3rd week in epistane, low sides but no gains...please help!!

chrys said:
Thanks man, you are a live encyclopedia!!

I tried AlphaMax before my epistane cycle...as part of a natty testo booster try. But as you said, I should skip both AlphaMax and Dermacrine. Reading about the latter one seems to help libido but as you mentioned it is somewhat suppressive!

The reason I went with this dosage was that many pct protocols I read in the forum where suggesting this dosage. I continue the forth week with 20 and then I revise based on the outcome.

One thing that struck me is that the dosage of aromasin was initially designed as 0/0/12.5/12.5/12.5/12.5, meaning that I must continue taking aromasin for two more weeks after nolva is finished. If I have to extend nolva, do I still extend aromasin? The idea of extending aromasin beyond nolva was to assist in preventing any gyno rebound.

I think I will go for the OL test1fy pro. I have already found it in a store that I usually buy from!

I wanted to ask you also what is the reason for stacking nolva with rebirth? I read a bit for that and it seems to be like a natural serm, is not then the same as nolva?
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To be honest stacking BLR Rebirth with Nolva cant hurt, at all. Rebirth has no sides and ive used it about 5 times now. I think rebirth is a phenomenal product, and if it helps get your boys online faster why not? I also find that when ive pct'd with just clomid vs clomid and rebirth, my boys filled faster and libido came faster so its completely anecdotal on my end. Plus an extra $40 to make sure you keep as much gains and recover, why not? Also yes definitely extend aromasin past PCT although i dont think youll need it for two weeks post pct if you do 10/10 the last 2 weeks after your first 4 at 20, the declining dosage will lower rebound chances, its called tapering. Not all SERMs are equal just because theyre classified as the same category of a drug doesnt mean everything about them is the same, a perfect example is the different types of steroids/phs... thats why some people stack Nolv and clomid. Why not stack a natty serm with no sides with a lot of anecdotal evidence proving its ethicacy with a more effective serm so you get double protection while minimizing sides!
 
Great info man!! Thank you very much!!

Rebirth seems to be a good option indeed to use it complementary with nolva. I keep reading about that!

So the PCT should look like given that I am now at week 4:
  • Nolva 20/20/10/20/10/10
  • OL Super PCT 10/10/10/10/10 until finishing the bottle
  • Aromasin 0/0/12.5/12.5/12.5/12.5/12.5/12.5 every other day
  • Rebirth 0/0/0/0/2/2/2/2/1

After finishing 8 weeks PCT then I can add a testo booster like OL Test1fy Pro or should I add it earlier?
 
chrys said:
Great info man!! Thank you very much!!

Rebirth seems to be a good option indeed to use it complementary with nolva. I keep reading about that!

So the PCT should look like given that I am now at week 4:
  • Nolva 20/20/10/20/10/10
  • OL Super PCT 10/10/10/10/10 until finishing the bottle
  • Aromasin 0/0/12.5/12.5/12.5/12.5/12.5/12.5 every other day
  • Rebirth 0/0/0/0/2/2/2/2/1

After finishing 8 weeks PCT then I can add a testo booster like OL Test1fy Pro or should I add it earlier?
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You can add it whenever really I'd add it into my PCT so I could make gains while in PCT but that's just me you could cycle it solo if you wanted!
 
chrys said:
Great info man!! Thank you very much!!

Rebirth seems to be a good option indeed to use it complementary with nolva. I keep reading about that!

So the PCT should look like given that I am now at week 4:
  • Nolva 20/20/10/20/10/10
  • OL Super PCT 10/10/10/10/10 until finishing the bottle
  • Aromasin 0/0/12.5/12.5/12.5/12.5/12.5/12.5 every other day
  • Rebirth 0/0/0/0/2/2/2/2/1

After finishing 8 weeks PCT then I can add a testo booster like OL Test1fy Pro or should I add it earlier?
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I 100% do not agree with this. While I may be somewhat of a noob, I know better than to further skrew with your hormones.

1st: Finish the PCT, if you are severely shut down, it will not come back over night. Do not pile on more drugs yet.
2nd: If after your 4th week you are still not feeling right - go to a doctor.
3rd: By no means take Nolva, Super PCT, and Aromasin for 6 weeks, and rebirth for 5 weeks just because you still "feel" shutdown. Before you put another drug in your body, go to a doctor.
 
Yeah man, regarding nolva I will revisit if I should take it one more week at the end of the fourth week. Then I adjust accordingly aromasin and nolva.
I agree that I should give it some time! Regarding Rebirth it is an OTC product with low sides, so I guess it is quite safe to add it in the cycle.
I think one mistake that I did was that I started with a low nolva dose...maybe something like 40/40/20/20 would have been better.
For super PCT I am not sure though if I should continue it longer than 4 weeks. Any rep from OL could help here??
Do you have any personal experience with PCT?
 
mrgoomba said:
I 100% do not agree with this. While I may be somewhat of a noob, I know better than to further skrew with your hormones.

1st: Finish the PCT, if you are severely shut down, it will not come back over night. Do not pile on more drugs yet.
2nd: If after your 4th week you are still not feeling right - go to a doctor.
3rd: By no means take Nolva, Super PCT, and Aromasin for 6 weeks, and rebirth for 5 weeks just because you still "feel" shutdown. Before you put another drug in your body, go to a doctor.
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Rebirth isnt a drug and neither is Super PCT. Also neither of them affect lipid or liver values and Super PCT will help with that. He's only using 2 actual drugs and his dosing for aromasin is EOD, I see no fault at all. Whats visiting a doctor going to do other than just getting bloods? He needs to go off of how he feels too and extending Nolva wont hurt him at all as long as he has liver support..
 
chrys said:
Yeah man, regarding nolva I will revisit if I should take it one more week at the end of the fourth week. Then I adjust accordingly aromasin and nolva.
I agree that I should give it some time! Regarding Rebirth it is an OTC product with low sides, so I guess it is quite safe to add it in the cycle.
I think one mistake that I did was that I started with a low nolva dose...maybe something like 40/40/20/20 would have been better.
For super PCT I am not sure though if I should continue it longer than 4 weeks. Any rep from OL could help here??
Do you have any personal experience with PCT?
Click to expand...

Your PCT layout is perfectly fine especially for your situation...
 
chrys said:
Yeah man, regarding nolva I will revisit if I should take it one more week at the end of the fourth week. Then I adjust accordingly aromasin and nolva.
I agree that I should give it some time! Regarding Rebirth it is an OTC product with low sides, so I guess it is quite safe to add it in the cycle.
I think one mistake that I did was that I started with a low nolva dose...maybe something like 40/40/20/20 would have been better.
For super PCT I am not sure though if I should continue it longer than 4 weeks. Any rep from OL could help here??
Do you have any personal experience with PCT?
Click to expand...

I think your PCT protocol was fine, maybe for a future cycle swap nolva for clomid. everyone responds differently. Also maybe check your nolva source to make sure it was legit? 20/20/10/10 should have been fine.
 
mrgoomba said:
I think your PCT protocol was fine, maybe for a future cycle swap nolva for clomid. everyone responds differently. Also maybe check your nolva source to make sure it was legit? 20/20/10/10 should have been fine.
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Not everybody will react to PCT chems the same way thats why you need to go off feels and blood work not just most common protocols...
 
OP - this is interesting. So many people claim that epistane is a very mild PH, but your bloodwork shows otherwise! As did my experience with it... I could literally feel the shutdown from it rather quickly and experienced pain/atrophy in the nads, unlike many other PH's.
 
Gutterpump said:
OP - this is interesting. So many people claim that epistane is a very mild PH, but your bloodwork shows otherwise! As did my experience with it... I could literally feel the shutdown from it rather quickly and experienced pain/atrophy in the nads, unlike many other PH's.
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Out of curiosity, what did your cycle look like? Test base? Dosage?
 
Check first message in the thread! For epistane was 30/30/30/45/45/45 i got an extra week due to good response
 
Check out first message in the thread. For epistane it was 30/30/30/45/45/45 i got an extra week due to good response
 
mrgoomba said:
Out of curiosity, what did your cycle look like? Test base? Dosage?
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Oh damn, hmmmm tough to say, I've used epistane in all sorts of ways, and many many times.

I've used it on it's own with DHEA, up to 60-80mg /day. I've used it with test-cyp (this was my favorite), probably up to 50mg/day. It's always shut me down hard, so hard I could feel my nuts atrophying more than anything else besides superdrol. But I still like epi.

I'm about to use it with trestolone ace (IM) in a month. Might log it.
 
To the OP, I would recommend finishing out your planned pct and getting blood work done. As I have stated before you don't want to crush your estro because that will keep your libido down. Epistane has anti estrogenic qualities hence the greater report of rebound from it(even though there is a possibility of rebound from anything suppressive i.e. Hormonal. In my opinion 6 weeks of epi followed up by six weeks of an AI is not a wise decision.
 
Demgainz said:
To the OP, I would recommend finishing out your planned pct and getting blood work done. As I have stated before you don't want to crush your estro because that will keep your libido down. Epistane has anti estrogenic qualities hence the greater report of rebound from it(even though there is a possibility of rebound from anything suppressive i.e. Hormonal. In my opinion 6 weeks of epi followed up by six weeks of an AI is not a wise decision.
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agreed on ai due to lipid values
 
Demgainz said:
To the OP, I would recommend finishing out your planned pct and getting blood work done. As I have stated before you don't want to crush your estro because that will keep your libido down. Epistane has anti estrogenic qualities hence the greater report of rebound from it(even though there is a possibility of rebound from anything suppressive i.e. Hormonal. In my opinion 6 weeks of epi followed up by six weeks of an AI is not a wise decision.
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Thanks! So your main concern is for the nolva? But since I have it at 20 mg. Shouldn't I taper it to 10 mg for at least one week? What do you think of rebirth and testify?

One possibility could be to stop nolva at 4 weeks. Keep aromasin for two weeks extra. And use rebirth and testify as natty solutions immediately after nolva.

Any views on that?
 
I don't have any opinions on testify or rebirth because I have never used them. There are plenty of people on these boards that have and can attest to their worth.

The standard dosing protocol for nolva is generally 20/20/10/10 for a relatively mild cycle. It has worked for countless people in the past. Nolva is my go to for my cycles and it has always worked for me(with bloods to prove). I prefer it over clomid and I also understand that it is the other way around for others. I understand that everyone is different but to lose/or have a loss of your libido during the transition phase from on cycle to pct is common. It does happen. Your hormones are trying to get back to homeostasis. I also understand that by it being your first cycle, you are a little nervous and apprehensive. Hell, you might even have bad or bunk nolva, I don't know.

Just going by morning erections to judge on whether or not you are recovered is asinine. Bloods are the only way to tell for sure. You can wake up with morning wood and simply not have the desire to have sex or a sex drive. It happens.

The ingredient profile in super pct looks great. I plan on using it in the future. My pct layout has always been a serm tapered down, a test booster(s), cort control, and sometimes, not always an AI started the second or third week into pct taken past the serm for approximately two weeks. In fact that is what I am doing now for a six week halo/furuza run and everything is going as planned.

My main concern is not the nolva. Like I said it may be bunk. My main concern is that to keep putting drugs in your system without the knowledge of your hormone levels or the research on your own part in "hopes" of returning to baseline is dumb. Your original plan seems fine but you have to give it time to know for sure. When your pct is over do a blood run up and assess from there.
 
I see your point and thanks for your input! Given the post cycle blood work values I wrote in a previous message, do you think that the cycle can be considered as mild? I am asking that cause I don't know how much suppressive is a mild cycle. Maybe the fact that extended epistane one more week had a big impact on the testo levels and libido.
 
The reason I say relatively "mild" is because when you compare the compounds such as furuza/stano/halo/epi to compounds such as superdrol/msten/m1t/ect. the relation of sides to gains is mild. These compounds are pretty dam good for their intended purposes. I actually was in a dispute with the admin here regarding that particular topic and it was in fact epistane that we were discussing. Admin did not feel as strongly as I did about the said compounds.

Shutdown is shutdown. I know you have probably heard that old "song and dance" before but it is true. If your natural test is being shut down you are going to ultimately be suppressed. I don't see how only one week extra is going to make that much of a significant difference.

If it was me I would not have done six weeks of epistane as my first cycle. My first cycle was halo 50/50/50/50 and I thought it was a great run. If anything it should have been shorter even if it "kicks in" after two to three weeks. I am also a firm believer in "less is more". No reason to put more in your body than needed for the desired results. There is no sense in crying over spilled milk.

Like I have stated in previous posts: take it as a learning experience and give it some time.

Also don't blindly follow advice being spouted on message boards without doing your own due diligence and research, especially when it comes to your health. You see it time and time again: "the whites of my eyes are yellow", "my stool has blood in it", ect. At one point I wanted to grab people through the computer screen if it was at all possible and say "go to the ****ing doctor!". Now, I just shake my head.
 
chrys said:
I see your point and thanks for your input! Given the post cycle blood work values I wrote in a previous message, do you think that the cycle can be considered as mild? I am asking that cause I don't know how much suppressive is a mild cycle. Maybe the fact that extended epistane one more week had a big impact on the testo levels and libido.
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Google around everyone whos had PCT problems ends up extending PCT or switching SERMs and being perfectly fine, also things wont be instant. Things take time especially hormonally, i say continue PCT to 5 weeks keep AI past for 2 weeks the first week same dosage then last week halve the dosage!
 
Demgainz said:
To the OP, I would recommend finishing out your planned pct and getting blood work done. As I have stated before you don't want to crush your estro because that will keep your libido down. Epistane has anti estrogenic qualities hence the greater report of rebound from it(even though there is a possibility of rebound from anything suppressive i.e. Hormonal. In my opinion 6 weeks of epi followed up by six weeks of an AI is not a wise decision.
Click to expand...

Perhaps a suicidal AI used at a low dose during PCT would be ok though, to prevent rebound. Aromasin comes to mind, it is very lipid friendly, and even a small dose has been shown to boost test levels. Great stuff
 
Hello guys!!

I have a very naive question. When we say high estrogen levels is it in absolute values or relative to testo levels?

For example, in my middle-PCT blood test the value of E2 was 22 pg/ml which is within the normal range (17-46) BUT the testo level is now too low making the ratio of E2 to testo very high!
 
Guys any input on the question above? I am searching in the net but not so easy to find information on the above. Everyone talks about high estrogens after the end of cycle. But do they mean high in absolute or relative to testo values?? Can someone clarify that? thanks!!
 
chrys said:
Guys any input on the question above? I am searching in the net but not so easy to find information on the above. Everyone talks about high estrogens after the end of cycle. But do they mean high in absolute or relative to testo values?? Can someone clarify that? thanks!!
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I think it generally relates to estrogen being above normal baseline levels. Many compounds aromatise (convert from test to estrogen) when hormone levels rise. This is your body's way of trying to keep the 2 hormones in balance. So when you stop using the gear, your test drops off as you are suppressed and there is no exogenous supply, but the estrogen levels remain high for some time. So then we need to suppress estrogen in order to trigger the production of test to balance the equation again. That's as simple as I can put it.
 
Thanks! I am asking that cause my E2 levels are within the normal range. But still higher than the test levels. Should that mean that 1) the risk of gyno is low 2) I can start reducing aromasin and nolvadex that relate mainly to estrogens (ok they help also in testo production) 3) add a natty testo booster
 
Estrogen don't go always excess during the cycles since it depends whether you get a dry compound such as epistane or not
 
chrys said:
Thanks! I am asking that cause my E2 levels are within the normal range. But still higher than the test levels. Should that mean that 1) the risk of gyno is low 2) I can start reducing aromasin and nolvadex that relate mainly to estrogens (ok they help also in testo production) 3) add a natty testo booster
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Risk of Gyno should be relatively low however i recommend an OTC suicide AI after PCT aromasin is too strong you dont wanna crush e after post cycle therapy becaus eyoure trying to balance hormones. DHAA, or Forma Stanzol V3 are my recommendations using them both low dosed right now during pct just so that the test clomid is ramping up in me doesnt get aromatized but im going to bump doses post pct to prevent rebound. Yes add a natty t booster they definitely help with a serm everyone recommends it for optimal recovery and to try to keep some libido during PCT
 
Thanks! Test booster must for sure be added during or finished with nolva. But I have a question on your argument above. If estrogen is normal then why getting a suicide AI and reduce E2 even more? Will not that crush the estrogens? Even more why will you get rebound if estrogen is normal and testo is still relatively low? I guess no much aromatization will take place since e2 is within normal levels. This is my understanding so far but I might be wrong as well!
 
chrys said:
Thanks! Test booster must for sure be added during or finished with nolva. But I have a question on your argument above. If estrogen is normal then why getting a suicide AI and reduce E2 even more? Will not that crush the estrogens? Even more why will you get rebound if estrogen is normal and testo is still relatively low? I guess no much aromatization will take place since e2 is within normal levels. This is my understanding so far but I might be wrong as well!
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Okay, with a SERM, your test is going to rise and using a low dose or not overly effective suicidal AI reduces chances of rebound after stopping SERM and increases test even more due to not aromatizing. What you're not getting is that the Nolva is taking up most of the estrogen receptors as that's it's job... so as soon as you stop nolva and the receptors are free'd of the SERM the circulating estrogen binds and can cause gyno, it's nothing to do with your current E2 numbers... because youre on nolva right now.. some people even use nolva on cycle for estrogen control.. Also a suicide AI over one that occupies and detcaches is because it lowers chance of rebound.. Your worry isnt so much crushing estrogen in PCT as a SERM is a synthetic oestrogen the acts on receptors in both the HPTA and breast tissue. Have i cleared it up? It's not about your actual E2 during PCT its important after PCT as you want to normalize levels. Almost everyone you ask will recommend using a weak suicidal AI AFTER PCT after is the important part, in order to prevent gyno, but some people are starting to advocate exemstane during pct instead of after as it's very strong and will help increase T levels faster. Just dont over do it 12.5 EOD or E3D is the way to go. Did i clear it up for you?
 
I have been looking for this compound to run myself but can't seem to find. Is OL still making Ep1stane?
 
YoungBodyBuil said:
Okay, with a SERM, your test is going to rise and using a low dose or not overly effective suicidal AI reduces chances of rebound after stopping SERM and increases test even more due to not aromatizing. What you're not getting is that the Nolva is taking up most of the estrogen receptors as that's it's job... so as soon as you stop nolva and the receptors are free'd of the SERM the circulating estrogen binds and can cause gyno, it's nothing to do with your current E2 numbers... because youre on nolva right now.. some people even use nolva on cycle for estrogen control.. Also a suicide AI over one that occupies and detcaches is because it lowers chance of rebound.. Your worry isnt so much crushing estrogen in PCT as a SERM is a synthetic oestrogen the acts on receptors in both the HPTA and breast tissue. Have i cleared it up? It's not about your actual E2 during PCT its important after PCT as you want to normalize levels. Almost everyone you ask will recommend using a weak suicidal AI AFTER PCT after is the important part, in order to prevent gyno, but some people are starting to advocate exemstane during pct instead of after as it's very strong and will help increase T levels faster. Just dont over do it 12.5 EOD or E3D is the way to go. Did i clear it up for you?
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Thanks for the input man! When you say it has nothing to do with the current E2 levels, what exactly do you mean? Do you expect that E2 will rise after stopping the SERM? I am not worry of crushing estrogens due to SERM, but if I am using an AI while being low or within the normal range of E2, then will not estrogens be further reduced?

It is also interesting what you stated that nolva can be used for estrogen control. I thought that it just blocks the receptors but not reducing estrogen!

I just finished the four weeks of PCT with nolva at 20/20/10/20, OL Super PCT 10/10/10/10 and aromasin 0/0/12.5/12.5. Mood has improved compared to the first two weeks and boys down there have started to work again. So now I am thinking to taper down nolva to 10 for one more week and continue with aromasin for two more weeks. I have also bought OL Testify as a testo booster but it has some AI inside so I am a bit sceptical if and how I should use it. I am also thinking to redo a blood work at the beginning of next week and see testo and E2 levels.

Thanks again!!
 
chrys said:
Thanks for the input man! When you say it has nothing to do with the current E2 levels, what exactly do you mean? Do you expect that E2 will rise after stopping the SERM? I am not worry of crushing estrogens due to SERM, but if I am using an AI while being low or within the normal range of E2, then will not estrogens be further reduced?

It is also interesting what you stated that nolva can be used for estrogen control. I thought that it just blocks the receptors but not reducing estrogen!

I just finished the four weeks of PCT with nolva at 20/20/10/20, OL Super PCT 10/10/10/10 and aromasin 0/0/12.5/12.5. Mood has improved compared to the first two weeks and boys down there have started to work again. So now I am thinking to taper down nolva to 10 for one more week and continue with aromasin for two more weeks. I have also bought OL Testify as a testo booster but it has some AI inside so I am a bit sceptical if and how I should use it. I am also thinking to redo a blood work at the beginning of next week and see testo and E2 levels.

Thanks again!!
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No... Nolvadex does not reduce estrogen. As i said in the previous post IT ACTS ON ESTROGEN RECEPTORS! So it makes any estrogen in your body have no purpose as it cant bind to anything, and the reason you use an AI after cycle is so that when the receptors are freed up all of your estrogen doesnt start binding to your receptors all at once and cause high estro symptoms.. by using an AI you reduce circulating estrogen therefore reducing estrogen sides.. People use it on cycle as estrogen control for gyno symptoms but it doesnt actually get rid of the estrogen just keeps the estrogen from exerting its effects on the receptors... Use the AI 2 for 2 weeks post cycle just use a weak OTC suicidal inhibitor if not roll the dice with rebound.
 
chrys said:
Thanks for the input man! When you say it has nothing to do with the current E2 levels, what exactly do you mean? Do you expect that E2 will rise after stopping the SERM? I am not worry of crushing estrogens due to SERM, but if I am using an AI while being low or within the normal range of E2, then will not estrogens be further reduced?

It is also interesting what you stated that nolva can be used for estrogen control. I thought that it just blocks the receptors but not reducing estrogen!

I just finished the four weeks of PCT with nolva at 20/20/10/20, OL Super PCT 10/10/10/10 and aromasin 0/0/12.5/12.5. Mood has improved compared to the first two weeks and boys down there have started to work again. So now I am thinking to taper down nolva to 10 for one more week and continue with aromasin for two more weeks. I have also bought OL Testify as a testo booster but it has some AI inside so I am a bit sceptical if and how I should use it. I am also thinking to redo a blood work at the beginning of next week and see testo and E2 levels.

Thanks again!!
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It's just like total t vs free t... If the hormones cant bind to impose there effects on your body then its not doing anything, so your estrogen numbers while using nolva hardly matter as they cant bind to the receptors and therefore they cant exert their effects......... common sense, but after PCT and nolva is stopped estrogen can exert its effects and thats why you use an AI in case just to mitigate any chances of rebound.
 
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