Help a keto noob!

[ma70]

I've done some basic research online, but I find that it mostly applies to the general audience and not the athletic/bodybuilding crowd who's interested in getting ripped so I want to get it from the source from people here. I've been doing intermittent fasting for YEARS, all kinds of variants. 8 Hour Window, 9 Hour Window, 12 Hour Window, 5/2, and while my next try is going to be the "EOD"/alternate day fasting diet I want to get people's input here on various ketogenic diets. I like carbs, and I can eat them (and a lot of them) with almost no consequence, but I've always maintained bodyfat levels of 12-15% (lately, been sitting on more of the high end of that range) and in October I plan on dieting down to lose a lot of weight for a challenge and get "ripped" for the first time. I feel the best solution would probably be a CKD diet where most days are ketogenic/low carb followed by a refeed. Do you guys structure your workouts in a specific pattern or do you guys just do whatever and deal with it? I've tried ketogenic diets before with less of an understanding and I've never managed to find my performance to be anywhere as good as if I stick to my normal IF style.

 

[john.patterson]

If you can handle carbs well, then I think it might be wise to try reducing carbs first and carb cycling to drop some body fat first. Keto is an extreme method, and it definitely has an impact on training intensity. I utilize a CKD diet toward the end of a cut when calories get very low. Keto is a great way to feel full throughout the day, and being in keto takes away that "brain fog" that most feel when dieting on a lower carb diet with low calories.

There are different ways to set up your training on CKD. I usually keep my training similar and do a 5 day split, but my workouts toward the end of the week before my refeed suck. Literally suck. Once you begin to deplete muscle glycogen with heavy training throughout the week, lifting heavy becomes very difficult. I do my refeeds Friday into Saturday, and my Thursday and Friday morning lifts are always very challenging, and I feel weak.

The only difference in training that you need to incorporate would be a carb depletion workout before the refeed. Other than that you can keep your training style the same. But from what you've said above, and your current stats, I would use other methods of dieting first before implementing keto. You can get much leaner by simply lowering calories and carbs a bit, and keep keto in your back pocket as an option for the final stages of your cut

 

[ma70]

The only difference in training that you need to incorporate would be a carb depletion workout before the refeed. Other than that you can keep your training style the same. But from what you've said above, and your current stats, I would use other methods of dieting first before implementing keto. You can get much leaner by simply lowering calories and carbs a bit, and keep keto in your back pocket as an option for the final stages of your cut

Oh interesting. For some reason, I always thought the carb depletion workout was at the beginning of the week right AFTER the refeed, and not right before it. This really helps me a lot actually, because I've always been worried about my performance since I usually train like an athlete (main compound lifts focusing on fast concentrics, high frequency, etc). I guess I can get my performance workouts done early on in the week then do some kind of carb depletion workouts towards the end right before my refeed. Do you normally keep refeeds for workout days or whenever it fits into the schedule?

Also, I wasn't planning on immediately jumping into CKD as I know it's mostly a plataeu buster for the leaner guys. I've dieted down to 12% pretty normally but I mostly started this up because I hear the jump from 12 to 10 (or lower) is very hard (I've never been lower than 12%). Your advice is always appreciated!

 

[LeanEngineer]

Can't say too much more than what john patterson already said. take his advice and run with it.

 

[john.patterson]

Oh interesting. For some reason, I always thought the carb depletion workout was at the beginning of the week right AFTER the refeed, and not right before it. This really helps me a lot actually, because I've always been worried about my performance since I usually train like an athlete (main compound lifts focusing on fast concentrics, high frequency, etc). I guess I can get my performance workouts done early on in the week then do some kind of carb depletion workouts towards the end right before my refeed. Do you normally keep refeeds for workout days or whenever it fits into the schedule?

Also, I wasn't planning on immediately jumping into CKD as I know it's mostly a plataeu buster for the leaner guys. I've dieted down to 12% pretty normally but I mostly started this up because I hear the jump from 12 to 10 (or lower) is very hard (I've never been lower than 12%). Your advice is always appreciated!

You want to keep as much muscle glycogen as possible after a refeed to fuel your workouts for the week. You enter ketosis once your liver glycogen is depleted, so the idea behind CKD is to carb up, give your muscles a ton of glycogen, and then cut do strict keto (<15-20g carbs) the first day or two after your refeed so your liver glycogen depletes and your body begins to produce ketones for fuel. This way, your muscles still have stored glycogen for training, but your body is using fat as fuel for daily functions.

The idea behind it is great, and the first few days of keto after a refeed are great. My workouts are still intense and I feel fine because you'll have stored muscle glycogen. But after the first few days of intense training, the muscle glycogen depletes and you feel like a pansy in the gym.

To answer your questions though, when I do CKD I usually keep my refeeds on Friday into Saturday. I do a depletion workout Friday afternoon, and start hitting carbs Friday evening into Saturday. I usually aim to put down about 700-800g carbs during my refeed, and keep fats as low as possible. Saturday is used as a rest/recovery day. Then Sunday I usually fast for the first half of the day (to deplete liver glycogen) and start eating strict keto from there out until the refeed again the next Friday. Its an interesting diet to experiment with, but it definitely isn't optimal for gym performance.

I just ended a 6 week CKD diet yesterday actually. I'll throw keto in from time to time for fun, because its fun to eat super high fat foods and change my diet up a bit while getting leaner.