENT dione has been sold on the Internet under the name Mentabolan as a "dietary supplement".[1][2]
 
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