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Amazing Clomid results

My hypothesis is that SERMs act partially by inhibiting the binding of xenoestrogens, and thus produce a much more robust effect on testosterone than would be predicted strictly based on a structure-function analysis.

Xenoestrogens significantly disrupt estrogen signalling by acting at the ER-alpha receptor (1) in ways that differ even from endogenous estrogens,SERMs act -- among other ways -- by blocking ER-alpha, thus preventing the binding of toxic xenoestrogens.

SERMs, and specifically toremifene, have been shown to prevent the occurrence of prostate cancer. (2) Prostate cancer can be specifically driven by xenoestrogens, and BPA has been shown to do this (3). Currently, there is no real hypothesis on why toremifene is effective in preventing prostate cancer -- I propose it works by inhibiting the binding of BPA and other xenoestrogens to receptors in the prostate.


1. Steroids. 2014 Mar; 81: 36–42.
2. J Urol. 2006 Sep;176(3):965-70; discussion 970-1.
3. Cancer Res. 2005 Jan 1;65(1):54-65.
 
muchstronger2 said:
For all your crackheads out there considering anabolics like I did, I got some news:

I was tested Nov 16 with Total tests levels of 570 ng/dl.

I thought it was pretty low, considered self TRTing, but went for Clomid instead.

I have been taking 12.5mg a week (yes, only 1/4 pill a week) ever since until today.

Tested for total test last week: came back at 1154ng/dl.

That's the only addition I've made since starting clomid.

I'm blown away
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Without multiple test before and after the clomid this doesn't mean much of anything, I've had my labs show as low as 500's up to 900's over the course of a month or 2. There's too many variables
 
Bunshichi said:
The protecting effects should be the same with or without exogenous Testosterone. However the effects on the balls should be minimal if there at all.
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Agree on point 1. Disagree on point 2. SERMs maintain HPG-axis and testicular function, even on exogenous T.
 
Spurfy said:
Where did you get your PhD in pharmacology?
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I have done bloods while on Clomid, and i say for sure this topic is horse****.

My test went from 250 to 330. Not to mention it ****ed up my thyroid hormonal levels pretty good. It was excessively high.
 
Ah, the good ole "infer universality from anecdote"; or, "my experience defines all else."
 
bruno.camilo said:
I have done bloods while on Clomid, and i say for sure this topic is horse****.

My test went from 250 to 330. Not to mention it ****ed up my thyroid hormonal levels pretty good. It was excessively high.
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Okay. So you are primary hypogonadal -- your balls don't work. What does that have to do with anyone else?
 
You could probably come off of the clomid at any point and not have a sudden crash, which I fear many people experience after taking it at higher doses over a short period of time because they are not accounting for that E2 rise that's going along with the T. With the smaller doses you are mitigating the E2. Interesting results. I also posted a great TRT podcast link on my log Clomid as TRT + 5/3/1 Log that justhere4comm mentioned
 
ericos_bob said:
Kills my sex drive. Good stuff to take when you need to focus on things other than sex for a while otherwise I'll keep it for PCT. I'd never take it as an alternative to TRT for this reason alone. Lowering IGF1 levels don't help sell it either.
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That's why the lower doses are in fact better. Everyone does react differently though. It's only going to get your T so high, but you can shoot your E2 much higher by using a larger dose.
 
So with the proper dose of Clomid, you can reap the benefits of elevated T without the estrogenic sides? Or are they unavoidable?
 
mcc23 said:
So with the proper dose of Clomid, you can reap the benefits of elevated T without the estrogenic sides? Or are they unavoidable?
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Some guys will not be able to run clomid (at any effective dose) without also using an AI to reduce sides. And, just to be a real fuker, some guys will just have a sh1t time with clomid and feel crap no matter what.

I dunno what endos like Crisler/Shippen/etc do in such cases....but there certainly are such cases.
 
Nac said:
Some guys will not be able to run clomid (at any effective dose) without also using an AI to reduce sides. And, just to be a real fuker, some guys will just have a sh1t time with clomid and feel crap no matter what.

I dunno what endos like Crisler/Shippen/etc do in such cases....but there certainly are such cases.
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They have talks where they explain that on youtube. Sometimes it's an AI. Sometimes it's like with stuff I am taking, DIM and Grapeseed extract. Sometimes they have to walk away from it and try HcG. Can't make a blanket statement that this will work like X for all people, BUT, using the lowest effective dose gives the highest likely hood of diminished side effects.
 
I am curious if raising test via clomid, with everything else in check, will effect body composition in someone like myself who came in low at 269. That's why I figured I would do a log. Too soon to make any calls on that, but I am certainly not getting worse.
 
ryox82 said:
I am curious if raising test via clomid, with everything else in check, will effect body composition in someone like myself who came in low at 269. That's why I figured I would do a log. Too soon to make any calls on that, but I am certainly not getting worse.
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If you manage to get in the 500-600ng/dl range you'll notice a significant difference compared to how you feel and look at 269.
Then until 1200 you wouldn't feel a proportional difference, the progress curve is rather flat between 600 and 1200.



As far as estrogens are concerned, my results indicated they are exactly mid range, which surprises me for two reasons:

1) My test came back 25% above upper limit of the range. You would expect E2 to also be out of range to even things out.

2) I had read that Clomid skews the E2 reading during blood tests and makes the reading falsly high
 
12.5 to 25 eod, that raises test plenty in hypogonadal men. You should be able to run it like that for PCT without ****ty sides. This is assuming pharmaceutical grade of course.
 
ryox82 said:
I am curious if raising test via clomid, with everything else in check, will effect body composition in someone like myself who came in low at 269. That's why I figured I would do a log. Too soon to make any calls on that, but I am certainly not getting worse.
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Are you taking bloods?
 
Nac said:
Some guys will not be able to run clomid (at any effective dose) without also using an AI to reduce sides. And, just to be a real fuker, some guys will just have a sh1t time with clomid and feel crap no matter what.

I dunno what endos like Crisler/Shippen/etc do in such cases....but there certainly are such cases.
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When you say some people will have a sh1t time on clomid no matter what are you talking about the mental/depression type feeling people get from it? Or do you think with this low of a dose that those sides could be mitigated
 
lstatum1s said:
When you say some people will have a sh1t time on clomid no matter what are you talking about the mental/depression type feeling people get from it? Or do you think with this low of a dose that those sides could be mitigated
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Just based on feedback at certain trt forums, and comments by Crisler and Saya etc, the symptomatic/subjective sides prove too overwhelming for some users regardless of dose. Clomid just isnt for them.

But as ryox noted, using the lowest effective dose will tend to also have the lowest risk and incidence of sides.
 
muchstronger2 said:
If you manage to get in the 500-600ng/dl range you'll notice a significant difference compared to how you feel and look at 269.
Then until 1200 you wouldn't feel a proportional difference, the progress curve is rather flat between 600 and 1200.



As far as estrogens are concerned, my results indicated they are exactly mid range, which surprises me for two reasons:

1) My test came back 25% above upper limit of the range. You would expect E2 to also be out of range to even things out.

2) I had read that Clomid skews the E2 reading during blood tests and makes the reading falsly high
Click to expand...

Did you get a sensitive assay for e2? It will be far more accurate, and many endos will disregard e2 values that are not sensitive.
 
muchstronger2 said:
If you manage to get in the 500-600ng/dl range you'll notice a significant difference compared to how you feel and look at 269.
Then until 1200 you wouldn't feel a proportional difference, the progress curve is rather flat between 600 and 1200.
Click to expand...

Mostly agree... The psychological effects continue to build in a concentration-dependent manner, but the physical effects are little different until you enter supraphysiologic range.


As far as estrogens are concerned, my results indicated they are exactly mid range, which surprises me for two reasons:

1) My test came back 25% above upper limit of the range. You would expect E2 to also be out of range to even things out.
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If your clomid dose is on point *AND* your testes are mostly functional, then your T level should reach close to your genetic "set point" and E2 would follow, reaching the ratio of T:E2 that your genes want. It's only when you exceed this set-point *OR* increase LH levels such that intratesticular aromatization becomes excessive (such as excessive clomid doses), that excess E2 becomes an issue. This is why some guys on clomid will have a TT of 900 and E2 of 90, where before they may have had a TT of 400 and an E2 of 20. SERMs are incredibly potent at increasing LH in those who are not primary hypogonadal...

2) I had read that Clomid skews the E2 reading during blood tests and makes the reading falsly high
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This is nonsense that's been parroted ad nauseum. I think Dr. Crisler postulated this hypothesis, which was then instantly accepted as fact. There is not a single published study supporting this assertion.
 
ryox82 said:
12.5 to 25 eod, that raises test plenty in hypogonadal men. You should be able to run it like that for PCT without ****ty sides. This is assuming pharmaceutical grade of course.
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Absolutely agree. That dose is spot on.
 
Spurfy said:
Mostly agree... The psychological effects continue to build in a concentration-dependent manner, but the physical effects are little different until you enter supraphysiologic range.




If your clomid dose is on point *AND* your testes are mostly functional, then your T level should reach close to your genetic "set point" and E2 would follow, reaching the ratio of T:E2 that your genes want. It's only when you exceed this set-point *OR* increase LH levels such that intratesticular aromatization becomes excessive (such as excessive clomid doses), that excess E2 becomes an issue. This is why some guys on clomid will have a TT of 900 and E2 of 90, where before they may have had a TT of 400 and an E2 of 20. SERMs are incredibly potent at increasing LH in those who are not primary hypogonadal...



This is nonsense that's been parroted ad nauseum. I think Dr. Crisler postulated this hypothesis, which was then instantly accepted as fact. There is not a single published study supporting this assertion.
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What I meant is that my E2 number is exactly the same as when my test was 550.
That is my test doubled and my E2 remained the same.
I thought the body maintained a consistant ratio of the two.

I guess homeostasis is a complicated matter and isn't just explained mathematically
 
muchstronger2 said:
For all your crackheads out there considering anabolics like I did, I got some news:

I was tested Nov 16 with Total tests levels of 570 ng/dl.

I thought it was pretty low, considered self TRTing, but went for Clomid instead.

I have been taking 12.5mg a week (yes, only 1/4 pill a week) ever since until today.

Tested for total test last week: came back at 1154ng/dl.

That's the only addition I've made since starting clomid.

I'm blown away
Click to expand...

If you , like me have type O blood and certain genetic traits this is very possible. I remember people saying I was full of **** . But I was retested a week later numbers were still rising . Doc took me off clomid :)
 
im on trt..did clomid for awhile at 12.5mg three xs per week..got the test lvls up in the 700 range..just felt like crap on clomid..went back to test cyp..range in the 800s feel good again..was tryin to get away from injecting but clomid not for me
 
I'm using Clomid in PCT right now. And man, this shi7 makes me feel awful on the first day. I'm 3 days in, and I'm adapting. But the anxiousness and difficulty not over reacting to trivial daily normalcies requires constant self awareness.

In the plus side, libido jumps are legit. And orgasm quality is awesome. It will be worth it IMO
 
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