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Epistane, Trest, Super-11

2687 sounds about right for your maintenance kcals. I'd also do the 40/40/20 getting 220p/97f/109c... It's all about nutrient timing when it comes to recomp IMO.
 
mmorso said:
2687 sounds about right for your maintenance kcals. I'd also do the 40/40/20 getting 220p/97f/109c... It's all about nutrient timing when it comes to recomp IMO.
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Timing? Like carbs only PWO? I've got a few recipes that I'll have to adjust / calculate. I've got a pancake mix with protein added for 21g/4 flapjacks. Tablespoon of syrup is optional. But it's got 30g carbs 5 from fiber, 3 from sugars. The rest is oat and whey protein added. So that's what I mean I'll have to adjust that. While sugar and simple carbs are at a minimum I do consume a good amount of quinoa and amaranth and other ancient grains. Those might have to nearly go.

I'm looking for affordable turkey alternative bacon, got any leads? ?
 
I've got a meal that I east as a snack. 4 chicken breast tender baked with some Yoshi Teriyaki sauce. Turns out that stuffs had a ton of corn syrup in it. Very depressing as I go through my "healthy" foods and find there's at least one thing wrong with each lol.
 
Here's what I would do after almost 3 years of (continuing) experimentation:

Use the Miflen-St. Jeore formula for your sex, age, height, weight - but for the 'Activity Level' make it 1 or 2 sessions LESS. For example, I do 'something' every day, but instead of choosing "Every Day", I choose 6 or 5 (I forget ATM). This is pretty darn close *for me*. Then just watch the scale/tape measure/caliper and adjust if necessary.

As far as Macros - pick a protein number that your wallet can afford between 1.6-2.4g/kg, healthy hormonal fat range (usually 0.7-0.9g/kg) and fill the rest in with carbs up to your kcal ceiling. It does come out to pretty close to 40/40/20 as stated above.

My 2 cents anyway - dropped from 285 to 210 doing that ^
 
So in case anyone isn't sure I've trained in the past - or just so you can see what I was like in 2012 after a Helladrol run I've got some pictures. 16%BF ~ 210lb's.

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So after a car wreck, ton's of prednesone and other steriods at the hospital, humptey dumptey was put back together again.. . sub in a few titanium pins, otherwise still not yet turned into a Cyborg.

Anways given this wasn't forever ok I feel like I can get back to it in good time, with the right gear, and food, and attitude. I've got the momentum so I'm n
 
That sounds reasonable. You're cutting out two sessions to give you a lower target calorie intake then right?
 
You can take nothing and "get back to former glory". 1-2lbs fat loss a week (I averaged 1.5) using nothing but ECY is so doable - just takes time. 52lbs will take a year... it goes by quick!
 
sespress said:
That sounds reasonable. You're cutting out two sessions to give you a lower target calorie intake then right?
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Well... for me, the formula as written, is off a bit - doing the above makes it work for EVERYTHING. Loss, TDEE, or Lean Bulk is all about right. But I'm 48, so maybe it is "On" for a faster metabolism younger guy? Any way, unless you have access to a Metabolic Ward, these are ALL just ball park tools to get you in the range - kcal intake vs scale/tape/caliper will dial you in - it just takes a while to figure it out.
 
I counted and I have 180 x15mg Epistanes. So I won't be running out of that lol.
I've 180 x25mg Trest.
And I've got 5 bottles of super-11 (lol, that bogo though...).

In addition the cabinet of goodies now has:
I do 90 EipiTren" 10x Epistane and 10mg Trenevar. But I'm not ready for Tren yet and I know it, even in a low combo like that.
I have about 160 x250mg EpiAndro leftover.
I have about 75 x 110x 4-Andro
I have two bottles of Super-2.
2x 30ml x25mg/ml bottles of MK677.
2x 2mg CJC-1295 (w/ DAC)
300mcg N-Acetyle SEMAX
100mg N-Acetyl-Epitalon
1kg Phenebut (I know right I've been stocking it afraid it;ll be illegal one day)
1 big tub of Tr1umpth (suggested b/c of the phosphatized goodies in it)
Injectable B-Complex (saving for cycle)

Gut Health x2
OxyMax x2 (anyone have a better alternative for being on cycle? This helps with hunger so it's awesome in that way.)
IInvictus & VTII from Iron Legion (like these a lot too, seeing good results from them).

Home workout when I have to, gym when I can, and I'm getting a dial-a-weight dumbbell for christmas (or so I was l;ead to believe) which I will keep at work. Pushup's and Situps at work, everyday. As you can see I'm totally "All-In". When I puti my mind to something I tend to seriously over-engineer the solutions, lol.

Not saying I'm going to use all of that (at least not right away). Really it's become a collection of sorts so I'm putting a cap on it after I get one more bottle of Tr3st Trans-dermal. Then that I will use on my stack as a slower delivery method for the Trestolone, keeping the 25x pills for PWO (and perhaps with 250-500mg Epi-Andro thrown in also PWO, as tolerance provides).

Also I have a tub of Tudca, two bottles of Arm1care Pro, a big drum of Taurine (ready for the pumps that Epistane typically gives).

I've tot Prami, Exemestane, Colmid, and Nolva on hand in case of emergencies and for PCT. A variety of natty boosters from now until then:
T3stify, Alphamax XT, Diesle Test (Love these products). Which I will discontinue a week before bloods, which will be in 6-8 weeks right before I start the cycle. So I'm looking at mid-January.

that being said is there anything else that's worth stocking up on (even if I shouldn't combine it with this run, but in case it''s gonna be gone soon or is really worth keeping on hand)?
 
Think I should get the calipers? I've a scale right now that uses electric interference on the bare feet to try to determine body mass from water, and fat (based on resistance). I understand this is not perfect, but good for a ballpark right?? OR should I seriously get the calipers?

btw thanks for all teh feedback so far gents.
 
The_Old_Guy said:
You can take nothing and "get back to former glory". 1-2lbs fat loss a week (I averaged 1.5) using nothing but ECY is so doable - just takes time. 52lbs will take a year... it goes by quick!
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Yeah I told myself 18 months total. That's the goal to look exactly the same. I know it can be done, I also know I'll have a bit of acceleration from the cycle. And more fun. Let's not forget that !
 
sespress said:
Think I should get the calipers? I've a scale right now that uses electric interference on the bare feet to try to determine body mass from water, and fat (based on resistance). I understand this is not perfect, but good for a ballpark right?? OR should I seriously get the calipers?

btw thanks for all teh feedback so far gents.
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I have a 4 Point BIA from Omron - after using it for over a year, I say F BIA. The thing will swing 5%'age points in 1 day. Highly affected by hydaration, and the better shape you get in, the less accurate it is (despite the 'Athlete' setting). Scale, Tape (around lower abdomen, very few will add muscle there. Use cm/mm and I think they even have digital ones now), and Caliper are better. I pretty much just use the fancy BIA scale for weight now :D
 
I agree with tog, unless youre getting real low in bodyfat the good old tape measure is the most effective/cheap way of determining stomach fat changes over time. The basic bathroom scale is crude and indiscretionary when it comes to determining composition changes obviously....but nigh on perfect for letting you know if youre heading in the right direction with overall kcal intake.
 
If you eat only 2300 calories a day at current weight and you put in the hard work you should lose a considerable amount of weight on your current cycle! You have a huge stash of supps my man.
 
dvw said:
If you eat only 2300 calories a day at current weight and you put in the hard work you should lose a considerable amount of weight on your current cycle! You have a huge stash of supps my man.
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Yeah they're just hanging out wondering when I'll be using them, lol. And hard work is no issue, I actually woke up too late for the gym today on my day off and I am PISSED. so I've got that to keep me going lol. I move back to day shifts in January which will add more time to workout.

Anyways I'll be spending most of my tonight off tallying all the macros in my food. I'm hitting that calorie goal already I've got a feeling it's a bit heavier on carbs than fat per the 40/40/20 split.
 
The_Old_Guy said:
I have a 4 Point BIA from Omron - after using it for over a year, I say F BIA. The thing will swing 5%'age points in 1 day. Highly affected by hydaration, and the better shape you get in, the less accurate it is (despite the 'Athlete' setting). Scale, Tape (around lower abdomen, very few will add muscle there. Use cm/mm and I think they even have digital ones now), and Caliper are better. I pretty much just use the fancy BIA scale for weight now :D
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OK so you know I feel better having heard you say that. This thing does fluctuate. I'm trying to lie to myself "feet most be dirty?". "battery is dying?". To explain some strange changes both for and against my goals. I stopped getting on the thing everyday just cause water weight fluctuations, just once a week in the AM. And I've averaged the other values, I think there's probably a 10% variance in the machine fat/water % figures day to day. Sounds like I'll be just using it for weight and getting the calipers myself.
 
The_Old_Guy said:
I have a 4 Point BIA from Omron - after using it for over a year, I say F BIA. The thing will swing 5%'age points in 1 day. Highly affected by hydaration, and the better shape you get in, the less accurate it is (despite the 'Athlete' setting). Scale, Tape (around lower abdomen, very few will add muscle there. Use cm/mm and I think they even have digital ones now), and Caliper are better. I pretty much just use the fancy BIA scale for weight now :D
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What caliper do you use?
 
sespress said:
What caliper do you use?
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I use the Sequoia Defender, but I got it free, re-branded by BB.com a long time ago.

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I will be getting this though:

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This is supposedly a fairly accurate single point Suprailiac chart:

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The_Old_Guy said:
I use the Sequoia Defender, but I got it free, re-branded by BB.com a long time ago.

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I will be getting this though:

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This is supposedly a fairly accurate single point Suprailiac chart:

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Purchased. Both. Also printed the chart in large format for the workout wall.

Thanks brother!

I tried s bit of experiment with the body comp scale and put vasaline on my right heel. I came up as 48% bf and a BMI in the 50's. Basically the scale told me I'm dying and must be only using one foot to get weighted. haha. So yeah... Fk that thing, lol. If any oil on the skin can throw it that bad fluctuations sure too happen even with clean skin. I bet sodium retention changes it's bf% figures from electrical resistance issues.

You all are awesome. I'm spending money on all this but his a personal investment in my health. If I stay overweight and sedentary you know what happens later in life. I'm trying to fix it all before 35 to get back to my 24-26 yo body build.

Can't thank everyone enough for the technical help, suggestions, and even the detractions and warnings. Good looking out fellas!
 
Anyone know if the epistane decomposition in the body yeilded the same thing as the spontaneous breakdown that can occur with time?
 
Not a bad prohormone only cycle bro. Trest is some strong stuff. I've run it as high as 100mg orally. Preferred the Dermatrest a bit more. Glad you have AI in place, Aromasin no less.

I'd aim to drop body fat percentage primarily at this point, to bring out the physique. You'll want to lift of course for gains. But certainly do your fair share of cardio. Interval training is great (run/sprint/run etc). Also you can add in cardio when extra energy is present, take a run around the block in the morning for example.
Lastly, adding in something like Clen, or ECA stack, T3, can really aid in burning up some body fat. Best of luck!
 
Deficit get's you 98% to your goal. At most, I'd use Ephedrine. I'd personally stay away from Clen and T3. Ephedrine, Caffeine, and EGCG (and you can drop the E if you can't get it) are all you need... There's no way around it - estimate the pounds of fat you want to lose - well, that's how many weeks it's going to take. You didn't put it all on overnight, it ain't coming off overnight either.

Form of Cardio doesn't matter IMO - do what you enjoy (or at least can tolerate) and what doesn't get you injured. At the end of the day, all the research is either mixed, or only shows a slight real world advantage to various types - when you have 50lbs to lose, it doesn't f'n matter in my experience. I do recommend Fasted Cardio though - despite what Schoenfeld found - my brain won't accept it not being at least equal :D

I wouldn't resistance train any different either - for "fat loss". I'd pretty much do what Mike Israetel recommends for "Bodybuilding": 4-6 week Mesocycles (I do 6 including Deload) like (Weekly Microcycle Reps):

10-15/6-10/10-15/3-5/3-5/Deload

...hitting each muscle group at least twice per Microcycle (Schoenfeld again). I'm *really* having success doing Full Body 3x/Week with a different muscle group exercise each time (i.e Chest = Flat Bench workout 1, Incline workout 2, and Flys or Weighted Pushups workout 3). Cardio the other 4 days - either uphill walking (LISS), X-Country Ski Machine (MISS) or (no sh^t) friggen Jumping Jacks :D

I also recommend, like some above, NOT doing all these drugs - wait until you are leaner. Good luck.
 
Great training suggestions from The_Old_Guy... I also think fasted cardio and/or fasted resistance training is awesome for fat loss. I'm a fan of supplementing with yohimbine Hcl and HMB when doing fasted training... it's really a simple natty set up for recomping.
 
The_Old_Guy said:
Deficit get's you 98% to your goal. At most, I'd use Ephedrine. I'd personally stay away from Clen and T3. Ephedrine, Caffeine, and EGCG (and you can drop the E if you can't get it) are all you need... There's no way around it - estimate the pounds of fat you want to lose - well, that's how many weeks it's going to take. You didn't put it all on overnight, it ain't coming off overnight either.

Form of Cardio doesn't matter IMO - do what you enjoy (or at least can tolerate) and what doesn't get you injured. At the end of the day, all the research is either mixed, or only shows a slight real world advantage to various types - when you have 50lbs to lose, it doesn't f'n matter in my experience. I do recommend Fasted Cardio though - despite what Schoenfeld found - my brain won't accept it not being at least equal :D

I wouldn't resistance train any different either - for "fat loss". I'd pretty much do what Mike Israetel recommends for "Bodybuilding": 4-6 week Mesocycles (I do 6 including Deload) like (Weekly Microcycle Reps):

10-15/6-10/10-15/3-5/3-5/Deload

...hitting each muscle group at least twice per Microcycle (Schoenfeld again). I'm *really* having success doing Full Body 3x/Week with a different muscle group exercise each time (i.e Chest = Flat Bench workout 1, Incline workout 2, and Flys or Weighted Pushups workout 3). Cardio the other 4 days - either uphill walking (LISS), X-Country Ski Machine (MISS) or (no sh^t) friggen Jumping Jacks :D

I also recommend, like some above, NOT doing all these drugs - wait until you are leaner. Good luck.
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Crazy long response, sorry:

Interesting workout, that's s system I've not heard of. Much reading to do and I'll def try that out. I get 4 good workout days and then some light stuff I can do at the office overnight. Buddy gave me 3 kettlebells to use at the office so I can do a lot more now.

Fasted cardio is out of the question I think, or last time I did it wrong and got mad sick. Plus doesn't that make you go catabolic a little?

I can tolerate bike, stair machine (like a 1/4 escalator), rowing. Running and the elliptical for whatever reason tweak my knee. I've done some lifts, like the T bar (not sure what's called but basically a raise and then walking it up to vertical), cleans, and some circuit exercises that get my heart rate up into the cardio range. Not sure if that's any substitute so I still have a cardio "day".

Clen is a no go. Tried it once. 3rd day I had a muscle cramp that listed 30 minutes. Pure agony. My foot attached itself to my ass and I had to use my bodyweight to lever it straight. I actually thought of calling 911 lol, it would not quit. I mean it was actually 30 minutes, no bs... I think I started laughing in pain because it was farcical that it didn't go away. Find out later this is a side of Clen and I'm apparently mad prone to an intense version of it.

T3 I won't touch. Messing with test and associated sex hormones is plenty and enough endocrine risk. Thyroid? Nope.

So my reason behind the chems. You might not understand man, If you've never been really fit, played mad sports, surfed, enjoyed all physical activities. Took karate, black belt, rock climbing, etc... And then blam, car accident, hospitals, corticosteroids, bed ridden, pain killers and addiction associated with them, depression, surgical infections, clinical trial antibiotics, more doctors, more drugs, anti depressants, truely unbelievable weight gain, your job, your apartment. Your life falls apart.

Well You want it back bad, so bad. You got a hot girl and she's so faithful she puts up with this fat man she's suddenly with. You make yourself sick. You need to fix it, you try And you can't, it just doesn't work, months go by trying then hurting, waiting to heal again, trying again. 2 years man of pain. You get injured again, you have no energy or strength. You need a kick start, you need better healing. You figure you'll try anything, so let's try a run again... It's been years and you've read some encouraging things, you pick mildish stuff, try adding mk, and it works...I get that kick-start.

I'm gonna think about dropping the drugs, but I still will likely run this cycle in the early spring. I can drop a lot of fat by then.
 
Listen I appreciate all the technical advice, dose and whatnot. I wish there was a definitive place for these answers without having to post around, get advice, compare it, etc. Other forums have nothing on AM as far as I've seen reading around. I'd have been trolled hard some places for this, but I have received sound advice and warnings. I thank everyone for the input.

I've got a lot of determination, time to train, and after plugging the numbers my "ad-hoc" diet plan is only slightly off from recommendations. I'll continue as planned for now until spring, but I think I'll just have to prove everyone wrong. I'm certain I can do it, and I think that what I want to take will help. It's not as if i don't train, never have, and don't eat right. I'm not down on the terminology, or some of the workout plans, and so I think it makes me seem like a complete noob, but I'm not.

Thanks The_Old_Guy & mmorso and others for training advice. I've been reading on that and my work schedule will accommodate it so I'll give it a shot, why not! Also you seem to really know what's up!

I'll be posting again in a few months then with progress. I'm certain I will impress.

Cheers,
 
Woody said:
Is the same true for Alpha Y?
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As usual I'm getting an education.
Never knew they'd have other forms of it. Just googled it in assuming you mean alpha yohimbine. I could give it a shot, never tried. Is it known to give less of a mental side? The other question is if it's gonna be OK with the alphamax and OxyMax products. Maybe it'll just be too much stim.

Do you recommend the alpha version? I'm reading there are a few?

"Rauwolscine is what is known as a diastereoisomers of Yohimbine. There are 3 diastereoisomers, the other two being corynanthine and 3-epi-alpha-yohimbine. Basically, it is an alternate form of it with slightly altered properties.

It's mechanisms of action are very similar to yohimbine, as it can act as an Alpha(2)Adrenergic antagonist and thus aid in fat burning (not so much by inducing fat loss, but by alleviating pressures the body exerts to preserve fat mass; its like preventing the body from stopping the fat loss, but doesn't induce it directly). Rauwolscine shows some promise in being more effective due to higher potency on the same receptor."
 
Is HMB making a resurgence? I remember being a rage back in the late 90's? Then it said to be worthless now if seems like I'm hearing making a comeback.?
 
Br1ck_Sh1thouse said:
Is HMB making a resurgence? I remember being a rage back in the late 90's? Then it said to be worthless now if seems like I'm hearing making a comeback.?
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It's just a calcium supp? Says "decreases DOMS". Increased recovery. Dunno much about it otherwise. It sounds like creatine... Kinda.
 
I would buy a pure rauwolscine product and start at 3 mg pre workout/cardio. Good for pumps/vaso dilator also.
 
Dunno about a resurgence, but I take it daily. It's not calcium.

"HMB (Calcium β-Hydroxy β-Methylbutyrate Monohydrate) is a potent metabolite of the Branch Chain Amino Acid (BCAA) Leucine and has been shown in scientific studies to protect muscle tissue, preserve muscle cells, promote muscle growth."

Full details are on our site at - Invalid Link Removed
 
sespress said:
It's just a calcium supp? Says "decreases DOMS". Increased recovery. Dunno much about it otherwise. It sounds like creatine... Kinda.
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No way off. HMB is a metabolite of the amino acid leucine that helps protect against muscle protein breakdown (MPB). With anabolism, the goal is to have a higher rate of muscle protein synthesis (MPS) than MPB.

When in a caloric deficit, there is a higher rate of MPB which is where I think HMB can really help. If you train fasted, which you should if you want to loose some body fat IMO, taking HMB is something you should consider
 
mmorso said:
Hell yeah habajaba...
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Tag team! :)

Seriously though, totally agree. I prefer training fasted after getting used to it. It wasn't easy at first. I take some good BCAAs intra (RPG has BCAA + EAA + glutamine) and HMB throughout the day. Helps me lose the fat and keep the good stuff!
 
Br1ck_Sh1thouse said:
Is HMB making a resurgence? I remember being a rage back in the late 90's? Then it said to be worthless now if seems like I'm hearing making a comeback.?
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Bill Phillips did a great disservice to HMB-Ca when he proclaimed "Feels like Deca"... as supplement company shills are want to do. Check Suppversity - within the last couple years, there have been 3 or 4 studies showing up to double digit improvement in various activities with 3g HMB-Ca/Day. And it's about $45/Kilo.... which will last you about a year.
 
habajaba said:
Tag team! :)

Seriously though, totally agree. I prefer training fasted after getting used to it. It wasn't easy at first. I take some good BCAAs intra (RPG has BCAA + EAA + glutamine) and HMB throughout the day. Helps me lose the fat and keep the good stuff!
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Another benefit of fasted training is that it seems to make natty sups work a sh1t load better.... Mediator PA is a great example... if I eat then take PA caps I don't get the muscle fullness nearly as much as fasted.
 
The_Old_Guy said:
Bill Phillips did a great disservice to HMB-Ca when he proclaimed "Feels like Deca"... as supplement company shills are want to do. Check Suppversity - within the last couple years, there have been 3 or 4 studies showing up to double digit improvement in various activities with 3g HMB-Ca/Day. And it's about $45/Kilo.... which will last you about a year.
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It's funny you mention Bill Philips, he was exactly who I had in mind for the one pushing it.
 
OK I'm gonna bump my own thread again.

Moving forwards I've been doing well cutting down on weight. Had a hiccup on diet while traveling to see family but you can't turn down grandma's home made cake! Still down in total and didn't gain anything back which I count as good through the holidays. Current weight is 251. I'll do caliper bf%'s and post that and weight when I post my bloods as a total baseline.

I'm bumping this to get some questions out of the way.

Is there any side other than dry joints or acne or lethargy (the typical ones) that anyone had heard of that epistane is known for that I should consider additional support supps for?

Bloods will be done as I mentioned this week as a sanity check before beginning this run on Jan 15th-ish. I'll post the results and them I'll try to do my first log on this thread.

I'm considering adding in more Peptides than mk 677, I'm interested if anyone prefers ghrp-6/2 or the CJC products to Mk while on a run. I'm all about the joint support from mk but interested in alternatives.

Lastly I'm gonna try moving from a push pull to HST as I will be working days and I'll have opportunity to work out up to 5 days a week. So any advice on starting that up also appreciated.

Cheers!
 
I wouldn't add in mk677 if your trying to lean out... the appetite is outrageous and hard to control as it mimics ghrelin in the stomach, which is the hormone that triggers hunger...

If you read some of the studies on MK677, in trials patients gained a couple % of BF... I think you really have to watch out and have your diet and training dialed in to not gain BF while taking MK... I mean, if your a guy that struggles with your BF, as I am, this is something to consider.
 
Btw sespress you should post another photo... any photo... on the AM app for my cell phone, it looks like your holding a decapitated head in a bag... I think it's a photo of chicken
 
mmorso said:
Btw sespress you should post another photo... any photo... on the AM app for my cell phone, it looks like your holding a decapitated head in a bag... I think it's a photo of chicken
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Hahahaha oh damn yeah that's a bag of frozen cooked chicken. Jesus I see it now that you mentioned it. Holy crap man I just laughed really hard.

OK I'll post ANYTHING rod thanks for the heads up
 
mmorso said:
I wouldn't add in mk677 if your trying to lean out... the appetite is outrageous and hard to control as it mimics ghrelin in the stomach, which is the hormone that triggers hunger...

If you read some of the studies on MK677, in trials patients gained a couple % of BF... I think you really have to watch out and have your diet and training dialed in to not gain BF while taking MK... I mean, if your a guy that struggles with your BF, as I am, this is something to consider.
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Thank you for that feedback. I've been taking way easy with it but I loved how it made my joints feel perfect. Anything else have that effect? This is probably my main concern with epistane, even though I have a base.

I weighed in today at 251, so even though I was running it a while ago I didn't reverse the fat loss trend I've been trying to get going. If I took it I was gonna stick up on more OxyMax or ignit3 as they have a decent supressent effect on hunger.

I'm gonna do the calipers today and get good readings on paper. I know what the body comp scale thinks but I don't trust it anymore.
 
Calipers say 27.5% @ 251lbs. The body comp scale is harsher at 29, but I'll be posting percentages based on the calipers moving forwards.
 
sespress said:
Got a pair of these on the way, can't wait!
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I have a set. They are nice, and as long as you don't drop them, are still like new almost 3 years later. The only slight negative I could give, would be that they are larger than your std DB at whatever weight, so you may have to slightly adjust a technique here or there.

Take a look at Titan Fitness' adjustables (black) - not as high-tech, being old-school threaded 1"ers, but a pair of 100lb'ers can be had for ~$195 with discounts.

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