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Donald Trump running for president

Dma378 said:
Going to have to disagree. Believe me I'm not like super grateful that my money is taken either. It is what it is. And maybe it's not fair, but I think you're over assuming people's generosity.

So on a volunteer basis, we would still have to send or give our money to some organization or service, where it is run both those crappy corrupt humans. Well it surely isn't going to be as much as it is now, leaving even less to use for its purpose. We would go from bad to worse faster than you could even imagine.
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Yes, we would but a middle man(government)isn't needed. I'm not saying everyone is all friendly and willing to help each other out but it definitely isn't a minority. I've read how individuals do horrible thing and I've read how government has/does done horrible things. Yet I've read how non government organizations help tons of people and how individuals within the government help other individuals out.

Let's pretent there the minority of people are actually good and the rest are just selfish. I would still prefer a society based on volutaryism. Individuals have no power over other individuals unless they work for the government. Government does nothing to protect us, one can argue they protect us from other governments but I dislike government generally so there is no real argument there.
 
ax1 said:
SS is going bankrupt, my own statement says so on the front page that Im only getting 75% of what the statement says Im supposed to get in 2035.

You would phase it out, give people that bought into it refunds or something and get out before its too late.

If you care about the future you would want a sustainable economic model, not one of forces taxation and large expensive out of control bureaucracies.
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I do care. Just like you do. Just different visions. I hate some of the unfortunate truths, but they're truths.
 
Dma378 said:
I do care. Just like you do. Just different visions. I hate some of the unfortunate truths, but they're truths.
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I know you do, thats why I respect you.

This is the big question in life that will never end in debate, the big question that has led to many wars of the years.

How is best to lead a system of life?

Personally, Im big on states and the sovereignty of them. Mans best friend is choice.
 
Dma378 said:
Unfortunately, yes it is. It is the government's job to look out for all the people. Whether it does or not is a different story. But as far as being the government's business...that's pretty much the definition of its business.
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I've heard the whole "its the governments job to protect us" thing but who is going to fire them for not doing their job? Also I never hired them for the job so why do I have to obey any rules implemented by the government? Then I heard "well thats the way it is, move to Somalia". Well then I say that not an agreement, just a statement based on ignorance.

People want individual freedom yet try so hard to do it under government rule which never ever ever ever EVER worked. Statism is a collective ideology.

Also voluntary statism doesn't exist unless there is a option to opt out which doesn't exist.
 
Dma378 said:
End corruption. That's how to make taxes work fairly for the people.
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This for certain we are on the same page.

First thing is first, and most in congress wont touch this. Run a full audit on the private Federal Reserve banking system.

Are you aware the Federal Reserve in private, that we dont know who owns it, that there is hardly any transparency and that the government currently has no power to audit them?

This is the system that is collecting our taxes, an un-auditable private bank installed by via coup in 1913. This is when the income tax amendment was put forth, before that it was 0 percent (note America has some of the most modern innovated and best infrastructure and tech being built without income taxes in human history.)

If you want to talk about real corruption, look into the Federal Reserve. After a fierce fight led by Ron Paul, a small partial audit of the Federal Reserve revealed 16 trillion dollars in secret transactions and bailouts to overseas institutions and banks. We dont know who got what and will never know.

Then we have the inflationary policies which is a tax to the mega elite that effect all of us but thats a different story.

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ax1 said:
This for certain we are on the same page.

First thing is first, and most in congress wont touch this. Run a full audit on the privateFederal Reserve banking system.

Are you aware the Federal Reserve in private, we dont know who owns it, there is hardly any transparency and the government currently has no power to audit them?

This is the system that is collecting our taxes, an uninhabitable private bank installed by via coup in 1913. This is when the income tax amendment was put forth, before that it was 0 percent (note America has some of the most modern innovated and best infrastructure and tech being built without income taxes in human history.)

If you want to talk about real corruption, look into the Federal Reserve. After a fierce fight led by Ron Paul, a small partial audit of the Federal Reserve revealed 16 trilliondollars in secret transactions and bailouts to overseas institutions and banks. We dont know who got what and will never know.

Then we have the inflationary policies which is a tax to the mega elite that effect all of us but thats a different story.

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I like Ron Paul , and you might be surprised that Rand Paul is probably my favorite candidate. Too bad he's too logical to win. Anyways, for some stupid reason videos on my phone don't play the audio. I'll try and watch this at home from my computer.

But I've watched zeitgeist, I know the federal reserve scam LOL
 
Dma378 said:
Has the voluntaryanist model ever existed, or mostly a theoretical system?
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Its more of a philosophy and way of life, the system would be true free market capitalism which hasn't existed. The closes would be the "wild" west which wasnt wild at all, it was actually more better off then the government ran east.
 
Dma378 said:
It's got to exist somewhere successfully first to ever try it on a population of 350,000,000.
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Well generally anarchism saw capitalism and the state as the enemy. Capitalism and anarchism or voluntaryism is a fairly new concpet to the world but isn't seen as legitimate since most see capitalism as a system for the upper class to take control of the people.

Also the idea of self ownership isn't widely accepted or known nor is the non aggression principle with just points people in the right direction when learning about anarcho capitalism or voluntaryism.
 
Dma378 said:
I like Ron Paul , and you might be surprised that Rand Paul is probably my favorite candidate. Too bad he's too logical to win. Anyways, for some stupid reason videos on my phone don't play the audio. I'll try and watch this at home from my computer.

But I've watched zeitgeist, I know the federal reserve scam LOL
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Wow....we both have the same top candidate. Well, my list is called the least shyttiest to most shytties, lol

Outside of skipping the presidential vote again, or supporting a significant 3rd party/independent run by someone Rand Paul is the only Candidate out of the bunch where I need to consider if I want to vote for the lesser of evils or not.
 
I am sorry to say this, but I have come to the conclusion that people [with few exceptions] are by nature corrupt....even if the most ideological solution you could imagine were put into place, eventually people would find ways to corrupt it.
 
thebigt said:
I am sorry to say this, but I have come to the conclusion that people [with few exceptions] are by nature corrupt....even if the most ideological solution you could imagine were put into place, eventually people would find ways to corrupt it.
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Thats the nature of government, and why some people prefer to keep it at minimal with their primary role on overseeing these issues of corruption. Once government is at role of planned management of society, that role is lost.
 
thebigt said:
I am sorry to say this, but I have come to the conclusion that people [with few exceptions] are by nature corrupt....even if the most ideological solution you could imagine were put into place, eventually people would find ways to corrupt it.
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How have you concluded this? Look at children, if all children were born corrupt then with their small minds would just attack each other and kill each other(with a corrupt mindset at that age). They would have no reason not to kill each other. Children are good, they play, laugh, forgive, they don't judge, or do anything adults usually do. The only thing that corrupts them are their parents and society. Human corruption isn't genetic(excluding sociopaths and others falling near that category), humans are corrupted by life and "bad" parenting.
 
CJNator said:
How have you concluded this? Look at children, if all children were born corrupt then with their small minds would just attack each other and kill each other(with a corrupt mindset at that age). They would have no reason not to kill each other. Children are good, they play, laugh, forgive, they don't judge, or do anything adults usually do. The only thing that corrupts them are their parents and society. Human corruption isn't genetic(excluding sociopaths and others falling near that category), humans are corrupted by life and "bad" parenting.
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I can see love and compassion as being genetic, there is alot of voluntary charity and helping hands Ive seen in my life around me, society and globe in times of need. I can see the bottleneck's government causes to severely limit this though.
 
ax1 said:
I can see love and compassion as being genetic, there is alot of voluntary charity and helping hands Ive seen in my life around me, society and globe in times of need. I can see the bottleneck's government causes to severely limit this though.
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Same here, good is all around if you look for it. I believe a ton of statists are probably good people but the school system indoctrinated them is so many ways possible to make them the "perfect citizen" even though many have broken those shackles of thinking.

Misfit28 said:
Focus on materialism and money leads to corruption, IMO.
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Yea I agree, parents focus on giving kids material items instead of their owe time then that just leads to a boat load of problems(I'm just speaking generally of course).
 
CJNator said:
How have you concluded this? Look at children, if all children were born corrupt then with their small minds would just attack each other and kill each other(with a corrupt mindset at that age). They would have no reason not to kill each other. Children are good, they play, laugh, forgive, they don't judge, or do anything adults usually do. The only thing that corrupts them are their parents and society. Human corruption isn't genetic(excluding sociopaths and others falling near that category), humans are corrupted by life and "bad" parenting.
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children don't run governments!!!

have you ever heard the expression...'everyone has a price'.
 
thebigt said:
children don't run governments!!!

have you ever heard the expression...'everyone has a price'.
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Well you said by nature and naturally we were are all babies once. That's were it all starts, from birth. We need to teach children ethics, morality, and mostly how to think.

Also yea I've heard that, but the right person would have a price.
 
CJNator said:
Well you said by nature and naturally we were are all babies once. That's were it all starts, from birth. We need to teach children ethics, morality, and mostly how to think.

Also yea I've heard that, but the right person would have a price.
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parents use bribery all the time to get children to behave.......'you can't have any pudding if you don't eat your meat'
 
thebigt said:
parents use bribery all the time to get children to behave.......'you can't have any pudding if you don't eat your meat'
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Thats true, I assume the statement was towards sellouts. You can bribe kids with a rock if you tell them its magic lol. A children's mentality and adults mentality should not be the same.
 
Misfit28 said:
Interesting article, need to find the journal articles cited:
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Its a good article.

Im actually fairly optimistic about people in general. One example is how when there is a crisis somewhere around the world, people are willing to contribute to the cause such as the Haiti earthquake.

When it comes to rich people Im also optimistic. I see many athletes and actors having charitable organizations and foundations to their communities and countries. These positive contributions would have never existed if the Athlete/Actor was unable to make that type of living. Help with poverty, disease, education, research....all amazing things.
 
ax1 said:
Its a good article.

Im actually fairly optimistic about people in general. One example is how when there is a crisis somewhere around the world, people are willing to contribute to the cause such as the Haiti earthquake.

When it comes to rich people Im also optimistic. I see many athletes and actors having charitable organizations and foundations to their communities and countries. These positive contributions would have never existed if the Athlete/Actor was unable to make that type of living. Help with poverty, disease, education, research....all amazing things.
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I'm a bit more jaded than that lol. I see that stuff and assume they are doing it for tax writeoffs and publicity ;)

If we had a flat tax or no income tax at all, I think charitable donations from the rich would decline significantly.
 
Misfit28 said:
I'm a bit more jaded than that lol. I see that stuff and assume they are doing it for tax writeoffs and publicity ;)

If we had a flat tax or no income tax at all, I think charitable donations from the rich would decline significantly.
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Well yeah those things can be a factor. You a right. I'll say if big ego motivated altruism so be it....if big ego motivates altruism to set up and manipulate for more greed and power grabs then yikes, that's evil.

There are various types of ego...one is bad ego another is healthy. I prefer no ego but healthy much better than bad.

Now tax write off, I'm sure you can assume my defense and position on that so I'll hold back lol!
 
Misfit28 said:
I'm a bit more jaded than that lol. I see that stuff and assume they are doing it for tax writeoffs and publicity ;)

If we had a flat tax or no income tax at all, I think charitable donations from the rich would decline significantly.
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I think that wealthy people would more readily do dispicable acts to keep wealth or obtain more than a poor person would do to get money....I really feel that to be wealthy you had to kneel at the altar of money and would commit any act for it!!!

the LOVE of money is the root of all evil....and you know what the bible says about a rich man entering the kingdom of heaven-even if you are not a believer you can get the jist!!!
 
thebigt said:
I think that wealthy people would more readily do dispicable acts to keep wealth or obtain more than a poor person would do to get money....I really feel that to be wealthy you had to kneel at the altar of money and would commit any act for it!!!

the LOVE of money is the root of all evil....and you know what the bible says about a rich man entering the kingdom of heaven-even if you are not a believer you can get the jist!!!
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Psychological attachment combined with aversion to physical goods, money, power, status and things that create the negativity, not necessarily "money." People are the root of their own inherit evilness. Varies from individual to individual depending on their own individual motivations.
 
ax1 said:
Psychological attachment combined with aversion to physical goods, money, power, status and things that create the negativity, not necessarily "money." People are the root of their own inherit evilness. Varies from individual to individual depending on their own individual motivations.
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wealth...I am not talking about living comfortably!!! I am talking about rockefeller money-to obtain this kind of wealth you are willing to do anything for it-even put an entire nation into depression!!!
 
Misfit28 said:
The fair tax is far more advantageous to rich people, people that already have expensive things.

See, since they already have all of this money that hasn't been taxed due to loopholes for earned interest and capital gains, they get to keep even more of it. If they already have a mansion, a boat, cars, etc. they don't need to buy one, therefore they don't pay taxes. They'll easily be able to pay taxes on whatever they need.

However, poor people will be forced to pay taxes on everything they need, even though they make far less.

Flat tax sounds good on paper, but it would be a nightmare for people who aren't already rich. In fact, I think it would prevent anyone else from becoming rich.
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You obviously haven't actually read what the fair tax proposal is and how it deals with low income people, so your opinion is pointless.
 
Dma378 said:
Hell you would even have people fuking themselves out of their own social security. It's the "it doesn't effect me now so fuk it" world we live in. Hell a great part of the population in this country thinks the rapture is coming soon so fuk the future anyways.
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The government already screwed people out of SS when they started using the SS "lock box funds" to pay for **** that wasn't SS benefits.
 
youngandfree said:
You obviously haven't actually read what the fair tax proposal is and how it deals with low income people, so your opinion is pointless.
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Tell me, oh wise one, how it would help lower income people?

My opinion is worth as much as yours, for what that's worth.
 
Misfit28 said:
I'm a bit more jaded than that lol. I see that stuff and assume they are doing it for tax writeoffs and publicity ;)

If we had a flat tax or no income tax at all, I think charitable donations from the rich would decline significantly.
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Think about this though....any politician you may choose to vote for is on the same boat...they want extra benefits not given to average citizens (such as exempting yourself from Obamacare), publicity to boost ego, power....except their form of altruism is social engineering and stealing from others peoples pockets with a militia at gunpoint instead of pulling out of your own pocket. Then, you have to pay them to steal from other people with with your own tax dollars.
 
But they would effectively pay more of their income as a percentage than the rich. It's simply not as fair as a progressive tax system.
 
youngandfree said:
You obviously haven't actually read what the fair tax proposal is and how it deals with low income people, so your opinion is pointless.
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This coming from the person destroyed by JudoJosh for not understanding the links you post. Can't stop hypocrisy. It just keeps coming at ya like a tsunami.
 
thebigt said:
wealth...I am not talking about living comfortably!!! I am talking about rockefeller money-to obtain this kind of wealth you are willing to do anything for it-even put an entire nation into depression!!!
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That can also be a great thing....money brings the best out of people, Rockefeller (and I am by no means a personal fan) bought us oil, Carnegie bought us steel....people innovate when there is an incentive there. Our sciences, medicine, tech....we may not be talking right now if there was no incentive to go after the money and punish productive behavior of we dont leave people alone to create their own unlimited market/reward out of it. Take out the incentive many people will become deadbeats. Also, they may go someplace else and our home will lose the economical benefits. America is still alright in those regards, thats why China is trying to change their policies to reduce bureaucracy and punishing productive behavior because they are losing most of their best people to us!

You just have to let people do what they want to do on their own and not punish productive behavior and simply enforce the Constitution and Bill of Rights protections for everybody and things will be alright and better off in the future.
 
Misfit28 said:
But they would effectively pay more of their income as a percentage than the rich. It's simply not as fair as a progressive tax system.
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So the more you engage and reward yourself with your own productive behavior the more you get punished for it? How is that fair?
 
Misfit28 said:
So because someone makes more money than someone else, they are more "productive"?
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Yes, if money is earned legitimately then absolutely. Making money is productive behavior as long as you dont infringe on the lives of other people (such as stealing.)
 
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