Lost strength- sumo deadlift

max d

Member
Anyone ever lose 100 lbs off their deadlift while continuously lifting but at lighter weights? I have always worked out with 65-75% of my deadlift max which always felt heavy but when it came time to max I was able to go full throttle. I've switched to sumo for the last year and put in my working sets around the same weights and feels the same as toughness but my max is nowhere near what it was. I tried going back to conventional that same session I maxed out to see if I could still pull my old max but couldn't move it. My body weight is only down 15 lbs from when I hit my previous max but I never thought it would go down almost 100lbs. Trying to hit 500 below 175. I like sumo and my body is more fit for it (long legs short torso) but thinking about switching back as I just can seem to pull the same max even though my working sets are good. I'm going to start doing heavy wide box squats for a month or two to see if that helps with my sumo. Seems like it would have good cross over for the bottom of the sumo. Any tips or thoughts are appreciated!
 
max d said:
Anyone ever lose 100 lbs off their deadlift while continuously lifting but at lighter weights?
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Yes. I seemed to have dropped over time, my intensity and without realizing lost about #100. A year ago I was pulling in the neighborhood of #610. Whilst I worked pretty hard on deads all year, albeit less weight (which makes sense actually) I gradually lost power to pull heavier.
I too lost about #20 pounds BW, so I do feel "some" of that, not all, was a reason as well. BW and strength with me, are a bit connected.
Over time I pulled back on squatting heavier as well and I think my pos chain just slowly adapted to less stress.
I think for me anyway (since I cannot speak for you) I was working pretty hard and intense on my DL for a few years. I got a few niggles and as time went on decreased the intensity (even though I felt I was hitting it quite hard) but I think being in the upper register of my strength potentials for my age (55-57) as I said, I lost ground without knowing I was backing off slowly and weekly for almost a year.
 
You probably are a better puller technique wise with conventional pulling. If you haven't trained conventional at all really for a year.. you're going to be out of practice and technique breaks down at heavier weights. 100# is a lot but I guarantee it is most likely a technique or injury related issue. Do you have a long term progression set up in your training? In one year of pulling 65% to 75% should be significantly higher than it was the previous year. Even if you are already strong. Basically didn't do any heavy pulling for 9 months because of injury and pr'd by 15lbs after I felt better by just focusing on training my squat and still doing some technique work. Technique is king.
 
Yeah I guess I just need to figure out if I want to go forward with the sumo and figure out where I'm going wrong/improve the bottom or switch back to conventional and just start doing heavy singles. I worked up to my working sets for 5/3/1 (my deadlift working max and real max on here have always been way different) on sumo to what I used to do on conventional so I thought the crossover would be there but I guess not. I'm going to stick with sumo a little bit more with heavy singles and working on wide stance squats to see if that helps with my sumo too, but if I do see material improvement it's back to conventional. Thanks guys!
 
I am a much stronger puller sumo but almost every other deadlift session is more focused on conventional for me. Train both. Get stronger all around. Why would you switch to only one when you are not sure what you are better at? Try to perfect your technique with both. I would just stick with whatever normal squats you're doing. I squat with a relatively close stance and I made a lot of improvement without training the deadlift heavy over the course of my injury. And wide stance squats + sumo pulls will put a lot of stress on your hips and the movements aren't really that close at all. That ultra-wide squat has destroyed many raw lifters I know. I wouldn't recommend.
 
max d said:
I like sumo and my body is more fit for it (long legs short torso)
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This caught my eye at first. but I was waiting to see if someone else commented.
I have always thought it was kinda the opposite at least with the torso and I suppose arms can be a factor. My arms/hand clenched, hit me about mid to a bit upper thigh. Some guys hands are up around waist level.

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Now that being said, it may very well be a preference issue moreso and or more specific to individual lifters, as to what is best say, or most efficient for them.
I just always thought good squatters made good sumo pullers. Me on the other hand, my conventional pull on a good day is about #150-#175 above my squat. Now I do understand too, I put more time in on the DL, so maybe the squat suffers a little neglect too!?
 
PaulBlack said:
This caught my eye at first. but I was waiting to see if someone else commented.
I have always thought it was kinda the opposite at least with the torso and I suppose arms can be a factor. My arms/hand clenched, hit me about mid to a bit upper thigh. Some guys hands are up around waist level.

Now that being said, it may very well be a preference issue moreso and or more specific to individual lifters, as to what is best say, or most efficient for them.
I just always thought good squatters made good sumo pullers. Me on the other hand, my conventional pull on a good day is about #150-#175 above my squat. Now I do understand too, I put more time in on the DL, so maybe the squat suffers a little neglect too!?
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I never found the whole "my body is more fit for this because x or y singular thing" to be very accurate. Lots and lots of more factors at play than just a simple thing like that. And comparatively my squat is garbage. I've hit 555*2 somewhat easily recently but after basically not training my deadlift for close to a year I was able to pull 675. That was a 15lb pr after not pulling more than 550 sumo for around 8 months. I think personal preference and training both movements is a good idea. If you're stronger all around... you'll just be straight up stronger.
 
enraged_chris said:
I think personal preference and training both movements is a good idea. If you're stronger all around... you'll just be straight up stronger.
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Right, I totally see what you're saying and I am aware of quite a few guys who pull both pretty well and get carryover from doing both.
I also think some people do better with less to focus on, or do better concentrating on pretty much a pet lift and certain assistance that gives them more specific carryover and makes that specific lift a standout for them.
And to add, I do think body structures (especially if they are rather pronounced) have some impact on certain lifters leverages.
 
PaulBlack said:
Right, I totally see what you're saying and I am aware of quite a few guys who pull both pretty well and get carryover from doing both.
I also think some people do better with less to focus on, or do better concentrating on pretty much a pet lift and certain assistance that gives them more specific carryover and makes that specific lift a standout for them.
And to add, I do think body structures (especially if they are rather pronounced) have some impact on certain lifters leverages.
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Don't get me wrong. They definitely have an influence but there is so much going on that trying to break it down into a very simple x body party does Y when your whole body is working in concert won't work out well
 
I have long femurs which means with conventional I have a longer path to pull than with sumo. Good squatters have short femurs which means they have less distance. Combine short femur with long torso and arms equates to a short conventional pull. On the other hand I'm a like a t-Rex trying to deadlift ha. Personally I started focusing on sumo just because of the shorter path which I thought would equate to hitting my goal sooner. I ditched conventional as I am the type that goes full bore on something and run with it. All or nothing, which has not paid off this time. I will hold off on the wide squats as I did them last night and i feel pretty beat up today so I will gladly stick to my normal stance on that note. Thanks again for the comments guys
 
To back what Chris said, almost all the sumo guys I know put a good amount of work into conventional pulls still (floor, blocks, rack) or at least a lot of stiff-legged sumo. The low back has to get stronger to progress it, but actually doing the comp sumo pull w chest up and hips wedged in hard doesn't really build that musculature like conventional. Having avoided conventional for an extended period, it's not surprising that fell off some (to say nothing of having zero technical work on conventional for a year).

Train em both, either in rotated blocks or every other session or even both in same week if recovery is there. However you like, but spend some time conventional and it will feed both of them.
 
Dunno if i posted this in this thread or another one, but I'll just piggy back off what Hyde said. I rotate 6-12 week blocks of conventional and sumo depending on the training phase/whether or not I have a comp coming up (sumo is my stronger and thus competition form). But, even in my sumo blocks I still do conventional rdl/sldls for the very reason Hyde just said - the low back and hams are still imperative to build a big sumo pull.
 
I used to do my 531 sets with conventional and my rep work with sumo but couldn't pull max weight in sumo. Don't know if I wanna do blocks of each or attempt to lift low reps 2x week (1 sumo 1 con). I've never done that before but might try and see how my body holds up.
 
Hyde said:
To back what Chris said, almost all the sumo guys I know put a good amount of work into conventional pulls still (floor, blocks, rack) or at least a lot of stiff-legged sumo. The low back has to get stronger to progress it, but actually doing the comp sumo pull w chest up and hips wedged in hard doesn't really build that musculature like conventional. Having avoided conventional for an extended period, it's not surprising that fell off some (to say nothing of having zero technical work on conventional for a year).

Train em both, either in rotated blocks or every other session or even both in same week if recovery is there. However you like, but spend some time conventional and it will feed both of them.
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Outstanding post
 
Yes good post and...

Hyde said:
Train em both, either in rotated blocks or every other session or even both in same week if recovery is there. However you like, but spend some time conventional and it will feed both of them.
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Since I am not real sumo trained, I have to ask some of you guys who are or even do both..., which one do you feel has better carryover to the other?
I am swayed to feel that "conventional" (for more lumbar activation) would help (even if static) sumo pulling, more than sumo would help conventional, but as I said, I might just be acting bias or pig headed!?
 
PaulBlack said:
Yes good post and...



Since I am not real sumo trained, I have to ask some of you guys who are or even do both..., which one do you feel has better carryover to the other?
I am swayed to feel that "conventional" (for more lumbar activation) would help (even if static) sumo pulling, more than sumo would help conventional, but as I said, I might just be acting bias or pig headed!?
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Conventional definitely has way more carryover. Currently because of a hip that loves to get injured if overused I'm training mostly conventional and my sumo is still doing great. The other is not true. Also squat will have a lot of carryover to both. I'm doing most of my heavy leg work squatting, not deadlifting currently.
 
I am not a sumo guy. I am truly built for conv w a thick build and long arms.

Virtually all top sumo guys still do some kind of conv work, but many top conv guys do not do regular sumo training, so I think that is very telling, regarding carryover.
 
Hyde said:
I am not a sumo guy. I am truly built for conv w a thick build and long arms.

Virtually all top sumo guys still do some kind of conv work, but many top conv guys do not do regular sumo training, so I think that is very telling, regarding carryover.
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Agree 100%
 
enraged_chris said:
Also squat will have a lot of carryover to both.
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It certainly does for me.

Hyde said:
Virtually all top sumo guys still do some kind of conv work, but many top conv guys do not do regular sumo training, so I think that is very telling, regarding carryover.
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This seems to reflect what I see as well.
I seem to get better work from higher rep RDL's or even maybe GM's
 
For deadlift I almost always do sub maximal work and speed work. I'm very rarely close to 90% in my training. Takes too much out of me and I can get as much progress without hitting the deadlift too heavy.
 
enraged_chris said:
For deadlift I almost always do sub maximal work and speed work. I'm very rarely close to 90% in my training. Takes too much out of me and I can get as much progress without hitting the deadlift too heavy.
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I think I'm going lighter myself. 90 percent and above taxes the hell out of me. I'm going to do heavy rack pulls.
 
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