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Injectable replacement for tren during a strength cycle

CATdiesel76 said:
I know of a lot of people who put on a ton of strength with Winny and EQ. Winny isn't so great on the bloods though and the joint pain won't be fun for powerlifitng
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EQ is the good one. EQ and just about anything, 6-8 weeks in, will result in greatly increases performance. Tren, Test, Dbol, Winny, any methyl PH really, will do well with EQ. I'd say EQ is the overall best compound because you can run it at moderate doses, with only mild to moderate results unless you train hard and bust tail. It helps get things done but it doesn't do anything entirely for you like Tren, Trest and strong orals do. It's the drug of choice for someone who wishes to keep their work ethic in the process and not grenade their internals.
 
2kvette said:
Okay, this just got real funny to me. This is the difference in an actual scientist(one who actually went to school to become one) and a pub med warrior. You are not understanding what you are reading. They are not saying they aromatize, they are saying that due to the face of the molecule that the C19 methyl faces, they are unable to interact with Cyp3A4(aromatase). Given the lack of the stereo carbon on C19, the only option available is some unknown Cyp interaction or possible keto-enol tautomerization, meaning they are internally aromatizing them selves if at all possible.

I can get the whole article and probably have it by friday and not just the excerpt if anyone wants to read the whole experiment, then I'll really show you in depth what they're talking about.

And again, you are not understanding what you are reading, nandrolone is a potent progestin at dosages used. Your looking at the activity ratios as if they were one to one. They are not a perfect ratio in any practical application due to the dosages used to build skeletal muscle. So in reality the average bodybuilder winds up with several fold increased PR activation than his mother on progesterone for her menopause.
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Thank you, my brother. Although much of this is outside my knowledge base, your clarification is very helpful. Also, it was always my understanding that nandrolone is a progestin. I'm glad you cleared that up.
 
brofessorx said:
Yes, actually, that is exactly what they are saying. The study was to see how it does so in the liver.
im not sure why you refuse to accept this.

CONCLUSION: 19-nortestosterone derivatives (norethisterone, norethynodrel, tibolone) can readily be aromatized in the adult human liver.
Invalid Link Removed

My final plea: if you continue to disagree, please shoot Patrick Arnold an email telling him how he is wrong, cause he clearly has no idea.
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I know Pat, was just emailing through an intermediate with him a couple weeks ago about some new compounds I'm synthesizing. Anyway, your still not getting it. This is not through cyp mediated metabolism. This is through a different mechanism, it COULD happen in your liver, or in your buthole. Liver has nothing to do with it, and AI's will be worthless because there is no cyp3A4 interaction. Aromatase is not an enzyme but more like a nickname for one of the functions of cyp3A4. That could be carried out without enzymes inside or outside of the liver, which is what the study is saying.
 
You went from it can't aromatize, to it can. I'm glad we're getting somewhere, however slowly it's taking us.

And I'm glad you have good relations with pa, that'll make it easier for you to educate him on aromatization of nortest, and what he calls androgens.
Don't argue with me about it, go to the source.
 
brofessorx said:
You went from it can't aromatize, to it can. I'm glad we're getting somewhere, however slowly it's taking us.
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I said that it my first post. It is possible for it to aromatize itself. But it can't get hit with cyp's. So AI's are worthless. But I stand by firmly on what I said, realistically it's not going to happen. An AI is worthless, need to have a 5ar inhibitor because it is the 5 alpha reduced to a potent antiandrogen that when combined with PR activity can cause gyno probs.
 
brofessorx said:
You went from it can't aromatize, to it can. I'm glad we're getting somewhere, however slowly it's taking us.

And I'm glad you have good relations with pa, that'll make it easier for you to educate him on aromatization of nortest, and what he calls androgens.
Don't argue with me about it, go to the source.
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Also, he is kind of a Dick. I will only reach out to him if I really need some guidance. And I don't want to fight, not a good habit to argue. Let's chalk it up to an educated disagreement and call it a day. You should go to school though to study these things! It's loads of fun and interesting as heck. You do not sound as though your dumb, but very intelligent and you argue your points well. I've been keeping my eye out for people in academia who can bridge their passion for health and fitness with an interest in steroid compounds and their biochemistry. Need some new additions to my research team. :)
 
2kvette said:
Also, he is kind of a Dick. I will only reach out to him if I really need some guidance. And I don't want to fight, not a good habit to argue. Let's chalk it up to an educated disagreement and call it a day. You should go to school though to study these things! It's loads of fun and interesting as heck. You do not sound as though your dumb, but very intelligent and you argue your points well. I've been keeping my eye out for people in academia who can bridge their passion for health and fitness with an interest in steroid compounds and their biochemistry. Need some new additions to my research team. :)
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I will say that Patrick Arnold is far from a dick. Last years Arnold I went to his booth and he wasn't there. The next day he came to my booth because he heard I had asked for him an hung out for over an hour. Very personable and cool. He can come off as very sarcastic at time but that's part of his humor. He has never hesitated to answer any questions I had via email or anything else. Stand up guy
 
CATdiesel76 said:
I will say that Patrick Arnold is far from a dick. Last years Arnold I went to his booth and he wasn't there. The next day he came to my booth because he heard I had asked for him an hung out for over an hour. Very personable and cool. He can come off as very sarcastic at time but that's part of his humor. He has never hesitated to answer any questions I had via email or anything else. Stand up guy
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Ha; you don't know him like I do then.
 
2kvette said:
Ha; you don't know him like I do then.
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I don't really know him at all but he would go out of his way to answer questions from a nobody such as myself and went out of his way to come find me at the show and give me an hour of his time just because I was a fan. I always just thought he got a bad rap because people didn't do well with his sarcasm.
 
CATdiesel76 said:
I don't really know him at all but he would go out of his way to answer questions from a nobody such as myself and went out of his way to come find me at the show and give me an hour of his time just because I was a fan. I always just thought he got a bad rap because people didn't do well with his sarcasm.
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Maybe; as I've never met him in person. And I'm pretty sure he lives close to me. Sarcasm doesn't translate well over email.
 
2kvette said:
Maybe; as I've never met him in person. And I'm pretty sure he lives close to me. Sarcasm doesn't translate well over email.
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Maybe. I do know In his Tim Ferris podcast he said his biggest regret was being sarcastic on the forums etc., because gave people the wrong impression of him so maybe that's the case
 
2kvette, can I get some takeaways here? Something of practical application?

Also, you wouldn't happen to own a vette would u? Random, I know. Just had to ask.

(I'm a fellow vette owner myself)
 
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brofessorx said:
You went from it can't aromatize, to it can. I'm glad we're getting somewhere, however slowly it's taking us.

And I'm glad you have good relations with pa, that'll make it easier for you to educate him on aromatization of nortest, and what he calls androgens.
Don't argue with me about it, go to the source.
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Firstly, while PA is a brilliant guy he's far from infallible. I've witnessed him getting spanked in different forums. So adamant, but then, once evidence was given to him, he backed off. I remember a Gaspari rep schooling him on adenosine--specifically PEAK ATP. PA argued for some time until Rappaport's studies were cited.

Trust me, I'm not even trying to imply that I have anywhere near his expertise (in this arena), but no****ingbody's perfect.
So, if a supplement company rep can embarrass him in a forum, his is not the word of god.

2kvette's posts are all manually entered, not copied and pasted. This alone gives me the confidence that his information is reliable. That gives me a solid starting point to research and educate myself. That's not intended to slight anyone else's posts. There's been a lot of good information. I appreciate everyone's contributions
 
fueledpassion said:
EQ is the good one. EQ and just about anything, 6-8 weeks in, will result in greatly increases performance. Tren, Test, Dbol, Winny, any methyl PH really, will do well with EQ. I'd say EQ is the overall best compound because you can run it at moderate doses, with only mild to moderate results unless you train hard and bust tail. It helps get things done but it doesn't do anything entirely for you like Tren, Trest and strong orals do. It's the drug of choice for someone who wishes to keep their work ethic in the process and not grenade their internals.
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Interesting. I've used EQ on two different occasions, but never saw any significant strength gains from it (again, not slighting you. Your contributions thus far are much appreciated). I thought it was a great anabolic, but I'd always coupled it with test. Winstrol makes sense from the same standpoint as masteron, I guess. I've used winstrol once, but it was oral, not injectable. My BP went through the roof, though. I do need to be careful with orals. I drink pretty heavily (I do realize that's not smart), so the additional liver pass kinda scares me. I even use liquid tadalafil and anastrozole sublingually, just to save some of the original compound, as well as saving my poor liver.

Honestly, I've found that many "prohormones" are better than the so called "real deal". Promagnon 25 (desoxymethyltestosterone) and Superdrol (methyldrostanolone [I've included the names for any newbies, not for you. I'm sure you knew that]).

I have a number of medical conditions, so I get my blood tested regularly. My liver enzymes came up "a bit high" one time, according to my doctor, but with the addition of some herbs and amino acids, next time came back good.

What kind of protocol were you using? Also, which of the aforementioned were your favorites?
 
CATdiesel76 said:
I know of a lot of people who put on a ton of strength with Winny and EQ. Winny isn't so great on the bloods though and the joint pain won't be fun for powerlifitng
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EQ never did that for me. The masteron that I'm running alongside should behave similarly, in theory. I'm not concerned with the joint pain, yet. I'm hoping running a progestin alongside may even out the estrogen antagonism. And, like the Winstrol masteron may not be altogether great for the bloods. I know Superdrol absolutely destroyed my bloodwork. It was the worst I've ever seen.

Again, I'm here to learn, or maybe help out when I can (my education lies in an entirely different discipline.). That said, I welcome any other suggestions you may have, and appreciate your input.
 
fueledpassion said:
2kvette, can I get some takeaways here? Something of practical application?

Also, you wouldn't happen to own a vette would u? Random, I know. Just had to ask.

(I'm a fellow vette owner myself)
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Sure; what kind of takeaways would you like to know? Ask away! I did have one but sold it not too long ago, downgraded to a mustang. Grad school is not cheap my friends. And 2k for a set of tires on a vette was starting to get expensive.
 
BigNerd said:
Interesting. I've used EQ on two different occasions, but never saw any significant strength gains from it (again, not slighting you. Your contributions thus far are much appreciated). I thought it was a great anabolic, but I'd always coupled it with test. Winstrol makes sense from the same standpoint as masteron, I guess. I've used winstrol once, but it was oral, not injectable. My BP went through the roof, though. I do need to be careful with orals. I drink pretty heavily (I do realize that's not smart), so the additional liver pass kinda scares me. I even use liquid tadalafil and anastrozole sublingually, just to save some of the original compound, as well as saving my poor liver.

Honestly, I've found that many "prohormones" are better than the so called "real deal". Promagnon 25 (desoxymethyltestosterone) and Superdrol (methyldrostanolone [I've included the names for any newbies, not for you. I'm sure you knew that]).

I have a number of medical conditions, so I get my blood tested regularly. My liver enzymes came up "a bit high" one time, according to my doctor, but with the addition of some herbs and amino acids, next time came back good.

What kind of protocol were you using? Also, which of the aforementioned were your favorites?
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I liked SD for it's strength and pumps but the gains never stuck for me and the sides always made me think twice about doing it again.

DMT, well, I like straight desoxy T alot better. DMT tends to give me high BP but nowadays I run proper stuff like ACE-II's & Calcium channe blockers.

My fav oral now is M1A. I get mine from Med Fit RX which is hands down the best quality money can buy. Be prepared to be amazed if you go that route.

EQ takes time. I first notice the stamina, then recovery, then pumps and vascularity.
 
2kvette said:
Sure; what kind of takeaways would you like to know? Ask away! I did have one but sold it not too long ago, downgraded to a mustang. Grad school is not cheap my friends. And 2k for a set of tires on a vette was starting to get expensive.
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Yeah I've got a C6Z. Will have to pry it from my cold, dead hands!
 
2kvette said:
Damn, heads and a cam, or a twin turbo and you'll hit high nines on the daily. I'm gonna buy a c7z in two years when I graduate. The wife is just gonna have to put up with it lol.
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Yeah, I've got H/C/E on it. Haven't re-tuned it since I put the headers on but I imagine without the tuning, it is making around 540/490 (If I were to guess). I also have a ported MSD sitting in my garage waiting to get installed. Just need a CAI and TB to go with it. Should make 580/540 after tuning.

My request earlier was a synopsis about 19-nor's --> any takeaways on how to utilize AI's, T3 and dopamine agonists with them? I generally use T3 with them to keep prolactin down. I've found it works well enough to avoid having to take dopamine agonists and having to deal with their nasty sides and costly consumption.
 
fueledpassion said:
Yeah, I've got H/C/E on it. Haven't re-tuned it since I put the headers on but I imagine without the tuning, it is making around 540/490 (If I were to guess). I also have a ported MSD sitting in my garage waiting to get installed. Just need a CAI and TB to go with it. Should make 580/540 after tuning.

My request earlier was a synopsis about 19-nor's --> any takeaways on how to utilize AI's, T3 and dopamine agonists with them? I generally use T3 with them to keep prolactin down. I've found it works well enough to avoid having to take dopamine agonists and having to deal with their nasty sides and costly consumption.
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Okay takeaways is this. You know the dreaded deca Dick? It's not from estrogen or prolactin(well it does play a big role tbh). What causes this is something called DHN, dihydronandrolone. 19-Nors do get 5a reduced. And and 5a-reduced 19-nors tend to be POTENT anti-androgens. So AI's aren't the biggest concern with 19-nors, it's 5a inhibitors & second prolactin.

So anytime your using deca, go for a 5a-reductive inhibitor and then think about prolactin.
 
I don't know if it's been mentioned but if you can get it trest acetate. If not get oral or dermal trest. Great stuff and from what I've heard better than tren. I've never done tren tho and never will do injectable 19 nors. Too soul sucking and hard to recover from.
 
fueledpassion said:
Yeah, I've got H/C/E on it. Haven't re-tuned it since I put the headers on but I imagine without the tuning, it is making around 540/490 (If I were to guess). I also have a ported MSD sitting in my garage waiting to get installed. Just need a CAI and TB to go with it. Should make 580/540 after tuning.

My request earlier was a synopsis about 19-nor's --> any takeaways on how to utilize AI's, T3 and dopamine agonists with them? I generally use T3 with them to keep prolactin down. I've found it works well enough to avoid having to take dopamine agonists and having to deal with their nasty sides and costly consumption.
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Forgot to add, AI's are worthless with 19 nors. Since the AI's block cyp3A4(aromatase), and nandrolone has no activity with cyp3A4, it would be worthless to use an AI with it. You would be blocking an enzyme that is not involved in the possible estrogen increase.
 
2kvette said:
Okay takeaways is this. You know the dreaded deca Dick? It's not from estrogen or prolactin(well it does play a big role tbh). What causes this is something called DHN, dihydronandrolone. 19-Nors do get 5a reduced. And and 5a-reduced 19-nors tend to be POTENT anti-androgens. So AI's aren't the biggest concern with 19-nors, it's 5a inhibitors & second prolactin.

So anytime your using deca, go for a 5a-reductive inhibitor and then think about prolactin.
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So basically, use Fina or the like to combat the issues with 19-Nor's.

Thing is, that would reduce the effects of things like Masteron while on, and I like Masteron, lol. Decisions, decisions.
 
fueledpassion said:
So basically, use Fina or the like to combat the issues with 19-Nor's.

Thing is, that would reduce the effects of things like Masteron while on, and I like Masteron, lol. Decisions, decisions.
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Yep, Finasteride at low dose. 1-2.5mg max.

I agree, mast is great! But it won't reduce the effects of mast. Mast is reduced already right out of the box. So no need for it to convert, it's already there. Fina just acts on the enzyme, not the receptor.
 
fueledpassion said:
So basically, use Fina or the like to combat the issues with 19-Nor's.

Thing is, that would reduce the effects of things like Masteron while on, and I like Masteron, lol. Decisions, decisions.
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Good to know, but just like you I dig masteron,,,A LOT!
Sounds like a good protocol when using any 19 nor. That said, I haven't walked away from tren for good. I love tren. I just need to ensure I don't drop dead at the gym one day :-)

I'm unsure, though, how much mitigating 5 AR activity would affect the masteron. It was always my understanding that it and stanozolol were "modeled after" DHT, not necessarily causing an increase in DHT

Again, not disagreeing (always have to use that disclaimer in print), I'm simply not sure.
So, that's a great plan for my next tren cycle.
 
2kvette said:
Yep, Finasteride at low dose. 1-2.5mg max.

I agree, mast is great! But it won't reduce the effects of mast. Mast is reduced already right out of the box. So no need for it to convert, it's already there. Fina just acts on the enzyme, not the receptor.
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Haha, we were posting at the same time. Thanks!
 
2kvette said:
Yep, Finasteride at low dose. 1-2.5mg max.

I agree, mast is great! But it won't reduce the effects of mast. Mast is reduced already right out of the box. So no need for it to convert, it's already there. Fina just acts on the enzyme, not the receptor.
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So then how does Fina help keep the hair from falling out when on stuff like Masteron? Or does it not?
 
BigNerd said:
Good to know, but just like you I dig masteron,,,A LOT!
Sounds like a good protocol when using any 19 nor. That said, I haven't walked away from tren for good. I love tren. I just need to ensure I don't drop dead at the gym one day :-)

I'm unsure, though, how much mitigating 5 AR activity would affect the masteron. It was always my understanding that it and stanozolol were "modeled after" DHT, not necessarily causing an increase in DHT

Again, not disagreeing (always have to use that disclaimer in print), I'm simply not sure.
So, that's a great plan for my next tren cycle.
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A few things...

1) I'm not sure about the Masteron. I asked 2kvette about it to find out more. I have found that Nizoral really slows hairloss down while on stuff like Mast. My only concern with taking Fina is more around it reducing sex drive or the effects of Masteron-like drugs.

2) Tren works well with low carb diets and with a tight regimen. If you have the protein intake up, several meals per day and eating low carbs...you don't need much Tren. Last time I ran only about 100mg/wk with excellent results. Granted, I also ran T3 and about 150mg of EQ per week with it but it worked very well even in low doses. My suggestion to you is to get your diet very tight and locked in then start the Tren. It won't take much if you do it this way. Also, run T3 with the Tren --even when bulking! 25-37.5mcg/day while bulking and 37.5-50mcg/day while cutting. You'd be blown away at how much the T3 speeds up the gains! High carb diet and/or frequent meals easily negates the catabolism of T3. Remember, T3 is both catabolic AND anabolic depending on whether you are in a fasted or fed state.

And lastly, as many of us have learned anecdotally with Tren, low carb diet and T3 removes the sides from Tren (except the aggression). Even night sweats take a back seat.

2kvette again, I'd like your thoughts on how to handle Trest as well. Trest doesn't reduce to 5a-reduced state like the others (so I've read) but the estrogen is out of control and it obviously interacts with prolactin as well.

My thoughts were to use Trest the same way I use Tren - to go low carb, T3 supplementation and a butt load of AI's to reduce conversion. I can't run Trest longer than 5-6 days before I start getting out of control gyno in my left nipple. I hate it, but I've got to figure out a way to reduce this issue without talking .25mg Letro every day.
 
deeznutsboi said:
I don't know if it's been mentioned but if you can get it trest acetate. If not get oral or dermal trest. Great stuff and from what I've heard better than tren. I've never done tren tho and never will do injectable 19 nors. Too soul sucking and hard to recover from.
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If you don't have estrogen issues on Trest or if it's able to be managed - then yes, it outdoes Tren in so many ways, but not strength.

Tren is something I am familiar with and have "cracked the code" to using it effectively at low doses and with minimal sides. If I can get to that point with Trest, it will be my new favorite - only problem is with supply. It's hard to find and the one place I know of that sells Trest Ace, I don't know if I should trust it.
 
fueledpassion said:
2kvette again, I'd like your thoughts on how to handle Trest as well. Trest doesn't reduce to 5a-reduced state like the others (so I've read) but the estrogen is out of control and it obviously interacts with prolactin as well.
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Right, 7 methyl's don't to my knowledge 5a reduce. BUT!!! They do however aromatize with the typical cyp3A4(aromatase) to 7a-methyl-estradiol. This is an estrogen slightly stronger than endogenous estradiol, but it has a slight affinity for ERa over ERb. And the G-protein coupled ER too if I remember. It also is basically not able to bind to serum globulins; so all the 7methyl estradiol is free floating around and looking for a receptor. ERa is the one that causes breast growth btw. So trest's major metabolite is not only a slightly more potent estrogen than natty estrogen, it is partially selective for the exact receptor that causes breast growth, and is pretty much always free with no protein binding. To sum it up, this stuff is like nitro fuel for titties.
 
xR1pp3Rx said:
interesting... I havnt found it to be that bad, it is the only steroid ive used an AI with though, out of fear.
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Did you use it orally? I should remind you, that orally & transdermally, the steroid is 600:600 on the anabolic/androgenic scale but IM it is 2300:600.

With the bioavailability comes more conversion as well.
 
fueledpassion said:
Did you use it orally? I should remind you, that orally & transdermally, the steroid is 600:600 on the anabolic/androgenic scale but IM it is 2300:600.

With the bioavailability comes more conversion as well.
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Okay, I think im gonna have to run some trest im. 2300:600 is just bonkers.
 
fueledpassion said:
Did you use it orally? I should remind you, that orally & transdermally, the steroid is 600:600 on the anabolic/androgenic scale but IM it is 2300:600.

With the bioavailability comes more conversion as well.
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both/all methods..
believe it or not I felt the most nipple sensitivity on the TD (ace) version.
I prefer the deca IM the best so far. and I have tried each ester.
 
xR1pp3Rx said:
both/all methods..
believe it or not I felt the most nipple sensitivity on the TD (ace) version.
I prefer the deca IM the best so far. and I have tried each ester.
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That's cuz TD gives added aromatase exposure. Cyp3A4 is expressed a lot in adipocytes. So the trest goes through a layer of aromatase before it gets to the muscle. This is why I don't like androgel, E2 is higher than in IM.
 
2kvette said:
That's cuz TD gives added aromatase exposure. Cyp3A4 is expressed a lot in adipocytes. So the trest goes through a layer of aromatase before it gets to the muscle. This is why I don't like androgel, E2 is higher than in IM.
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Good to know. I'll stay away from TD Trest. IM conversion is already bad enough. I might abandon it for oral if it means I can have the energy and fullness without the sides...

I wonder what Trest no ester would be like...I am working to get pure Trestolone powder (no acetate attached).
 
fueledpassion said:
Good to know. I'll stay away from TD Trest. IM conversion is already bad enough. I might abandon it for oral if it means I can have the energy and fullness without the sides...

I wonder what Trest no ester would be like...I am working to get pure Trestolone powder (no acetate attached).
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Doesn't oral trest have no ester?
 
fueledpassion said:
Good to know. I'll stay away from TD Trest. IM conversion is already bad enough. I might abandon it for oral if it means I can have the energy and fullness without the sides...

I wonder what Trest no ester would be like...I am working to get pure Trestolone powder (no acetate attached).
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Bro, if you have a source please share in a pm. I know a few people who own businesses who have been having a heck of a time sourcing trest. Pm me if. You care to share :)
 
fueledpassion said:
Yes, but not injection preparation. I'm thinking of making it an IM preparation for pre-workout purposes.
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Understood. Oral has a nice kick pre wo so id be willing to bet it would be intense. For some reason i herd im trest no ester n immediately thought of the shyt tyson was accused of when he bit holyfields ear off.
 
2kvette said:
Okay, this just got real funny to me. This is the difference in an actual scientist(one who actually went to school to become one) and a pub med warrior. You are not understanding what you are reading. They are not saying they aromatize, they are saying that due to the face of the molecule that the C19 methyl faces, they are unable to interact with Cyp3A4(aromatase). Given the lack of the stereo carbon on C19, the only option available is some unknown Cyp interaction or possible keto-enol tautomerization, meaning they are internally aromatizing them selves if at all possible.

I can get the whole article and probably have it by friday and not just the excerpt if anyone wants to read the whole experiment, then I'll really show you in depth what they're talking about.

And again, you are not understanding what you are reading, nandrolone is a potent progestin at dosages used. Your looking at the activity ratios as if they were one to one. They are not a perfect ratio in any practical application due to the dosages used to build skeletal muscle. So in reality the average bodybuilder winds up with several fold increased PR activation than his mother on progesterone for her menopause.
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How about Tren? Does this also happen with Tren to some degree? I ask, because I always notice that Tren works much better with much less sides for me when I run low dose of Test. I suppose one reason is because less test = less estrogen in the body, too.

Just trying to find common ground with this information and what I know anecdotally about Tren.
 
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