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Arginine better then nitrates lol ?? I guess so

I'm really not in the mood to watch an hour long video, but...

For healthy young individuals (the target demographic of pre-workout supplements), an effective dose of nitrates will yield more acute ergogenic benefits than any dose of l-arginine or AAKG. Things change in non-heathy populations, but that isn't really relevant for most of us. Also, l-citrulline performs better than l-arginine in many, many studies.

Arginine is pretty much useless for us pre-workout, unless it's something like arginine nitrate (but that's the nitrates we want), or arginine peptides (but citrulline peptides are even better).
 
muscleupcrohn said:
I'm really not in the mood to watch an hour long video, but...

For healthy young individuals (the target demographic of pre-workout supplements), an effective dose of nitrates will yield more acute ergogenic benefits than any dose of l-arginine or AAKG. Things change in non-heathy populations, but that isn't really relevant for most of us. Also, l-citrulline performs better than l-arginine in many, many studies.

Arginine is pretty much useless for us pre-workout, unless it's something like arginine nitrate (but that's the nitrates we want), or arginine peptides (but citrulline peptides are even better).
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It's only 20 mins bro start on the hour mark he goes threw the research you posted but makes some good points man
 
And he also states that older people are the only knew who get hold benefits and all the young kids take g it get way less benefits by far
 
jakecake said:
And he also states that older people are the only knew who get hold benefits and all the young kids take g it get way less benefits by far
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Yeah, arginine benefits elderly and/or unhealthy populations more than it does heathy young individuals. For us youngish lifters, arginine is pretty useless, hence why we use citrulline and/or nitrates, which provide us with ergogenic benefits. Extrapolating data from one population to another is a huge no-no, haha.
 
jakecake said:
Hey what do you think about collagen proteins ? Not comparing to ISO but maybe whey and if there worth it
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For what purpose? As a useful protein powder source, I'd go either with whey or a blend (like Select or something) or pea protein, which has been shown to be pretty much equivalent to whey.
 
Arginine and Citrulline were mentioned because the body can regulate the pathways that those two produce NO from, cancelling any possible negative effects. The body can't do that with ingested KNO3. He wasn't saying (and I've listened to it twice now, but maybe I need a 3rd?) that the absolute best pump will come from Arginine to the best of my recollection. That whole podcast basically laid out what is known, that there is a lot of unknown, that there is a definite performance increase with KNO3, that there is a definite downside, and maybe you want to use it sparingly before 1RM's, Comps, etc...
 
The_Old_Guy said:
Arginine and Citrulline were mentioned because the body can regulate the pathways that those two produce NO from, cancelling any possible negative effects. The body can't do that with ingested KNO3. He wasn't saying (and I've listened to it twice now, but maybe I need a 3rd?) that the absolute best pump will come from Arginine to the best of my recollection. That whole podcast basically laid out what is known, that there is a lot of unknown, that there is a definite performance increase with KNO3, that there is a definite downside, and maybe you want to use it sparingly before 1RM's, Comps, etc...
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That's what I got from it too
 
The_Old_Guy said:
Arginine and Citrulline were mentioned because the body can regulate the pathways that those two produce NO from, cancelling any possible negative effects. The body can't do that with ingested KNO3. He wasn't saying (and I've listened to it twice now, but maybe I need a 3rd?) that the absolute best pump will come from Arginine to the best of my recollection. That whole podcast basically laid out what is known, that there is a lot of unknown, that there is a definite performance increase with KNO3, that there is a definite downside, and maybe you want to use it sparingly before 1RM's, Comps, etc...
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Except it rarely increases NO in humans with no issues with that pathway.
 
Jiigzz said:
Except it rarely increases NO in humans with no issues with that pathway.
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If you get an hour, listen to it and give your take-away. I don't think NO or Pump does Jack (and it happens without me taking anything when I (not often) do high reps/low rest), so I don't chase it. I got a free bottle of KNO3 product and took it and didn't notice anything amazing, but I lift usually 1-3 and 4-7 with 3-5min rest. After the interview I tossed the bottle. The interview was more about possible downsides to KNO3, and less "Take Arginine". I just use Cit/Mal for the other benefits and take whatever "pump" comes along for the ride.
 
The_Old_Guy said:
If you get an hour, listen to it and give your take-away. I don't think NO or Pump does Jack (and it happens without me taking anything when I (not often) do high reps/low rest), so I don't chase it. I got a free bottle of KNO3 product and took it and didn't notice anything amazing, but I lift usually 1-3 and 4-7 with 3-5min rest. After the interview I tossed the bottle. The interview was more about possible downsides to KNO3, and less "Take Arginine". I just use Cit/Mal for the other benefits and take whatever "pump" comes along for the ride.
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Haha, yeeeeeaahhh maybe. I've read a fair chunk of the research on dietary nitrates that pertain to performance and BP, and a little on their carcinogenic properties, but TBH on the whole, they are quite safe.
 
Jiigzz said:
Haha, yeeeeeaahhh maybe. I've read a fair chunk of the research on dietary nitrates that pertain to performance and BP, and a little on their carcinogenic properties, but TBH on the whole, they are quite safe.
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We know short term not long term effects though man
 
Not true this goes for alot of them but nitrates specifically are new to the supplement game well not new but all of the sudden popular
 
Jiigzz said:
Haha, yeeeeeaahhh maybe. I've read a fair chunk of the research on dietary nitrates that pertain to performance and BP, and a little on their carcinogenic properties, but TBH on the whole, they are quite safe.
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He also mentions the negative effects of down-regulated steroidogenesis, quick tolerance build up, decreases in mitochondrial density and efficiency (the nitrates are essentially providing the means of compensating for that deficit over time; the question is via what mechanism/would be interesting if there was some sort of dissociation of O2 at work among other mechanisms) and a propensity to not rebound back to normal levels following cessation of supplementation over several months.

He does not really states that L-Arginine is a particularly effective vasodilator in the young athletic population, but he mentions how this pathway is more regulated that the nitrate-nitrite pathway. Therefore, supplemental L-Arginine may possibly lead to a normalization of NO production. I'm not sure if he specifically mentioned that this is also true for L-Citrulline, but I would assume that it does as it is in the same cycle.

Maybe Arginine-Nitrate would prevent tolerance build up and the subsequent down-regulated production after cessation. My primary concern the is down-regulated steroidogenesis over a prolonged period of time. This concern together with potentially concurrent PDE down-regulation would be worse.
 
jakecake said:
Not true this goes for alot of them but nitrates specifically are new to the supplement game well not new but all of the sudden popular
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They have human trials, that is more than most things have. And they're not that new.

avega17 said:
He also mentions the negative effects of down-regulated steroidogenesis, quick tolerance build up, decreases in mitochondrial density and efficiency (the nitrates are essentially providing the means of compensating for that deficit over time; the question is via what mechanism/would be interesting if there was some sort of dissociation of O2 at work among other mechanisms) and a propensity to not rebound back to normal levels following cessation of supplementation over several months.

He does not really states that L-Arginine is a particularly effective vasodilator in the young athletic population, but he mentions how this pathway is more regulated that the nitrate-nitrite pathway. Therefore, supplemental L-Arginine may possibly lead to a normalization of NO production. I'm not sure if he specifically mentioned that this is also true for L-Citrulline, but I would assume that it does as it is in the same cycle.

Maybe Arginine-Nitrate would prevent tolerance build up and the subsequent down-regulated production after cessation. My primary concern the is down-regulated steroidogenesis over a prolonged period of time. This concern together with potentially concurrent PDE down-regulation would be worse.
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Thanks!

Interesting as well. I'll dig a little deeper on the down-regulated steroidogenesis.
 
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