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New Clomiphene Study

Hyde said:
That is not necessary at all.
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Just curious, why would you say that? Tapering down allows your body to adapt to having a lower percent of the drug in your system vs. stopping all at once... but ill admit, I could be missing something here.
 
Joe12 said:
Just curious, why would you say that? Tapering down allows your body to adapt to having a lower percent of the drug in your system vs. stopping all at once... but ill admit, I could be missing something here.
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There's a phrase that goes: "Just because something doesn't happen, doesn't mean it's because of what you're doing"

I think there's a lot of that in the PED world. There are soooooo many studies on Clomid and males out there, and I can't recall any of them:

1. Reporting *any* horrifying outcomes due to Estrogen (you might see 1 guy get some tenderness, like in the OP study).

2. Any "Tapering" of the compound. At most they just do EOD or E3D, but you never see titrating down as a protocol for treatment.

Keep in mind that since 1960, there have probably been at least 10's, if not 100's of thousands of men treated with Clomid (a guess, I don't have numbers, but Dr. Scally has treated over 1,000 himself).

Clomid is structurally similar to Nolvadex. There have been many studies on Nolva and either it's neutral or *positive* effects on blood lipids - something that usually gets destroyed by PEDs. There haven't been any studies on Clomid and lipids, but there have been case study reviews of Hypertriglyceridemia (a genetic defect in some people where a raising of values takes off like rocket, ie. too much). In those cases, Clomid behaved just like Nolvadex. (Nolva lowers LDL and Total Cholesterol, and raises HDL and total triglycerides).

Castro MR, Nguyen TT, O'Brien T. Clomiphene-induced severe hypertriglyceridemia and pancreatitis. Mayo Clin Proc 1999;74(11):1125-8.

Clomiphene has been available for clinical use since 1960 and has been successfully used to aid fertility in women with certain anovulatory disorders. It is a synthetic estrogen analog, of the triphenylethylene derivative group, and its biochemical structure is similar to that of tamoxifen. Estrogen and tamoxifen lower total and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol and increase triglyceride and high-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels. In patients with baseline hypertriglyceridemia, these agents can induce severe hypertriglyceridemia and pancreatitis. The actions of clomiphene on lipid metabolism have not been studied, and to our knowledge, no cases of severe hypertriglyceridemia related to the use of clomiphene have been described. We report the case of a woman who developed 2 episodes of clomiphene-induced hypertriglyceridemia and pancreatitis while receiving this drug for treatment of infertility. Given the striking structural similarity between clomiphene and tamoxifen, it is likely that clomiphene is capable of inducing severe hypertriglyceridemia in patients with certain underlying lipid disorders by a mechanism similar to that of tamoxifen.
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Some more on benefits of Estrogen:

From a scientific perspective a huge 2011 case study gave young men (average age 29) with low testosterone levels clomid for an average of 19 months. It proved that continued clomid administration can maintain testosterone levels within normal range with minimal (if any) side effects. They gave the men varying doses but all were between 25 to 50 mg’s every other day. You can see the before and after results in various hormonal markers in this chart **(See Chart Below)**

One thing you might notice from the chart above is an increase in estradiol or “bad estrogen”. This is a common occurance with the administration of any SERM, simply because a SERM blocks the action of estrogen at the hypothalamus. The body responds by increasing circulating estrogen. This isn’t inherently bad, a new paper showed men with higher estrogen levels (and testosterone levels) had a better libido than men with just high testosterone levels.

The one problem with higher estrogen levels is a believed reduction in bone density. This is the same reason why women are more susceptible to osteoporosis (higher lifetime estrogen levels). But in men it seems to work a bit differently. Again a large case study in 2011 gave older men clomid (same dose as previous study) for 3 plus years and measured bone density. They found that clomid had no negative effect on bone density, and if anything it was improved.
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More on the Estrogen study:

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I just don't see worrying about Estrogen when taking Clomid - other's mileage may vary.
 

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Joe12 said:
Just curious, why would you say that? Tapering down allows your body to adapt to having a lower percent of the drug in your system vs. stopping all at once... but ill admit, I could be missing something here.
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To be blunt, because you just don't need to. I've used Clomid many times now up through 100mg, typically 20-50mg depending on time in PCT. 25mg may be plenty of Clomid for best effects, but it's a small amount as far as sides go. Generally anyone who tolerates Clomid normally won't feel the difference between 5mg adjustments. Due to its half-life, the drug will naturally taper off a little before totally vacating the system upon cessation of usage.

And as mentioned directly above, it's not how the medical community has seen fit to utilize it either. I go with what the human studies show whenever possible. Similar to people freaking out at the concept of women using Anadrol, yet we have human medical studies on women and children eating 50mg a day in a single dose without generally suffering virilization over multiple months. Surely 25mg daily, divided to 12.5 twice, would be a safe, effective, affordable enhancement option for ladies, but people's assumptions online have all but made female adrol usage taboo.
 
Joe12 said:
The_Old_Guy Hyde

Well that clarifies things, thanks. The shelf life, and natal tapper is def the strongest argument. Looks like Ill be sticking with 25 for 4 weeks.
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Another thing to consider is if you get thru a month and things still don't seem back up to speed, who am I to say you shouldn't go on longer? Your individual mileage may vary, as they say.
 
Hyde said:
Another thing to consider is if you get thru a month and things still don't seem back up to speed, who am I to say you shouldn't go on longer? Your individual mileage may vary, as they say.
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most of the studies I've seen are at least 6 weeks.... that's usually the shortest timeline I recommend for PCT.
 
Hyde said:
Another thing to consider is if you get thru a month and things still don't seem back up to speed, who am I to say you shouldn't go on longer? Your individual mileage may vary, as they say.
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I like 6-8 weeks myself.. is that good mileage ? :stooges:
 
I just got my blood work back and everything looked good, test at 499.

I talked my Dr in to give me a month dose of Clomid at 25mg ed.

I been on trt in the past but stopped because I wanted another kid, have no desire to go back on test since my levels is in normal range, when I started trt it was low 200...

What you guys think of a month of Clomid, it should give me a noticeable "boost" right, or should I do a oral short cycle before?

I don't want shutdown myself too much, but miss being "on" :p
 
BBiceps said:
I just got my blood work back and everything looked good, test at 499.

I talked my Dr in to give me a month dose of Clomid at 25mg ed.

I been on trt in the past but stopped because I wanted another kid, have no desire to go back on test since my levels is in normal range, when I started trt it was low 200...

What you guys think of a month of Clomid, it should give me a noticeable "boost" right, or should I do a oral short cycle before?

I don't want shutdown myself too much, but miss being "on" :p
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based off what I've seen/read, I think clomid could definitely give you a boost.... it just depends on other factors, as to why your testosterone was low in the first place...

It's worth a shot, since your doc gave it to you anyway... the only issue is, when you come off, your levels are apt to go back to where there are now.
 
CatSnake said:
based off what I've seen/read, I think clomid could definitely give you a boost.... it just depends on other factors, as to why your testosterone was low in the first place...

It's worth a shot, since your doc gave it to you anyway... the only issue is, when you come off, your levels are apt to go back to where there are now.
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I been "off" any PED for almost 2 years and why my test was so low was because I was losing an extreme amount of weight in a very short period of time, I could turned it around but at the time it made sense to go on trt. I have better lifestyle now with a balanced diet.

I probably start the Clomid in the next week or so, thanks!
 
NoAddedHmones said:
Will be PCTing with enclomid in about 6-7 weeks.
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Seems people were getting into the 600's pretty easy in those studies with 12.5 mg ED of enclomiphene.

CatSnake said:
FWIW,

I had low T numbers about a year ago (285).... I used clomid and arimidex and brought them up to 895 in 6 weeks, and they stayed there for about a year.

however, later on I was dabbling with DHEA in raising my E2 (which was very low), and my T numbers are back down now, even tho I ran a PCT after the DHEA.

my plan is to give enclomiphene a trial, and see how that goes.... the unfortunate thing, is it is becoming clear that I might need to stay on that long term, or transition to a convention TRT regimen.
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Didn't really have an enjoyable and noticeable experience with clomid.

Ran a 10 week cycle of Osta at 25mg ed with OL cycle support. Great gains but libido tanked.

Ran clomid for pct at 50//25/25/25/12.5 with sustain alpha, inhibit-p and OL pct support. I feel that clomd did nothing for me. Libido took months to fully recover.

Posted about it and a couple of guys mentioned that had gotten same results with clomid.

Will be trying Nolva next time.
 
dreamcrusher said:
Didn't really have an enjoyable and noticeable experience with clomid.

Ran a 10 week cycle of Osta at 25mg ed with OL cycle support. Great gains but libido tanked.

Ran clomid for pct at 50//25/25/25/12.5 with sustain alpha, inhibit-p and OL pct support. I feel that clomd did nothing for me. Libido took months to fully recover.

Posted about it and a couple of guys mentioned that had gotten same results with clomid.

Will be trying Nolva next time.
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Where did you get your clomid from?
 
dreamcrusher said:
Didn't really have an enjoyable and noticeable experience with clomid.

Ran a 10 week cycle of Osta at 25mg ed with OL cycle support. Great gains but libido tanked.

Ran clomid for pct at 50//25/25/25/12.5 with sustain alpha, inhibit-p and OL pct support. I feel that clomd did nothing for me. Libido took months to fully recover.

Posted about it and a couple of guys mentioned that had gotten same results with clomid.

Will be trying Nolva next time.
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Like Afi140 already said, I would question the source instead of blaming Clomid.

I used Clomid to get off 2 yrs of trt and it worked great! I actually like Clomid so much I'm doing a Clomid only cycle right now.

My Clomid is from the pharmacy so I know it's good.
 
I am all about that clomid life, 4-days into my PCT and my junk could have cut a diamonds last night, blahahahaha!
 
ChocolateClen said:
Issues tend to.... arise... if you know what I mean ;)

Probably just me tho but still it was awful
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I've never take Viagra, but I thought the whole point was to "arise" Are you saying stuff just doesn't wear off after you finish? If that is the case, then its sounds like round 2 is around the corner, haha
 
Joe12 said:
I've never take Viagra, but I thought the whole point was to "arise" Are you saying stuff just doesn't wear off after you finish? If that is the case, then its sounds like round 2 is around the corner, haha
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Yeah I don't see the problem at all. That's why I'd take it lol
 
How long until you normally see the emotional sides?

I've got them after 4 days. It always takes me back 6 years or so tho, always find myself thinking about an old girlfriend and things her happened so long ago.... it's very strange
 
M.I.D said:
How long until you normally see the emotional sides?

I've got them after 4 days. It always takes me back 6 years or so tho, always find myself thinking about an old girlfriend and things her happened so long ago.... it's very strange
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I don't see sides to be honest but a week in from what I've heard
 
I'm on 25mg ED for a month despite not having low T. I'm definitely feeling great on clomid and making solid strength gains. No side effects to speak of aside from loss of libido which is normal for me on any SERM. That's not to say things don't work as normal downstairs it's just there's no desire for sex. Probably not a bad thing every once in a while when I want to focus all my energy on training lol. My source is also that chemist working all bloody day in India.
 
So I am on day 12 of clomid @25, and noticed my left nut is much larger. I never noticed this the last time I ran it, is this normal, there is no pain.
 
Joe12 said:
So I am on day 12 of clomid @25, and noticed my left nut is much larger. I never noticed this the last time I ran it, is this normal, there is no pain.
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Everyone has one bigger than the other, it will prob just be magnified by the clomid as they are coming back.... IMO
 
M.I.D said:
Everyone has one bigger than the other, it will prob just be magnified by the clomid as they are coming back.... IMO
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Thats what I was thinking, but after them feeling like I stepped into the cold for 2-months, I was like... Holy Sh*t, I got some big balls now!
 
Trying a research chemical enclomiphene now and will let you know how that product compares to regular clomiphene with the sides. Supposed to be a lot better. Only running 12.5mg a day. I did feel some ache in the balls after three days now and had some libido earlier so that's a good sign. This is after a short Epistane/dermacrine cycle.
 
EvanMan said:
Trying a research chemical enclomiphene now and will let you know how that product compares to regular clomiphene with the sides. Supposed to be a lot better. Only running 12.5mg a day. I did feel some ache in the balls after three days now and had some libido earlier so that's a good sign. This is after a short Epistane/dermacrine cycle.
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I'm about 3 weeks in, and not noticing too much yet. 25 mg/day.... I also never got sides on regular Clomid (but I keep the dose to 25 mg/day as well), so I can't tell much difference.

I'm planning on getting bloodwork in a couple weeks and will be able to update on the effect on my TT, LH, FSH, etc...
 
CatSnake said:
I'm about 3 weeks in, and not noticing too much yet. 25 mg/day.... I also never got sides on regular Clomid (but I keep the dose to 25 mg/day as well), so I can't tell much difference.

I'm planning on getting bloodwork in a couple weeks and will be able to update on the effect on my TT, LH, FSH, etc...
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I'm 2 weeks in, 25mg/day as well, unfortunately haven't been able to lift as hard as would of liked to the last couple of weeks so have not gained anything, wasn't expecting too much but if get a 100-200 jump in test I'm happy, guess only blood work will tell...
 
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