best otc product for pct of 11-keto
- Thread starter Toff
- Start date
123abcabcabc
Well-known member
SERM is relatively same price but more effective. Hmmmmm..........
criticalbench
Legend
I wouldn't bother tbh. No real reason to use a pct in this situation.
vujade
Well-known member
Rebirth would definitely fit the bill. I've used it twice during PCT and fully recovered both times.
Got blood work to know for sure.
11 keto is very mild and hardly suppressive, so you will do just fine going OTC.
lifted67
Well-known member
Anafuse is fine for PCT, however if you want to control and know your exact dosages of Laxo and Epicat I recommend running BPS Androcrine (transdermal, allegedly works better for Laxo) and Sparta Epicurus (oral).
Alpha1a
Well-known member
solid advise ! Think that's actually what I'm gunna go with in my pct androcrine and Epicurus to keep the gains coming
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
why risk taking a toxic serm you mean
Poison is in the dose - got any data showing Clomid or Nolva is something to worry about when taken in PCT dosages for a few weeks? Women go on the stuff for years and they have been around since the 60's. And if 11KT is mild, you can probably get away with 2 or 3 weeks? They absolutely work in getting guys from Hypogonadal to Top-Of-Range. The stuff I see on Natty "PCT" products seems to show a return to Baseline (if you're lucky - there are bloodwork posts showing 25-50 points BELOW baseline too) after 6 to 8 weeks...and that could just be your bodies normal re-start doing it's thing, according to Dr. McClain. I'd rather be at 1200 during that time, but that's just me. Bloodwork will tell all - if it hasn't dropped that much at end of cycle, compared to pre-cycle, then don't use the SERM.
vujade
Well-known member
I got my test levels a 100 points higher then pre cycle using Rebirth the 2nd time.
Not normally, but an AI during PCT is a good idea, especially if you used anything wet when on cycle
to prevent any estrogen bounce back.
The Express 42
Well-known member
If you're insisting on going otc pct do Rebirth, Viron, and Letrone by black lion research. Thats the best lineup you're going to get without a serm
CJNator
Well-known member
Definitely this, I'm doing rebirth then sup3r pct to elongate my pct since they have one ingredient that's the same. IMO longer = better.
Rob1882
Active member
HIT4ME
Well-known member
Nolva at 20/20/10/10, Sup3r PCT and Exotherm (weaker than Letting, but still an AI and has fat burning effects which was why I was using 11-KT to begin with). This was my PCT and I didn't do bloods, but I could tell a difference by the end of the PCT.
Are you using transdermal? Which product/dose. A SERM is definitely recommended if you are using this over 200 mg/day.
Are you using transdermal? Which product/dose. A SERM is definitely recommended if you are using this over 200 mg/day.
Lynks8
Well-known member
Appreciate the Sup3r PCT love.
As a natty that's just beginning to really research hormonal stuff, can someone educate me on the downsides of using a SERM? I've heard about feeling depressed on clomid, but that's it. From my potentially naive viewpoint, if you're going to use enough 11-KT to be suppressive, the alleged downsides of a SERM have to be way less detrimental than the downsides of not using one and not recovering as quickly, right?
Jebrook
Well-known member
IMO, the biggest issues for most people using or not using a SERM is being unsure of how to obtain from a legit safe source or being uneducated about how to safely cycle. There really are very few cons to using a SERM versus the heavy risks of not using one. The inherent toxicity of SERMs and risk of side effects is much less than steroidal compounds. A low dose Clomid cycle( ex.12.5 mg for 3 weeks) would have extremely low risk of sides, virtually no toxicity, and all but guarantee quick and proper recovery from a cycle like the one discussed in this thread.
Lynks8
Well-known member
Great info. You always know your stuff. Thanks brah.
kelso312
Member
No No No
What is all this jibberish?
I am guessing you mean Patrick Arnold when you say PA.
He mentions the "11 KT bridge" in his article regarding bridging between a suppressive PH/DS cycle and starting post cycle therapy (SERM usage).
The mildly androgenic 11 KT controls cortisol and estrogen levels, lessens bloat and allows the HPTA axis to begin to reset itself before you drop estrogen lowering bombs like Clomid/Nolva on it so that you can shorten the amount of time you have to take those drugs.
If PA is saying that it can be taken because it does not suppress HPTA axis. It does the exact opposite - \then:
The answer to the question do you need a SERM for PCT? Should be no.
OTC should be fine, and you really might not need that unless you bathe in dermacrine or decide to take the 11 Keto for a 5-6 month ride.
[video=youtube_share;_jl2Tgcbnb8]http://youtu.be/_jl2Tgcbnb8[/video]
What is all this jibberish?
I am guessing you mean Patrick Arnold when you say PA.
He mentions the "11 KT bridge" in his article regarding bridging between a suppressive PH/DS cycle and starting post cycle therapy (SERM usage).
The mildly androgenic 11 KT controls cortisol and estrogen levels, lessens bloat and allows the HPTA axis to begin to reset itself before you drop estrogen lowering bombs like Clomid/Nolva on it so that you can shorten the amount of time you have to take those drugs.
If PA is saying that it can be taken because it does not suppress HPTA axis. It does the exact opposite - \then:
The answer to the question do you need a SERM for PCT? Should be no.
OTC should be fine, and you really might not need that unless you bathe in dermacrine or decide to take the 11 Keto for a 5-6 month ride.
[video=youtube_share;_jl2Tgcbnb8]http://youtu.be/_jl2Tgcbnb8[/video]
john.patterson
Well-known member
I agree with the rest of the advice, I would use a SERM to follow an 11-keto cycle. I would also recommend a natural test booster to take along side a SERM, like Sup3r PCT or Alphamax XT. Alphamax XT contains ingredients that can help increase/balance your natural test levels, as well as a natural AI to limit cortisol and estrogen.
I always recommend to overdo a PCT and be safe, rather than half-ass a PCT and hope that your body will recover properly. There are some solid otc PCT products that can be beneficial, but I would always keep a SERM as the base in a PCT protocol.
I always recommend to overdo a PCT and be safe, rather than half-ass a PCT and hope that your body will recover properly. There are some solid otc PCT products that can be beneficial, but I would always keep a SERM as the base in a PCT protocol.
Toff
Well-known member
nah, low dose 125mg 11-keto transdermal, for 6 weeks and dermacrine towards the end at just 1 squirt a day - not bathing in it, just cutting atm.
We really are talking low dose here, probably equiv to 300mg of oral daily which is listed as no pct required.
Ive gone with Rebirth as the reviews of people using harsher compounds and review on here showing complete recovery from 5 compounds is good news to hear.
11keto has literally zero toxicity so Im wanting a l ow toxicity pct to go with it.
We really are talking low dose here, probably equiv to 300mg of oral daily which is listed as no pct required.
Ive gone with Rebirth as the reviews of people using harsher compounds and review on here showing complete recovery from 5 compounds is good news to hear.
11keto has literally zero toxicity so Im wanting a l ow toxicity pct to go with it.
kelso312
Member
I agree with most of the other posters in this thread. 11-Keto is minimally suppressive even alongside Dermacrine use; therefore, the OTC/PCT products mentioned would be perfect for your situation.
You dont need to run a SERM. You should have one on hand whenever you run a cycle. But there is no need to use something that strong with a compound that is minimally suppressive.
OP Have a good run.
RKIII
Last edited:
cubsfan815
Well-known member
I think you missread John's post. He was stating that you can run Alphamax XT alongside a SERM. Since Alphamax XT helps to reduce cortisol and estrogen, promote lean mass, better sleep, increase in free test, etc. It is helpful alongside the SERM.
TrainerTone
Well-known member
Very good info indeed
kelso312
Member
I did indeed. Apologies John. I have edited my reply.
ELROCK
Well-known member
I agree with you, but if you are someone who is very sensitive to Clomid sides you would understand not wanting to use it after a mild cycle. The emotional sides can be debilitating even at very low doses for some. Most people won't have much of a problem and if you are someone in that category it would be stupid not to use Clomid because it absolutely works.
Daycrawler
Well-known member
125mg transdermal? I mean, it's probably not needed but Rebirth is probably fine for your needs. If you were running the high dose of 500mg+ you'd need something stronger likely.
11kt is great stuff
HIT4ME
Well-known member
JEBrook pointed out the majority of the issues. Some other potential sides: Cancer, vision problems, and some other issues. The thing is, most of these issues come from long-term and continued use. For instance, the vision problems with Nolva usually take a month or longer to appear if you are taking 50+ mg/day (which is a big dose). They all have specific side effects that you should be aware of and should research the individual compound you decide to use. It is good to know the unlikely side effects, just so you can catch an issue early on if you get unlucky and respond poorly. If suddenly you get blurry vision on 20 mg a day and don't realize the Nolva could cause it...even though it is unlikely - then you may continue to do damage.
This pretty much sums it up for 99% of the cases. I would never hesitate to use a SERM unless I've tried it and had some specific side that I couldn't handle. Always have one on hand BEFORE starting a cycle.
Don't mistake 11-Oxo for 11-KT. 300 mg of 11-Oxo doesn't require PCT. 11-Oxo, however, converts to 11-KT at a much lower rate than what you would take orally. I would bet that your math is off, without data other than personal experience to back it up. 250-375 mg of 11-KT transdermally had an effect that was very similar to 1000-1200 mg of 11-Oxo orally for me.
125 mg with no SERM may be fine (but I still recommend a SERM to be safe), especially if you can get blood work. If you want to avoid toxicity, then get blood work to confirm and you will at least know you are back to normal, or not.
Jebrook
Well-known member
I agree with those points as well.
john.patterson
Well-known member
Precisely.
kelso312
Member
I am going to pull a 180 here. OP should get an actual SERM for this cycle.
l I would but probably just run IL's Vertus and Invictus (AI/Cortisol Control) low dose the whole way through and also as a PCT and not use a SERM unless I felt suppressed afterwards. That is me,
You, if you have not run a SERM before, use this opportunity to:
A. Find a good company to buy them from
B. See how you tolerate it like El Rock, Jebrook, John et all are saying.
So if you do run something a bit stronger you are not using your SERM source for the first time and you know that you are not going to react poorly with what compound you choose to run in PCT.
l I would but probably just run IL's Vertus and Invictus (AI/Cortisol Control) low dose the whole way through and also as a PCT and not use a SERM unless I felt suppressed afterwards. That is me,
You, if you have not run a SERM before, use this opportunity to:
A. Find a good company to buy them from
B. See how you tolerate it like El Rock, Jebrook, John et all are saying.
So if you do run something a bit stronger you are not using your SERM source for the first time and you know that you are not going to react poorly with what compound you choose to run in PCT.
AntM1564
Legend
I am just going to say use a SERM and if you'd like to use an OTC product in addition to that, then be my guest. No matter how mild the cycle, I always believe in running a SERM. If you want to throw in an OTC product with the SERM, the two I would suggest are AlphaMax XT or OL Sup3r PCT. Not saying other products in here that were mentioned are not as good, but I like the fact that both of those are essentially all in one products that will have you covered from all angles. Another product I would add to your SERM and either one of those OTC products is X-Gels. X-Gels will be great with maintaining any strength gained from your cycle.
I would also suggest an ergogenic aid such as Powermax XT. After your cycle, you recovery may not be as quick as it would be on cycle. PowerMax XT has your recovery covered with 5 grams of creatine, 2.5 grams of betaine and 2.5 grams of L-Alanyl L-Glutamine. Creatine, and betaine are also great performance enhancers. The profile as a whole will improve strength as well. Betaine is also great for body composition.
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I would also suggest an ergogenic aid such as Powermax XT. After your cycle, you recovery may not be as quick as it would be on cycle. PowerMax XT has your recovery covered with 5 grams of creatine, 2.5 grams of betaine and 2.5 grams of L-Alanyl L-Glutamine. Creatine, and betaine are also great performance enhancers. The profile as a whole will improve strength as well. Betaine is also great for body composition.
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