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change in norcodrene?

Hockeyaus33 said:
Actually..... companies are not going lighter on stims because of the FDA. It seems to be the opposite. We have a company suing the FDA and tons of companies are following. About once a week I hear of a company reintroducing DMAA back into their product.
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Fighting doesn't mean winning, nor does it imply legality. I have no idea of the intricacies of this particular case, but I am following it intently as I'm sure others are as well.

Remember this, other companies are putting DMAA back in BECAUSE of Hi Techs lawsuit and they know that they have time to push sales while it is still around. The FDA will fight back hard on this one.

Maybe De__eB could add more. He's my goto for anything related to this
 
Jiigzz said:
Fighting doesn't mean winning, nor does it imply legality. I have no idea of the intricacies of this particular case, but I am following it intently as I'm sure others are as well.

Remember this, other companies are putting DMAA back in BECAUSE of Hi Techs lawsuit and they know that they have time to push sales while it is still around. The FDA will fight back hard on this one.

Maybe De__eB could add more. He's my goto for anything related to this
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All of what you said is true. However I do think it's a little too early to jump the gun and say companies are moving towards more conservative stim formulas. I would argue that the most conservative era was directly after the DS Craze ban before the amp citrate explosion when there was no craze, no DMAA, no amp citrate, practically nothing but higenamine, caffeine and hordenine. But, now we are starting to see a huge explosion in high stim formulations once again with the reintroduction of DMAA, introduction of 2-amino-isoheptane or w/e its called, eria jenesis (sp?).

my point being, lets not let PES justify mediocre stim formulas with "well this is the direction the industry is headed". Lets call it what it is.... PES has chosen to take the conservative route.

Now, I could eat my words here in a few months because I have not yet seen their new preworkout thats in the making. But im basing this off of the norco change. We'll see. PES is still one of my fav brands.
 
Hockeyaus33 said:
All of what you said is true. However I do think it's a little too early to jump the gun and say companies are moving towards more conservative stim formulas. I would argue that the most conservative era was directly after the DS Craze ban before the amp citrate explosion when there was no craze, no DMAA, no amp citrate, practically nothing but higenamine, caffeine and hordenine. But, now we are starting to see a huge explosion in high stim formulations once again with the reintroduction of DMAA, introduction of 2-amino-isoheptane or w/e its called, eria jenesis (sp?).

my point being, lets not let PES justify mediocre stim formulas with "well this is the direction the industry is headed". Lets call it what it is.... PES has chosen to take the conservative route.

Now, I could eat my words here in a few months because I have not yet seen their new preworkout thats in the making. But im basing this off of the norco change. We'll see. PES is still one of my fav brands.
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Many of these new designer stims are not compliant - there may exist some arguments for one, but that data has not been shared with me.

They will likely befall the same fate as DMAA did and maybe once this case is over.
 
Jiigzz said:
Many of these new designer stims are not compliant - there may exist some arguments for one, but that data has not been shared with me.

They will likely befall the same fate as DMAA did and maybe once this case is over.
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yeah the DMAA suit will be the turning point in future preworkout supplementation.
 
Synapsin said:
There is an important take home message from my post and I am afraid most people will skip it: it's that the product works for what it's intended use is: improved body composition, while providing mood enhancement. This product is a supplement, not a magical cure. This product honestly works great, and feels great. The product was not reformulated for any other primary reason other than more human studies showing improved body composition while accounting for more mood enhancement. The reason I included reasons #1 and 2 are because they were minute factors (less than 10% of the reason), but factors nonetheless. I have always been honest and upfront with the AM crew about the reason for changes, and not many people are willing to do that on the forums.
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^^^ you guys seem to be ignoring this
 
Wouldn't mind trying Norcodrene at hopefully Insider deal prices before knocking it out completely.
 
Synapsin said:
^^^ you guys seem to be ignoring this
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Not ignoring this, and like that spin on it - but Kola Nut was in all the worthless fat burners in the 90's, Chromium Picolinate was too. Caffeine is effective, but in every other product. So, we are left with Lemon Balm, L-Theanine and Aframomum as the ingredients worth looking at.

I personally get very little from L-Theanine, so I'm biased on that.

Aframomum is a somewhat novel compound, but it is available in Shift, although I think double dosing Shift could be acceptable. I like this ingredient, but it seems to be the ONLY ingredient in the new formula that I know is novel and works.

Lemon Balm - this could be interesting. I have no experience with it, maybe it's a game changer?

Again, when you do the full write-up, maybe I'll change my mind. I would be surprised if this was a sufficient stand-alone product like Norcodrene OG was. But, I'm often wrong. I've made a career of it.
 
Hockeyaus33 said:
All of what you said is true. However I do think it's a little too early to jump the gun and say companies are moving towards more conservative stim formulas. I would argue that the most conservative era was directly after the DS Craze ban before the amp citrate explosion when there was no craze, no DMAA, no amp citrate, practically nothing but higenamine, caffeine and hordenine. But, now we are starting to see a huge explosion in high stim formulations once again with the reintroduction of DMAA, introduction of 2-amino-isoheptane or w/e its called, eria jenesis (sp?).

my point being, lets not let PES justify mediocre stim formulas with "well this is the direction the industry is headed". Lets call it what it is.... PES has chosen to take the conservative route.

Now, I could eat my words here in a few months because I have not yet seen their new preworkout thats in the making. But im basing this off of the norco change. We'll see. PES is still one of my fav brands.
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Almost every company that plans to exist in 5 years is moving to legal stim formulas.

Hi-Tech happens to be big enough that even after legal expenses, they make more money by dragging this out than by complying now. They have no expectations to win.

The FDA will win on DMAA.

The FDA has also acted successfully on numerous other non-compliant stimulants since dmaa.
 
De__eB said:
Almost every company that plans to exist in 5 years is moving to legal stim formulas.

Hi-Tech happens to be big enough that even after legal expenses, they make more money by dragging this out than by complying now. They have no expectations to win.

The FDA will win on DMAA.

The FDA has also acted successfully on numerous other non-compliant stimulants since dmaa.
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A lot of people have been throwing around the words "legal" and "illegal" when it comes to supplements and stims. But when it comes to the FDA deciding what is legal and illegal does that necessarily mean that something they deem "illegal" doesn't work and is unsafe?

Personally, I still believe in ephedra, which is now "illegal" yet I'm sure at least half the members on here still purchase it from their local pharmacy, including me. DMAA seems that it is generally safe as long as you don't use it stupidly. Most call DMAA illegal.

My point is, many here are responding with an attitude that conveys conforming to the FDA because "we're law abiding". Which is perfectly fine. From a business standpoint it makes total sense but for those of us who have always liked companies pushing the envelope and pushing back at the FDA and some of their ridiculous guidelines, we have our own reasons to be bummed. To say that only companies using "legal" stims will be around in five years is funny. The supplement industry has been on this roller coaster ride since the early 90s.
 
No, them declaring it illegal doesnt mean it doesnt work, it just means it is illegal.

Also, lets not misrepresent things. The fda isnt just arbitrarily deciding these are illegal. They are objectively by the letter of the law illegal.

There will certainly be many companies still selling illegal stims in 5 years, but the ones doing it now are decidedly more at risk than those who arent of not existing in 5 years
 
De__eB said:
No, them declaring it illegal doesnt mean it doesnt work, it just means it is illegal.

Also, lets not misrepresent things. The fda isnt just arbitrarily deciding these are illegal. They are objectively by the letter of the law illegal.

There will certainly be many companies still selling illegal stims in 5 years, but the ones doing it now are decidedly more at risk than those who arent of not existing in 5 years
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Fair enough. I don't feel the FDA is arbitrarily deeming things illegal but does not one ounce of you believe that there might be other factors behind some of their decisions? I'm not trying to get all conspiracy theory-y on you all but seriously, could there not be other powers that be (*cough* pharma) behind endeavors to push or "lobby" the FDA into deciding an ingredient is illegal?

I feel that the homeopathic industry has been under attack for years, just like the supplement industry. Perhaps, it's from a fear that the public might realize that we don't need to pop a prescription drug for every little thing that ails us?
 
Sculptor said:
Fair enough. I don't feel the FDA is arbitrarily deeming things illegal but does not one ounce of you believe that there might be other factors behind some of their decisions? I'm not trying to get all conspiracy theory-y on you all but seriously, could there not be other powers that be (*cough* pharma) behind endeavors to push or "lobby" the FDA into deciding an ingredient is illegal?

I feel that the homeopathic industry has been under attack for years, just like the supplement industry. Perhaps, it's from a fear that the public might realize that we don't need to pop a prescription drug for every little thing that ails us?
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Pharma doesnt give a **** about stims, the fda/congresspeople go after those because its a great save the children item.

Does that suck? Sure. Does not liking it change the law? Nah.
 
Just to be clear, not saying anything about norcodrene past or present, just referring to industry trends overall.

I'm a fan of products with ingredients that are used at human studied effective doses.
 
Sculptor said:
Fair enough. I don't feel the FDA is arbitrarily deeming things illegal but does not one ounce of you believe that there might be other factors behind some of their decisions? I'm not trying to get all conspiracy theory-y on you all but seriously, could there not be other powers that be (*cough* pharma) behind endeavors to push or "lobby" the FDA into deciding an ingredient is illegal?

I feel that the homeopathic industry has been under attack for years, just like the supplement industry. Perhaps, it's from a fear that the public might realize that we don't need to pop a prescription drug for every little thing that ails us?
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DMAA is non compliant. These new stims for the most part are non compliant as well. That's not something made up because of Big Pharma, it's because these things don't exist in nature at quantities feasible enough to be extracted (if even at all) and were not sold as supplements prior to DSHEA.

Do you know how much data exists on some of these things? DMAA has safety data now thanks to USPlabs, but it was widely used before it was shown to be safe in the quantities we ingest - but what if it hadn't been deemed safe?

Homeopathic remedies are rubbish in comparison to a pharma drug. People assume thay because it exists in nature that it must be safe - huh? Where did that logic come from? Some of these remedies have no human clinical data to support them, yet people will turn away from a drug that has been through multiple clinical trials just because the other is "more natural".

But to be on topic, im not sure how this applies to PES as this formula never had DMAA in it.
 
Jiigzz said:
DMAA is non compliant. These new stims for the most part are non compliant as well. That's not something made up because of Big Pharma, it's because these things don't exist in nature at quantities feasible enough to be extracted (if even at all) and were not sold as supplements prior to DSHEA.

Do you know how much data exists on some of these things? DMAA has safety data now thanks to USPlabs, but it was widely used before it was shown to be safe in the quantities we ingest - but what if it hadn't been deemed safe?

Homeopathic remedies are rubbish in comparison to a pharma drug. People assume thay because it exists in nature that it must be safe - huh? Where did that logic come from? Some of these remedies have no human clinical data to support them, yet people will turn away from a drug that has been through multiple clinical trials just because the other is "more natural".

But to be on topic, im not sure how this applies to PES as this formula never had DMAA in it.
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LOL- this is just a great post and I like how you bring it from theory back to reality at the end.

Norcodrene DID have Higenamine though, which is lacking in the new formula, which may suggest it's a stim that is on the chopping block? Or maybe this will allow Norcodrene/Alphamine to stack better together. Actually, given the Alphamine/New Norcodrene/Shift ingredients, the overlap may be beneficial (Alphamine/Shift = olive leaf extract and Norco/Shift = Aframomum).

The other lacking ingredients from the old Norco are Cirsium and the Nomilean....both of which I would assume are DSHEA compliant? Maybe that's an incorrect assumption....but if they are, both of these ingredients were a big part of the old formula that could have carried forward and the Nomilean especially was heavily "sold" when the original formula came out.

Of course, there is always the issue of cost, and without a full write up, maybe there are stacking ideas or a direction we aren't seeing yet.
 
I personally like the change. As someone that's sensitive to stims (especially Y), theanine and lemon balm are a welcome addition. Look forward to giving it a try.
 
HIT4ME said:
LOL- this is just a great post and I like how you bring it from theory back to reality at the end.

Norcodrene DID have Higenamine though, which is lacking in the new formula, which may suggest it's a stim that is on the chopping block? Or maybe this will allow Norcodrene/Alphamine to stack better together. Actually, given the Alphamine/New Norcodrene/Shift ingredients, the overlap may be beneficial (Alphamine/Shift = olive leaf extract and Norco/Shift = Aframomum).

The other lacking ingredients from the old Norco are Cirsium and the Nomilean....both of which I would assume are DSHEA compliant? Maybe that's an incorrect assumption....but if they are, both of these ingredients were a big part of the old formula that could have carried forward and the Nomilean especially was heavily "sold" when the original formula came out.

Of course, there is always the issue of cost, and without a full write up, maybe there are stacking ideas or a direction we aren't seeing yet.
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I'm genuinely not sure why those ingredients were axed because my above post did not pertain to them at all.

It does seem a little more 'market appealing' to the masses, but you have to expect that with the direction the company is heading. It doesn't make the product inferior mind you, but increasee it broader appeal (and they mentioned allowing standardisation between countries which is hugely important).
 
The argument is the law is up for interpretation since its so broad and not very clear cut. Just because the FDA claims something is non-compliant or illegal doesn't always mean it is... Heres a good one! Invalid Link Removed If the FDA continues down that same path for other ingredients it could be very bad
 
Adizzle1 said:
The argument is the law is up for interpretation since its so broad and not very clear cut. Just because the FDA claims something is non-compliant or illegal doesn't always mean it is... Heres a good one! Invalid Link Removed If the FDA continues down that same path for other ingredients it could be very bad
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But AMP Citrate isn't compliant?
 
Adizzle1 said:
haha not that one, the next one.
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Oooohhhh, i'll read into it in a bit. Seems like an interesting argument. FWIW i'm not huge on all this regulation, but if I know we can't fight it then I have to learn it ;)
 
Woody said:
You did say most people would skip it... lol
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It's because I'm a wizard

De__eB said:
Just to be clear, not saying anything about norcodrene past or present, just referring to industry trends overall.

I'm a fan of products with ingredients that are used at human studied effective doses.
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Exactly.

HIT4ME said:
LOL- this is just a great post and I like how you bring it from theory back to reality at the end.

Norcodrene DID have Higenamine though, which is lacking in the new formula, which may suggest it's a stim that is on the chopping block? Or maybe this will allow Norcodrene/Alphamine to stack better together. Actually, given the Alphamine/New Norcodrene/Shift ingredients, the overlap may be beneficial (Alphamine/Shift = olive leaf extract and Norco/Shift = Aframomum).

The other lacking ingredients from the old Norco are Cirsium and the Nomilean....both of which I would assume are DSHEA compliant? Maybe that's an incorrect assumption....but if they are, both of these ingredients were a big part of the old formula that could have carried forward and the Nomilean especially was heavily "sold" when the original formula came out.

Of course, there is always the issue of cost, and without a full write up, maybe there are stacking ideas or a direction we aren't seeing yet.
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I doubt Higenamine is on the chopping block, but I personally found it to be a mediocre ingredient as far as human data went. Everything in the old profile was DSHEA compliant, but people fail to realize proper formulas are not just a mixture of random ingredients that work (regarding reformulating a product). It takes a delicate balance to create a good product (like the original norcodrene). We could have thrown in a bunch of ingredients into the new norcodrene, but we work on a more holistic approach of what compliments what. Like I said, wait until the write up comes before assuming too much friends. We would not have given the new product the norcodrene name if we didn't feel it lived up to the old one.

GIJane1928 said:
So is there anything in the old formula that is currently "illegal"
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No, not at all; we take compliance very very seriously.
 
Synapsin said:
It's because I'm a wizard



Exactly.



I doubt Higenamine is on the chopping block, but I personally found it to be a mediocre ingredient as far as human data went. Everything in the old profile was DSHEA compliant, but people fail to realize proper formulas are not just a mixture of random ingredients that work (regarding reformulating a product). It takes a delicate balance to create a good product (like the original norcodrene). We could have thrown in a bunch of ingredients into the new norcodrene, but we work on a more holistic approach of what compliments what. Like I said, wait until the write up comes before assuming too much friends. We would not have given the new product the norcodrene name if we didn't feel it lived up to the old one.



No, not at all; we take compliance very very seriously.
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I hear ya Synapsin. And I trust you and appreciate your candor. But I am still skeptical...Norcodrene was probably one of very few products that did ANYTHING for fat loss. Most are worthless. The new formula may be great, or it may be another in a long line of ineffective fat burners. And human studies are great, but there are plenty of human studies that show promise but still don't work in the real world. If this formula fails, it will be a really sad path for a great product. If it works, or is better, I will be happy if course.

And I know your reasoning is probably sound, which is why I will probably buy a bottle anyway and give it a try ...
 
Thank you for your honesty sir, we always need to hear all the opinions of our customers.

I'm glad you're going to try a bottle, I look forward to hearing your thoughts
 
Driven2lift said:
Thank you for your honesty sir, we always need to hear all the opinions of our customers.

I'm glad you're going to try a bottle, I look forward to hearing your thoughts
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Lol, I have no reason to lie...and PES hasn't done me wrong in any way. I have been pleasantly surprised before with PES. The formula, on paper, just looks like a downgrade to me. But like I have said. I've made a career of being wrong ��
 
Adizzle1 said:
The argument is the law is up for interpretation since its so broad and not very clear cut. Just because the FDA claims something is non-compliant or illegal doesn't always mean it is... Heres a good one! Invalid Link Removed If the FDA continues down that same path for other ingredients it could be very bad
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Wow, the synephrine argument is just stupid. That would be bad.
 
HIT4ME said:
Lol, I have no reason to lie...and PES hasn't done me wrong in any way. I have been pleasantly surprised before with PES. The formula, on paper, just looks like a downgrade to me. But like I have said. I've made a career of being wrong í*½í¸‚
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They've done me wrong.
They've delayed the pre again. And kept insiders locked up like prisoners. I DEMAND JUSTICE!
 
I just want to know what will happen to Alphamine. Also when is the Arnold Palmer or Salted Caramel Frappe Alphamine dropping?
 
cubsfan815 said:
I just want to know what will happen to Alphamine. Also when is the Arnold Palmer or Salted Caramel Frappe Alphamine dropping?
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I imagine it is undergoing reformulation to keep in line with the standardization. Speculation though, of course.
 
I have a question for PES. With all things remaining equal is the new formula superior in anyway to the original? If you were to see these two products right next to eachother and you had to recommend one of them to a user that can handle Y and isn't stim sensitive, Which one would you recommend? If the answer isn't the new formula then you guys are moving in a direction many people are not going to follow.
 
Please, for the love of everything that's good and right in this world, leave Alphamine alone.
 
i can confirm that the alphamine formula we know and love has been altered. sad day for all of us here at anabolic minds
 
A big salute to Olympus labs for alpha the yohimbine in Ignite, alphamine without yohimbine shall not be mine..
 
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