bighulksmash
Legend
That's why you hear bodybuilding pros and aspiring pros talk about how they work harder in the off season. Going off steroids when your big as ****** is not going to work. Those guys deflate like a stabbed ballon. Took name out
Superdrol the best ?
- Thread starter JS424
- Start date
That's why you hear bodybuilding pros and aspiring pros talk about how they work harder in the off season. Going off steroids when your big as ****** is not going to work. Those guys deflate like a stabbed ballon. Took name out
dredmentia
Member
This stuff is sitting in the other room its kinda haunting me I want to get right into it but this is my second cycle I'm trying to learn from some of the mistakes I learned the first time . still working out like a mad man , 4 days on 1 day off. And I just started Osta last week but in all honesty I feel like absolute **** on this stuff. I def don't feel "on" like I did on these . I'm gonna give it another week or two to see if I'm getting any results and then might just go 100% Natural for a few weeks to lose some more fat before diving into this
Attachments
dredmentia
Member
Or Arnold...
dredmentia
Member
Those guys though went to such extremes way beyond what the body is naturally capable of producing so it makes sense they could not hold onto that muscle. Holding onto 10+ pounds or so of extra muscle is s diff story although I still over a period of time you would lose most of it if if you were not cycling or on trt
bighulksmash
Legend
Rons trying to come back. Search youtube
BamBam0319
Well-known member
Lol who?!
dave39
Active member
Clen is a good way to fuk yourself up and ruin your sleep. Be careful with that one.
The epi would probably make a great second cycle and you could add it to your osta run right now.
Osta didn't do anything for me but everyone is different. yates84 is probably one of the resident experts on your stash and is very helpful through PMs as well.
bighulksmash
Legend
Last time i posted his name i got an infraction. B L initials . Im gonna watch the hockey game. Catch yall old boys later .
BamBam0319
Well-known member
Naw this guy's initials are LD. He coaches several local guys including one of my bosses and two of my close friends. IFBB pro
T-Bone
Banned
TRT isn't going to help you hold on to supra-physiological amounts of muscle.
bananagains
Banned
you could keep quite a bit especially if you have that one guys doc that prescribes him 500mg test cyp a week 4 on one off.
dave39
Active member
I call bs on anyone who says they get 500mg per week from a doc. I can't remember the name of that association but I'm 99% sure there's a max of 200 or 250
T-Bone
Banned
LMAO!. Ok....You're bananas!
bighulksmash
Legend
400 is the max and its very rare u need to have osteoporosis and hypergonadism
I was at an appointment today instead of trt i decided , got clomid for 3 months.
bighulksmash
Legend
100 mgs a,week is standard dose
dave39
Active member
Thanks for the education hulk!
What's your clomid dose gonna be? 25mgs? I hope it works for you man
bananagains
Banned
Good luck with the Clomid man. I've searched all over the internet for hard evidence on serms restarting hpta without continued dosing but haven't came across anything other than temporary restoration. Not saying it doesn't work but I hope it works for you man.
bighulksmash
Legend
50 mgs 90 days straight. Then ill flood my system with herbs and nettle root .maybe even some ultimate T if it ever gets to me mail box lol
bighulksmash
Legend
We have been using it for a long time . I'd rather use clomid than hcg or nolva . Thats just me tho. Clomid makes everything nice and easy. Nolva makes me mad as f idky.
LiftWithDonuts
Well-known member
...
Last edited:
BamBam0319
Well-known member
I'm getting really impatient waiting for dat chit.
bighulksmash
Legend
Morse code!
bighulksmash
Legend
bighulksmash
Legend
Not to hijack this thread but anyone else use an AI while on clomid im hoping exemestane low dose will fool my body into making massive amounts of test. By blocking estrogen.
BamBam0319
Well-known member
I have to or I get gyno
bighulksmash
Legend
Awesome so it does work in the sense of suppressing estrogen. But does it effect clomids efficiency?
BamBam0319
Well-known member
Not sure to be honest. Good question. I should probably look into that. Using low dose of adex with clomid right now because I ran out of exemestane
bobi593
Active member
32.03859875789 yrs old. Y[/QUOTE]
In 32 possible TRT that's sucks but if you have to go for TRT do not delay just do it 90% cyclists from this forum will end up on trt anyway
bighulksmash
Legend
In 32 possible TRT that's sucks but if you have to go for TRT do not delay just do it 90% cyclists from this forum will end up on trt anyway[/QUOTE]
Im trying the clomid restart first . Im the nut who cycles 8 months out of a year.
bighulksmash
Legend
Adex probably a better choice .25?
dredmentia
Member
Why would you recommend running the epi separate. I thought epi was a very mild combo in itself
bighulksmash
Legend
Epi andro or epistane?
BamBam0319
Well-known member
.5mg eod, idk if it's a better choice though because it's not a suicidal inhibitor. There's a chance of rebound when you stop taking it. It's just all I have right now and my nips start getting puffy within 2 days if I stop taking an AI.
dredmentia
Member
Epistane. Was planning on 40mg epistane 120mg Tren 20mg Msten and 330mg 4 andro for 8 weeks. Got Exemestane and cycle support and inhibit p for supports but was also thinking of additional liver support with TUDCA. also to the poster that !mentioned the Clen which they saw there I was actually not planning on using that DURING the ph/DS cycle, just to cut down the last 5 or pounds when I'm still using the osta.
Right now I weigh between 230 and 232 depending on the time of the day I check. I promised !myself I would not start this stuff until I, at the VERY LEAST saw myself hit 220 on the scale . I ran my first cycle very over weight and, while I did have some pretty incredible muscle and stength gain the subsequent result of being left with all this new muscle but still under an bunch of fat was very annoying and I don't wanna deal with that again .
So I'm taking Osta 25mg and ephedra 25mg 2x right now I really hope in 3 more weeks or so I can shed the 10 pounds I'm trying to lose so I can get info the real **** right here because the combo of osta and ephedra has got me feeling like total **** right now. We just had various holiday parties and then all the leftovers here at work so it set me back but I actually did not gain any weight just stopped losing. So I hope to get back on the right track starting tommorow
Right now I weigh between 230 and 232 depending on the time of the day I check. I promised !myself I would not start this stuff until I, at the VERY LEAST saw myself hit 220 on the scale . I ran my first cycle very over weight and, while I did have some pretty incredible muscle and stength gain the subsequent result of being left with all this new muscle but still under an bunch of fat was very annoying and I don't wanna deal with that again .
So I'm taking Osta 25mg and ephedra 25mg 2x right now I really hope in 3 more weeks or so I can shed the 10 pounds I'm trying to lose so I can get info the real **** right here because the combo of osta and ephedra has got me feeling like total **** right now. We just had various holiday parties and then all the leftovers here at work so it set me back but I actually did not gain any weight just stopped losing. So I hope to get back on the right track starting tommorow
bighulksmash
Legend
That's why I chose exemestane for me it just seems to work better than adex ever did . But now that I'm on the clomid and in PCT .
JS424
Member
It seems like everyone always points to the fact that the liver is regenerative. But then always is scared of the hepatoxic factor. So my question is. Is the hepatoxicity only a factor for people who continually cycle and don't take off multiple months in between cycles. Or is the regenerative thing just a way for people to justify doing AAS?
dave39
Active member
False justification.
criticalbench
Legend
Your liver can take quite a beating.. yes it can regenerate from certain complications, but not all. Steroids don't really directly effect the liver per say, rather the Bile ducts.. that is why AST/ALT elevates are far less significant when talking about AAS toxicity. You should be monitoring your Alk Phos, and GGT which are much more sensitive to steroidal induced damage.
You should be monitoring those values closely.
B5150
Legend
Hepatoxicty: Fact or Fiction
by Roy Harper
We all know that the alpha alkylated steroids are hepatotoxic, right….. But, is there actually any truth to this? We’ve been told for years that if you take 17 alpha-alkylated steroids, you will eventually run into liver problems. Never combine 17 aa’s, never go beyond 50mg day, never go longer than 4 weeks, etc. All of this is crap! As I we walk you through some studies, today, you’ll see 17 alpha-alkylated steroids can be hepatotoxic but not to the degree you would think.
To make a steroid hepatotoxic, you need only a small change to a steroid molecule; A strong bond that cannot readily be down broken by enzymes in the liver. This may be a bond at the 17th position, or even at the 1st position (as in methenolone or proviron ). Because the liver cannot easily break the steroid down before it is released in to the blood stream, this also results in the steroid to becoming more orally bio-available.
We can see that the liver has to work harder to break down these steroids. Enzymes in the blood and tissue easily metabolize other steroids such as Testosterone . Commonly, this increase in liver activity has been viewed as a harmful process, but as you will see, this increase is, in and of itself, irrelevant. The liver is THE filter of the human body -- it can figure out what to do with just about anything. The only real problem comes in when one keeps their liver at full blast for long periods of time.
Let’s look at some studies showing the hepatotoxicity of steroids. Here's one of my favorites, a study published in 1979[1]. Essentially, researches did a study of deaths caused by hepatic angiosarcoma (a malignant tumor of vascular tissue in the liver) between 1964 and 1974. Researchers found 131 reported cases of death from hepatic angiosarcoma. Out of the 131 cases, 3.1% (4 cases) were reported to be at all related to the use of androgenic -anabolic steroids. Keep in mind that these 4 people could have liver complications before any steroids were used, aka a genetic disposition. In fact there is no proof, in this study at least, that the anabolic-androgenic steroids even caused the hepatic angiosarcoma.
This is the classic case of associating a cause with an effect, without any evidence, aside from both existing. Furthermore, based on the above numbers, there are only 0.4 cases of hepatic angiosarcoma reported each year, by those using AAS. Now consider the number of people on steroids at this time. Now factor in all the people that don’t know their ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to using AAS, properly. Clearly, this is very week evidence. Lastly there has not been a real increase in hepatic angiosarcoma since the early seventies. Meanwhile, there has been a huge, almost exponential, increase in steroid use during this period.
Another study, that somewhat supports the previous hepatotoxicity case, showed the possibilities of hepatic adenomas(cysts in the liver) caused by androgenic-anabolic steroids [2]. In this study, a Japanese girl was found to have multiple liver lesions after the use of the drug oxymetholone (aka Anadrol ). Most everyone “knows” that Anadrol is linked with liver problems, but a closer inspection into this study shows more.
Apparently, this girl, starting at the age of 14, was diagnosed with aplastic anemia. She was prescribed oxymetholone at 30mg per day. This continued for 6 years until the lesions first appeared. Assuming that the girl was most likely around 100 lbs., this was a pretty heavy dosage. If you extrapolated this data out to a 200 - 250lbs. male, that would be taking approximately 60 - 90mg of anadrol per day for 6 years. Ouch!
The researchers also stated that there were only 17 other cases of hepatic adenomas, found in English literature between 1975 and 1998. They failed to mention the causes of these 17 cases, but there is no reason to believe they were all using 17-AA androgens and 17 is certainly miniscule compared to the number of people who have used them. The authors’ finish off the study by saying the following: "This report may be helpful in identifying the population who is at risk of developing hepatic sex hormone-related tumors." So remember, if you're a small 14-year-old girl taking 30mg of Anadrol per day for 6 years, you may be at risk!
Let's move on to some more useful studies. Take for example a 1995 study that showed the toxic effects of anabolic-androgenic steroids in primary rat hepatic cell cultures[3]. In this study the researchers used the following drugs and dosages:
Steroid
*1x10^-8M
**1x10^-6M
***1x10^-4M
19-nortestosterone
0.002744mg*
0.2744mg**
27.44mg***
Fluoxymesterone
0.003365mg*
0.3365mg**
33.65mg***
Testosterone cypionate
0.004126mg*
0.4126mg**
41.26mg***
Stanozolol
0.003285mg*
0.3285mg**
32.85mg***
Danazol
N/A
N/A
N/A
Oxymetholone
0.003325mg*
0.3325mg**
33.25mg***
Testosterone
0.002884mg*
0.2884mg**
28.84mg***
Estradiol
0.0027424mg*
0.2724mg**
27.24mg***
Methyltestosterone
0.003024mg*
0.3024mg**
30.24mg***
As proof of the hepatoxicity they used Lactate dehydrogenase release, neutral red retention, and glutathione depletion to determine plasma membrane damage, cell viability, and possible oxidative injury, respectively.
What they showed was that the 17 alpha-alkylated steroids, methyltestosterone, stanozolol and oxymetholone, significantly increased Lactate dehydrogenase release and decreased neutral red retention at the 1x10^-4M dosage for 24h. Both methyltestosterone and oxymetholone also showed depleted glutathione at the 1x10^-4M dosage after 2h, 6h and 8h treatments. In other words they increased liver activity. You may also note that the other, non-alkylated steroids showed no significant difference in any levels. All in all this not only shows that 17 alpha-alkylated steroids are directly “hepatotoxic”, but also non-alkylated steroids are note hepatotoxic at all. But is this a real measure of hepatotoxicity? There is yet to be any correlation between the increase of the above-mentioned measurement and “hepatotoxicity”. Obviously, high dosages of the 17 alpha-alkylated steroids are potentially dangerous, but upon closer inspection, the study reveals more.
Take a look, the researchers took cell cultures from the liversse of 60-day-old Sprague-Dawley rats. Not only are rat livers much smaller than human livers, but these were merely cultures. Furthermore, it was the 1x10^-4M concentrations that caused the most changes, but these are approximately 1 to a 1/3 of a full, daily human dosage -- at least for the 17 alpha-alkylated steroids. Even at the 1x10^-6M concentration, there were no significant changes observed. It's apparent that the levels of 17 alpha-alkylated steroids used were potentially toxic, but for a human to take the same amount would be insane. I'm guessing this could translate to maybe 4 grams every 24 hours or 28 grams a week if not more.
What is common so far is we can only prove that any steroid, that is believed to be hepatotoxic, only increases liver activity. I’ll say it again, where is the correlation to hepatotoxicity? We know that if the liver is running at 100% for long periods this may cause complications, but this is akin to any other chemical, which is metabolized by the liver. Ever noticed that liver cancer due to alcoholism takes decades of constant alcohol abuse? It’s apparent that the possibility for hepatotoxicity is there, but for the smart steroid user this is nearly an impossible task.
Another study done in 1999, attempted to show the acute and chronic effects of stanozolol on the liver[4]. In acute treatments of stanozolol, dosages not mentioned, both cytochrome P456 and b5 (microsomal enzymes) levels dropped after 48 hours, and then at 72 hours, levels significant increased. On the other hand, with chronic treatments, time or dosage not mentioned, these microsomal enzymes showed a decrease in levels. Researchers showed that both acute and chronic treatments resulted in "slight to moderate inflammatory or degenerative lesions in centrilobular hepatocytes", but the authors did not note true hepatotoxicity.
How about we look at the other side of the story, the good studies. For instance, in a 1999 study, which looked at the effects of an 8-week cycle of 17 alpha-alkylated steroids[5]. The researchers used fluoxymesterone, methylandrostanolone, or stanozolol on rats at 2mg/kg-body weight, five times a week for 8 weeks. That's 182mg per dosage, for a 200lb man, or 910mg per week. Half of the rats were sedentary and the other were trained on a treadmill.
Levels of NADH-cytochrome c reductase, succinate cytochrome c reductase, and cytochrome oxidase (showing liver activity), increased in the steroid-administered rats, while citrate synthase showed no change. Comparatively, in vitro, the "cytochrome oxidase and citrate synthase activities were insensitive to the AAS, whereas NADH-cytochrome c reductase and succinate cytochrome c reductase activities were partly inhibited."
Furthermore, in vivo, each rat had liver enzyme levels that were within normal range. From this, the researchers determined that the steroid-administered rats, trained or sedentary, did not show "...classical serum indicators of hepatic function". Extrapolating this, 910mg a week for 8 weeks could potentially have little to no effect on the liver in humans.
As for human studies, in 1999 researchers tried to prove that the hepatotoxicity of steroids is overstated[6]. In this study, 15 of the participants were bodybuilders using self-administered steroid dosages and 10 were non-steroid bodybuilders. Serum data was compared to 49 patients with viral hepatitis, and 592 exercising and non-exercising medical students. [
All of the bodybuilders showed increases in aspartate aminotransferase (AST), alanine aminotransferase (ALT) and creatine kinase (CK) while gamma-glutamyltranspeptidase (GGT) levels were in the normal range. In comparison, hepatitis patients showed increased ALT, AST, and GGT levels while the control exercising medical students showed increased CK levels. From this, the researchers suggested that it is the correlation between AST, ALT and GGT that shows true liver dysfunction. Keep in mind, we can only guess that the 15 steroid users were using 17 alpha-alkylated steroids, and we do not know what the dosages that were used., but common sense tells us the results are likely relevant.
Last but not least, a simple study done in 1996, showed the long term benefits after taking a 3 month break from steroids[7]. 16 bodybuilders using steroids were compared to 12 bodybuilders that were not. After a three-month drug withdrawal, the researchers showed that levels of liver enzymes, types not mentioned, returned to the same as the non users. Again the dosages are left to the reader’s imagination and we can only guess that the 16 steroid users were using 17 alpha-alkylated steroids.
So what can we conclude from all of this? First off, 17 alpha-alkylated steroids are hepatotoxic in high dosages taken for a long time. On the other hand, short cycles and small dosages appear to be perfectly safe. I suggest that maximum dosages should be 500mg to 900mg per day. They should be cycled for perhaps 8 weeks at a time, and if needed a 3-month break from them should be used. Using the above-mentioned techniques, your liver can be healthy for a long time. Simply put, the hysteria surrounding “hepatoxic” steroids, is based mainly on folk lore.
References:
[1] Lancet 1979 Nov 24;2(8152):1120-3, Hepatic angiosarcoma associated with androgenic-anabolic steroids. Falk H, Thomas LB, Popper H, Ishak KG.
[2] J Gastroenterol 2000;35(7):557-62, Multiple hepatic adenomas caused by long-term administration of androgenic steroids for aplastic anemia in association with familial adenomatous polyposis. Nakao A, Sakagami K, Nakata Y, Komazawa K, Amimoto T, Nakashima K, Isozaki H, Takakura N, Tanaka N.
[3] J Pharmacol Toxicol Methods 1995 Aug;33(4):187-95, Toxic effects of anabolic-androgenic steroids in primary rat hepatic cell cultures. Welder AA, Robertson JW, Melchert RB.
[4] Arch Toxicol 1999 Nov;73(8-9):465-72, Evaluation of acute and chronic hepatotoxic effects exerted by anabolic-androgenic steroid stanozolol in adult male rats. Boada LD, Zumbado M, Torres S, Lopez A, Diaz-Chico BN, Cabrera JJ, Luzardo OP.
[5] Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1999 Feb;31(2):243-50, Rat liver lysosomal and mitochondrial activities are modified by anabolic-androgenic steroids. Molano F, Saborido A, Delgado J, Moran M, Megias A.
[6] Clin J Sport Med 1999 Jan;9(1):34-9, Anabolic steroid-induced hepatotoxicity: is it overstated? Dickerman RD, Pertusi RM, Zachariah NY, Dufour DR, McConathy WJ.
[7] Int J Sports Med 1996 Aug;17(6):429-33, Body composition, cardiovascular risk factors and liver function in long-term androgenic-anabolic steroids using bodybuilders three months after drug withdrawal. Hartgens F, Kuipers H, Wijnen JA, Keizer HA.
by Roy Harper
We all know that the alpha alkylated steroids are hepatotoxic, right….. But, is there actually any truth to this? We’ve been told for years that if you take 17 alpha-alkylated steroids, you will eventually run into liver problems. Never combine 17 aa’s, never go beyond 50mg day, never go longer than 4 weeks, etc. All of this is crap! As I we walk you through some studies, today, you’ll see 17 alpha-alkylated steroids can be hepatotoxic but not to the degree you would think.
To make a steroid hepatotoxic, you need only a small change to a steroid molecule; A strong bond that cannot readily be down broken by enzymes in the liver. This may be a bond at the 17th position, or even at the 1st position (as in methenolone or proviron ). Because the liver cannot easily break the steroid down before it is released in to the blood stream, this also results in the steroid to becoming more orally bio-available.
We can see that the liver has to work harder to break down these steroids. Enzymes in the blood and tissue easily metabolize other steroids such as Testosterone . Commonly, this increase in liver activity has been viewed as a harmful process, but as you will see, this increase is, in and of itself, irrelevant. The liver is THE filter of the human body -- it can figure out what to do with just about anything. The only real problem comes in when one keeps their liver at full blast for long periods of time.
Let’s look at some studies showing the hepatotoxicity of steroids. Here's one of my favorites, a study published in 1979[1]. Essentially, researches did a study of deaths caused by hepatic angiosarcoma (a malignant tumor of vascular tissue in the liver) between 1964 and 1974. Researchers found 131 reported cases of death from hepatic angiosarcoma. Out of the 131 cases, 3.1% (4 cases) were reported to be at all related to the use of androgenic -anabolic steroids. Keep in mind that these 4 people could have liver complications before any steroids were used, aka a genetic disposition. In fact there is no proof, in this study at least, that the anabolic-androgenic steroids even caused the hepatic angiosarcoma.
This is the classic case of associating a cause with an effect, without any evidence, aside from both existing. Furthermore, based on the above numbers, there are only 0.4 cases of hepatic angiosarcoma reported each year, by those using AAS. Now consider the number of people on steroids at this time. Now factor in all the people that don’t know their ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to using AAS, properly. Clearly, this is very week evidence. Lastly there has not been a real increase in hepatic angiosarcoma since the early seventies. Meanwhile, there has been a huge, almost exponential, increase in steroid use during this period.
Another study, that somewhat supports the previous hepatotoxicity case, showed the possibilities of hepatic adenomas(cysts in the liver) caused by androgenic-anabolic steroids [2]. In this study, a Japanese girl was found to have multiple liver lesions after the use of the drug oxymetholone (aka Anadrol ). Most everyone “knows” that Anadrol is linked with liver problems, but a closer inspection into this study shows more.
Apparently, this girl, starting at the age of 14, was diagnosed with aplastic anemia. She was prescribed oxymetholone at 30mg per day. This continued for 6 years until the lesions first appeared. Assuming that the girl was most likely around 100 lbs., this was a pretty heavy dosage. If you extrapolated this data out to a 200 - 250lbs. male, that would be taking approximately 60 - 90mg of anadrol per day for 6 years. Ouch!
The researchers also stated that there were only 17 other cases of hepatic adenomas, found in English literature between 1975 and 1998. They failed to mention the causes of these 17 cases, but there is no reason to believe they were all using 17-AA androgens and 17 is certainly miniscule compared to the number of people who have used them. The authors’ finish off the study by saying the following: "This report may be helpful in identifying the population who is at risk of developing hepatic sex hormone-related tumors." So remember, if you're a small 14-year-old girl taking 30mg of Anadrol per day for 6 years, you may be at risk!
Let's move on to some more useful studies. Take for example a 1995 study that showed the toxic effects of anabolic-androgenic steroids in primary rat hepatic cell cultures[3]. In this study the researchers used the following drugs and dosages:
Steroid
*1x10^-8M
**1x10^-6M
***1x10^-4M
19-nortestosterone
0.002744mg*
0.2744mg**
27.44mg***
Fluoxymesterone
0.003365mg*
0.3365mg**
33.65mg***
Testosterone cypionate
0.004126mg*
0.4126mg**
41.26mg***
Stanozolol
0.003285mg*
0.3285mg**
32.85mg***
Danazol
N/A
N/A
N/A
Oxymetholone
0.003325mg*
0.3325mg**
33.25mg***
Testosterone
0.002884mg*
0.2884mg**
28.84mg***
Estradiol
0.0027424mg*
0.2724mg**
27.24mg***
Methyltestosterone
0.003024mg*
0.3024mg**
30.24mg***
As proof of the hepatoxicity they used Lactate dehydrogenase release, neutral red retention, and glutathione depletion to determine plasma membrane damage, cell viability, and possible oxidative injury, respectively.
What they showed was that the 17 alpha-alkylated steroids, methyltestosterone, stanozolol and oxymetholone, significantly increased Lactate dehydrogenase release and decreased neutral red retention at the 1x10^-4M dosage for 24h. Both methyltestosterone and oxymetholone also showed depleted glutathione at the 1x10^-4M dosage after 2h, 6h and 8h treatments. In other words they increased liver activity. You may also note that the other, non-alkylated steroids showed no significant difference in any levels. All in all this not only shows that 17 alpha-alkylated steroids are directly “hepatotoxic”, but also non-alkylated steroids are note hepatotoxic at all. But is this a real measure of hepatotoxicity? There is yet to be any correlation between the increase of the above-mentioned measurement and “hepatotoxicity”. Obviously, high dosages of the 17 alpha-alkylated steroids are potentially dangerous, but upon closer inspection, the study reveals more.
Take a look, the researchers took cell cultures from the liversse of 60-day-old Sprague-Dawley rats. Not only are rat livers much smaller than human livers, but these were merely cultures. Furthermore, it was the 1x10^-4M concentrations that caused the most changes, but these are approximately 1 to a 1/3 of a full, daily human dosage -- at least for the 17 alpha-alkylated steroids. Even at the 1x10^-6M concentration, there were no significant changes observed. It's apparent that the levels of 17 alpha-alkylated steroids used were potentially toxic, but for a human to take the same amount would be insane. I'm guessing this could translate to maybe 4 grams every 24 hours or 28 grams a week if not more.
What is common so far is we can only prove that any steroid, that is believed to be hepatotoxic, only increases liver activity. I’ll say it again, where is the correlation to hepatotoxicity? We know that if the liver is running at 100% for long periods this may cause complications, but this is akin to any other chemical, which is metabolized by the liver. Ever noticed that liver cancer due to alcoholism takes decades of constant alcohol abuse? It’s apparent that the possibility for hepatotoxicity is there, but for the smart steroid user this is nearly an impossible task.
Another study done in 1999, attempted to show the acute and chronic effects of stanozolol on the liver[4]. In acute treatments of stanozolol, dosages not mentioned, both cytochrome P456 and b5 (microsomal enzymes) levels dropped after 48 hours, and then at 72 hours, levels significant increased. On the other hand, with chronic treatments, time or dosage not mentioned, these microsomal enzymes showed a decrease in levels. Researchers showed that both acute and chronic treatments resulted in "slight to moderate inflammatory or degenerative lesions in centrilobular hepatocytes", but the authors did not note true hepatotoxicity.
How about we look at the other side of the story, the good studies. For instance, in a 1999 study, which looked at the effects of an 8-week cycle of 17 alpha-alkylated steroids[5]. The researchers used fluoxymesterone, methylandrostanolone, or stanozolol on rats at 2mg/kg-body weight, five times a week for 8 weeks. That's 182mg per dosage, for a 200lb man, or 910mg per week. Half of the rats were sedentary and the other were trained on a treadmill.
Levels of NADH-cytochrome c reductase, succinate cytochrome c reductase, and cytochrome oxidase (showing liver activity), increased in the steroid-administered rats, while citrate synthase showed no change. Comparatively, in vitro, the "cytochrome oxidase and citrate synthase activities were insensitive to the AAS, whereas NADH-cytochrome c reductase and succinate cytochrome c reductase activities were partly inhibited."
Furthermore, in vivo, each rat had liver enzyme levels that were within normal range. From this, the researchers determined that the steroid-administered rats, trained or sedentary, did not show "...classical serum indicators of hepatic function". Extrapolating this, 910mg a week for 8 weeks could potentially have little to no effect on the liver in humans.
As for human studies, in 1999 researchers tried to prove that the hepatotoxicity of steroids is overstated[6]. In this study, 15 of the participants were bodybuilders using self-administered steroid dosages and 10 were non-steroid bodybuilders. Serum data was compared to 49 patients with viral hepatitis, and 592 exercising and non-exercising medical students. [
All of the bodybuilders showed increases in aspartate aminotransferase (AST), alanine aminotransferase (ALT) and creatine kinase (CK) while gamma-glutamyltranspeptidase (GGT) levels were in the normal range. In comparison, hepatitis patients showed increased ALT, AST, and GGT levels while the control exercising medical students showed increased CK levels. From this, the researchers suggested that it is the correlation between AST, ALT and GGT that shows true liver dysfunction. Keep in mind, we can only guess that the 15 steroid users were using 17 alpha-alkylated steroids, and we do not know what the dosages that were used., but common sense tells us the results are likely relevant.
Last but not least, a simple study done in 1996, showed the long term benefits after taking a 3 month break from steroids[7]. 16 bodybuilders using steroids were compared to 12 bodybuilders that were not. After a three-month drug withdrawal, the researchers showed that levels of liver enzymes, types not mentioned, returned to the same as the non users. Again the dosages are left to the reader’s imagination and we can only guess that the 16 steroid users were using 17 alpha-alkylated steroids.
So what can we conclude from all of this? First off, 17 alpha-alkylated steroids are hepatotoxic in high dosages taken for a long time. On the other hand, short cycles and small dosages appear to be perfectly safe. I suggest that maximum dosages should be 500mg to 900mg per day. They should be cycled for perhaps 8 weeks at a time, and if needed a 3-month break from them should be used. Using the above-mentioned techniques, your liver can be healthy for a long time. Simply put, the hysteria surrounding “hepatoxic” steroids, is based mainly on folk lore.
References:
[1] Lancet 1979 Nov 24;2(8152):1120-3, Hepatic angiosarcoma associated with androgenic-anabolic steroids. Falk H, Thomas LB, Popper H, Ishak KG.
[2] J Gastroenterol 2000;35(7):557-62, Multiple hepatic adenomas caused by long-term administration of androgenic steroids for aplastic anemia in association with familial adenomatous polyposis. Nakao A, Sakagami K, Nakata Y, Komazawa K, Amimoto T, Nakashima K, Isozaki H, Takakura N, Tanaka N.
[3] J Pharmacol Toxicol Methods 1995 Aug;33(4):187-95, Toxic effects of anabolic-androgenic steroids in primary rat hepatic cell cultures. Welder AA, Robertson JW, Melchert RB.
[4] Arch Toxicol 1999 Nov;73(8-9):465-72, Evaluation of acute and chronic hepatotoxic effects exerted by anabolic-androgenic steroid stanozolol in adult male rats. Boada LD, Zumbado M, Torres S, Lopez A, Diaz-Chico BN, Cabrera JJ, Luzardo OP.
[5] Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1999 Feb;31(2):243-50, Rat liver lysosomal and mitochondrial activities are modified by anabolic-androgenic steroids. Molano F, Saborido A, Delgado J, Moran M, Megias A.
[6] Clin J Sport Med 1999 Jan;9(1):34-9, Anabolic steroid-induced hepatotoxicity: is it overstated? Dickerman RD, Pertusi RM, Zachariah NY, Dufour DR, McConathy WJ.
[7] Int J Sports Med 1996 Aug;17(6):429-33, Body composition, cardiovascular risk factors and liver function in long-term androgenic-anabolic steroids using bodybuilders three months after drug withdrawal. Hartgens F, Kuipers H, Wijnen JA, Keizer HA.
bighulksmash
Legend
Totally agree with you here. I used for 8 months at ridiculous dosages and had almost no sides with proper support , diet and training. 2 yrs back i did use sdrol at 20 , 40 , and 60mgs . The very first day at 60mgs i had intense pain and severe abdominal swelling and discomfort. A few days after stopping and heavy doses of tudca , nac , and milk thistle all pain subsided. Liver values were only slightly elevated. Doctor prescribed a strong heartburn medication which i never took . Thee end .
dredmentia
Member
Well regardless if these talks of liver toxicity are exaggerated or not I don't think anyone in their right mind would run orals for 9 months man thats just asking for trouble
T-Bone
Banned
All the grammatical errors and the fact that the author is unknown is enough to make me completely discount what he has to say. It's almost as if he "wrote" this article like it was a joke. Either that or he has some serious mental disability.
B5150
Legend
He was an article author at Mind and Muscle years ago. I believe his (this) article was in the M&M magazine issue #8. It does have credible references.
I could not find it at the source so I copy and pasted it. I'll look a bit more.