Epicatechin duration and dosing

[hrdgain81]

Hey everyone, wanted to get your take on this. I have A bottle of Follidrone as well as around 35g of epicatechin bulk powder, question is would it be better to run it at a lower dose, say 250-300mg per day for a 5-6 month run, or double it to 500mg and run it for half the time? One thing to note is that I will start using it as part of my pct then continue use there after. Thanks in advance for any responses, and sorry if this has been discussed I searched for a while but couldn't find anything.

 

[EricMM]

500mg for sure. If you can get your hands on MyoX, I would add that in as well. I think you need to hit a certain threshhold to get an effect.

 

[hrdgain81]

Thanks for the reply Eric, I looked into MyoX and I won't be going that route. It's very expensive and is a prop blend of mostly things I've never heard of. I do appreciate the response though.

 

[EricMM]

Thanks for the reply Eric, I looked into MyoX and I won't be going that route. It's very expensive and is a prop blend of mostly things I've never heard of. I do appreciate the response though.

It's some patented egg extraction of Follistatin. I do believe it works and for me I go for it on everything I do. Creatine Monohydrate is a good one for reduction if you want something cheap to take.

 

[hrdgain81]

Just as a quick update, my plan as of now is to run it at 500mg per day during pct, then drop down to 250mg per day after that 6 weeks. The intention is to keep muscle growth high in pct, then reap some of the other benefits at lower dosages for a longer period of time.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

If you think -(-)Epi will give you any noticeably measurable muscle increases - you may want to dose that 500mg every 2 hours:

 

[Volvo140G]

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Time release via TD is a good option, we've got Ep1c Unleashed on a B1G1 sale at Nutriverse right now... caps too if you want to attack from both angles.

 

[travbedaman]

If youre taking bulk epi, you really need to split it in at least 3 or more doses per day and take some absorbtion enhancers with it. I was taking 250mg of green tea extract and some bioperine with each dose a few months ago and it makes a difference.

 

[ws65]

Calling Uncle Danes

The_Old_Guy is right, the graph says it all...now you may not need to 500mg at a time (maybe 300mg is enough?), but throughout the day dosing, according to studies, seems to have the best results.

travbedaman makes another good point, (-)epi really needs an absorption enhancer so don't waste your bulk powder, get something that will do this (research what the best one would be for how you want to use it). I wonder if bonding to shiljit would yield really good results like the tomatidine...hmmm...anyways...

From another thread on AM...
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Uncle Danes posted this...

"I have written about Epicatechin and how to dose it before but best way would be to spread it thru the day.
1. 3 caps daily 4 hours apart. (there is a study showing follistatin increase after Epicatechin ingestion. after 6 hours the Levels was back to "normal". So take it each 3-4 hour)
2. Take it on a empty stomach (recently Study proves that Catechin, no matter if its Isomer/StereoIsomer) Works best on empty stomach.
3. Take it everyday ! 3 caps 4 hours apart on empty stomach

Here is something I wrote before about Epicatechin:

I can say it would be best taking Epicatechin on an empty stomach, and it is not just with Epicatechin but generaly catechins (studies shows).

If we look at the epicatechin study from 2015 (Concentration vs. time profile) after just one hour its at the highest concentration and pretty low 6 hours later (after ingestion).
So to make sure the concentration is stable, i would DEFF take multiple doses of Epicatechin daily.
As we can se on the graph, 200mg Epicatechin had MUCH higher peak than 100 or 50mg.(sum of Epi metabolites in plasma)
50mg Epicatechin = about 500 ųg/L (reached after 2 hours)
100mg Epicatechin = about 1300/1400 ųg/L (reached after 1 hours)
200mg Epicatechin = about 3700 ųg/L (reached after one hour).
So it does not stop at 200mg. Higher doses would be even better.
We should NOT forget the half life of epicatechin (and as I said, the study showing the effect on follistatin last max 6 hours. About six 6 hours after ingestion the levels went back to baseline).

This is what a good friend of mine who is very knowledgeable wrote:

"This is because of the half life of (-)epi. It's about ~4 hours and the effects on follistatin appears to disappear a few hours after the last dose, so maybe 6 hours post your last dose, you have probably returned to baseline."

1: It would be best to take on an empty stomach
2: To hold the concentration high thru the day, EPI could be taken each 3-4hours apart thru the day. 3-4 times.
3:since concentation peak is highest 1 hour after ingesting, it could be good idea to take it 1 hour prior workout actually"

 

[hrdgain81]

Thank you all for all this great info, unfortunately for me some things have changed and I won't be running the cycle I had intended to just yet. I have some other medical issues that need to get prioritized first such as blood pressure, cholesterol (which is a largely debated topic between myself and my doctor), and slightly elevated sugar levels, among a few others. So now epicatechin is going to take on a completely different role for me.

I now plan to run it for as long as possible, along with a keto-paleo nutrition plan, and a conditioning training program (coming off 6 months of starting strength). I'm going to use the epi to help with the issues I mentioned, and if it helps build muscle and aids endurance thats all the better. I'm now thinking about dosing 200mg 3x day every 4 hours along with an absorption aid. With 70g of powder, and 1 bottle of original Follidrone I should get about 4 months out of it. Thats right about the time I will be having more bloods taken so we will see how well the diet and epi do in terms of overall health.
The_Old_Guy: really appreciate your thoughts and the chart sir, but 500mg every two hours and I would end up divorced. That would be roughly 8g per day which is just not doable financially, but sounds like it would be fun!
trav: Point taken, I will pick up some EGCG, bioperine really messes up my stomach.
ws65: great info and I really appreciate the time you took to put that all together.

I'll also be running some other staples like fish oil at 6g ed, creatine 5g ed, glutamine (for stomach issues) 3g ed, ZMA (sleep aid), and whey.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

FYI on Keto: Be prepared to drop your protein to levels that would scare most people here. I'm at 70g and get about 0.7-1.1mmol on the blood ketone meter (get one of those too - NovaMax has a buy 2 boxes of Ketone Strips and get a free meter deal). Now, I hear everyone has there own idea on what exactly "Keto" means - but I'm going off of Phinney and Volek's above 0.5 mmol/L recco:

“‘Light nutritional ketosis is between 0.5mmol/L and 1.0mmol/L and ‘optimal ketosis’ is between 1.0mmol/L and 3.0mmol/L.”

My body must just really love converting protein to glucose, YMMV. Good luck.

 

[hrdgain81]

Thanks Old Guy, I venture I may be in the same "old age" bracket as you lol. "Keto" is tricky, back in my mid 20's I used to regularly run CKD and was very successful (well for me anyway), got down to my lowest BF back then at around 13% with caliper measures. Today it's a hell of a lot tougher just to run a CKD, I'd honestly just go full keto and do away with the cycling, that seems to invite cheat weeks due to mental weakness.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

I'd honestly just go full keto and do away with the cycling, that seems to invite cheat weeks due to mental weakness.

Yup! LOL! 1 Month, 15 Days in, and I've screwed up twice so far! Hahahaha! It doesn't matter though - it's the weekly, bi-weekly, monthly average that matters. Your body doesn't know what a Gregorian Calendar is

 

[Admin]

Thanks Old Guy, I venture I may be in the same "old age" bracket as you lol. "Keto" is tricky, back in my mid 20's I used to regularly run CKD and was very successful (well for me anyway), got down to my lowest BF back then at around 13% with caliper measures. Today it's a hell of a lot tougher just to run a CKD, I'd honestly just go full keto and do away with the cycling, that seems to invite cheat weeks due to mental weakness.

Its funny because the people doing CKD mine as well go 40/40/20 based on some interesting research showing it takes a full 3-4 days to get back into ketosis after people carb up for 24-48 hours. So by the time you get back into ketosis, you are carbing up a day or two later almost making is pointless to do. You still get the benefits of fat loss being the fact you are taking in less calories, but not the benefits of ketosis for the most part.

 

[hrdgain81]

If I recall correctly I used to start Mondays with something insane like 80% fat, then slowly drop that over the week and increase protein, then it was gorge fest on Saturday after depletion, which always carried over into Sunday. Ah the good ole days of coming home Saturday morning after the gym, sitting down with a box of lucky charms (cause I carbed up the "right way" lol), then passing out on the couch watching cartoons ...

**** you do when you live in a town where you don't know anyone, and have no girl hahahahah