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Arecoline Hydrobromide?

The_Old_Guy said:
They epitomize the term 'Supplement Hucksters'.
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Because they don't give a ****. They'll sell a bunch of bottles, and even if the FDA goes after blackstone/dynamik/REL, MassiveJoes is an Australian company. They have literally no personal risk whatsoever and no reason to give one single **** what's in products they sell or what potential or realized risks those products have.

They have exactly one goal, sell as many bottles of as many products as possible for as much profit as possible.

And if you happen to be opposed to the echo chamber of shilling that is the supplement industry, then you're just a supplement basher and the enemy.

Welcome to the world.
 
NoAddedHmones said:
Their answer back to my question, do you have anything showing its safe for humans at the dosage in these products? Was, do you have anything to show its not?

Lol come on now...
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OMG While I find that reply to be ridiculous, I guess I'm not really surprised knowing who's behind the company.
 
Don't bother commenting - they control that particular battlefield 100% - nothing factual will see the light of day - DELETE BUTTON.
 
Using this in a Supp and the idiots that won't do the research to check the ingredients, are exactly why the Government keeps sticking their dick fingers in all the good Supps. We get screwed because some jackasses are going to use this and end up being a cancer cluster... then the FDA will hop in and say that it was the Caffeine and try to ban that Instead of getting the already known bad actor off the shelves (Arecoline Hydrobromide). They will again attack the industry and we get screwed. The FDA doesn't give two craps about the safety of anything, they just want something to blame, just like Ephedra; when some retards use 40 ephedra pills and then tried to accomplish a forty mile heavy pack run.
Damn... I am sick and tired of this bullsh1t. This company needs to be closed before people get hurt and we get screwed.
 
halljo said:
Using this in a Supp and the idiots that won't do the research to check the ingredients, are exactly why the Government keeps sticking their dick fingers in all the good Supps. We get screwed because some jackasses are going to use this and end up being a cancer cluster... then the FDA will hop in and say that it was the Caffeine and try to ban that Instead of getting the already known bad actor off the shelves (Arecoline Hydrobromide). They will again attack the industry and we get screwed. The FDA doesn't give two craps about the safety of anything, they just want something to blame, just like Ephedra; when some retards use 40 ephedra pills and then tried to accomplish a forty mile heavy pack run.
Damn... I am sick and tired of this bullsh1t. This company needs to be closed before people get hurt and we get screwed.
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They wont go after caffeine; believe me, the FDA isnt naive. You sell something that isnt compliant, is potentially dangerous, spiked or that has so safety/ toxicity data, then expect to get targeted.

People ingest these products - the regulations are there to ensure safety. Even if it is hit or miss :)
 
For all people complain about the FDA, can anybody name a single instance of the FDA taking action on an entirely unwarranted ingredient or issue?

In every instance I can recall, the industry brings it on itself by releasing ingredients or products that are generating adverse event reports.
 
De__eB said:
For all people complain about the FDA, can anybody name a single instance of the FDA taking action on an entirely unwarranted ingredient or issue?

In every instance I can recall, the industry brings it on itself by releasing ingredients or products that are generating adverse event reports.
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Ephedra! Because people decided to use it excessively (20-40 pills at a pop). Instead of the FDA using common sense and saying these events were caused by idiots doing retarded quantities of the Supp, they banned Ephedra.
 
halljo said:
Ephedra! Because people decided to use it excessively (20-40 pills at a pop). Instead of the FDA using common sense and saying these events were caused by idiots doing retarded quantities of the Supp, they banned Ephedra.
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Common sense would ban the supplement or highly increase regulation.

You can't just leave a product on the market that is known for killing people, even if the consumers ingested too much and OD'd.

And I'll save you the argument, ephedra is different from Tylenol or Aspirin. People are less likely to take 40 Tylenol to get rid of a headache vs 40 ephedra to drop 30 pounds.
 
halljo said:
Ephedra! Because people decided to use it excessively (20-40 pills at a pop). Instead of the FDA using common sense and saying these events were caused by idiots doing retarded quantities of the Supp, they banned Ephedra.
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You do realize that there were thousands of adverse events reports made over ephedra supplements that were taken at their recommended dose right?

This wasn't just people using 20-40 pills at a time although there was in fact some cases of that.

This was the industry gradually increasing doses to the point where in the very same unhealthy people trying to lose weight that they were marketing their products to, the dose was adequate to cause side effects.

This was the industry having poor quality control and a significant majority of supplements (70%+) having their ephedra content inaccurately labeled.

This was the industry combining increasing doses of ephedra with other stimulants.

--

Hmm, where have I seen that happen since.

Oh right. DMAA.

Oh right. DMBA.

Oh right. NMBPEA.

Wanna bet what's going to happen with "2-aminoisoheptane"?

Wanna bet what's going to happen with "Eria Janensis Extract?"

--

Don't get me wrong, I'm pro supplement industry, but if we want to functionally exist then people need to get their **** together.
 
De__eB said:
You do realize that there were thousands of adverse events reports made over ephedra supplements that were taken at their recommended dose right?

This wasn't just people using 20-40 pills at a time although there was in fact some cases of that.

This was the industry gradually increasing doses to the point where in the very same unhealthy people trying to lose weight that they were marketing their products to, the dose was adequate to cause side effects.

This was the industry having poor quality control and a significant majority of supplements (70%+) having their ephedra content inaccurately labeled.

This was the industry combining increasing doses of ephedra with other stimulants.

--

Hmm, where have I seen that happen since.

Oh right. DMAA.

Oh right. DMBA.

Oh right. NMBPEA.

Wanna bet what's going to happen with "2-aminoisoheptane"?

Wanna bet what's going to happen with "Eria Janensis Extract?"

--

Don't get me wrong, I'm pro supplement industry, but if we want to functionally exist then people need to get their **** together.
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LOL remember way back when 200mg+ was considered a high dose of caffeine? Now we are seeing 600mg + in some sh*tty formulated pres.
 
De__eB said:
You do realize that there were thousands of adverse events reports made over ephedra supplements that were taken at their recommended dose right?

This wasn't just people using 20-40 pills at a time although there was in fact some cases of that.

This was the industry gradually increasing doses to the point where in the very same unhealthy people trying to lose weight that they were marketing their products to, the dose was adequate to cause side effects.

This was the industry having poor quality control and a significant majority of supplements (70%+) having their ephedra content inaccurately labeled.

This was the industry combining increasing doses of ephedra with other stimulants.

--

Hmm, where have I seen that happen since.

Oh right. DMAA.

Oh right. DMBA.

Oh right. NMBPEA.

Wanna bet what's going to happen with "2-aminoisoheptane"?

Wanna bet what's going to happen with "Eria Janensis Extract?"

--

Don't get me wrong, I'm pro supplement industry, but if we want to functionally exist then people need to get their **** together.
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I really need to give up DMBA lol i have been through 2, 100g bags now
 
NoAddedHmones said:
LOL remember way back when 200mg+ was considered a high dose of caffeine? Now we are seeing 600mg + in some sh*tty formulated pres.
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And here's the thing, there's nothing inherently wrong with taking 600mg of caffeine.

In fact there's numerous studies showing significant benefits with doses up to 800mg-1000mg of caffeine.

I've taken 1000mg of caffeine a number of times with no ill effects.

You simply cannot sell that to millions of overweight and obese people who make up the majority of people trying to lose weight and expect no repercussions.

The industry has a disconnect between improving performance in athletes, and the reality that the overwhelming majority of their audience is made up of unhealthy people.
 
Lol using the conversion equation at Invalid Link Removed 1mg 5 days a week administered to mice is equivalent to 6.5mg 5 days a week administered to mice... 4000mg? I think not
 
De__eB said:
You do realize that there were thousands of adverse events reports made over ephedra supplements that were taken at their recommended dose right?

This wasn't just people using 20-40 pills at a time although there was in fact some cases of that.

This was the industry gradually increasing doses to the point where in the very same unhealthy people trying to lose weight that they were marketing their products to, the dose was adequate to cause side effects.

This was the industry having poor quality control and a significant majority of supplements (70%+) having their ephedra content inaccurately labeled.

This was the industry combining increasing doses of ephedra with other stimulants.

--

Hmm, where have I seen that happen since.

Oh right. DMAA.

Oh right. DMBA.

Oh right. NMBPEA.

Wanna bet what's going to happen with "2-aminoisoheptane"?

Wanna bet what's going to happen with "Eria Janensis Extract?"

--

Don't get me wrong, I'm pro supplement industry, but if we want to functionally exist then people need to get their **** together.
Click to expand...

Just as many adverse effects to tylenol, aspirin and moltrin. But those are still available. I never had an issue with ephedra, nor had anyone I knew who had used it. I understand that some people had issues with it... but most of those who had issues were using too much at one time, too much over a short period of time, already had heart/other issues. Now, I personally believe that most of the issues were due to high volume usage by inexperienced unfit people, I also accept that some of the businesses at the time, were making caps/pills of this with ridiculous amounts of ephedra in them and also some companies pill contents would be extreme from pill to pill (15mg in one pill, same bottle next pill... 80mg). Look all I'm saying is Ephedra wasn't an issue with the FDA until a bunch of high school kids started dropping dead on football fields and a few military guys died during ruck runs... anytime those that use and abuse something that works, they bring the FDAs light on it and the Governmental requests to ban/limit these items. Most times it's more about the ill perceived view of the item (based on biased media reports and letters/requests from grieving family members).
The main part is if companies keep doing shady sh1t, the entire industry will suffer and that means we lose.
 
Woody said:
Common sense would ban the supplement or highly increase regulation.

You can't just leave a product on the market that is known for killing people, even if the consumers ingested too much and OD'd.

And I'll save you the argument, ephedra is different from Tylenol or Aspirin. People are less likely to take 40 Tylenol to get rid of a headache vs 40 ephedra to drop 30 pounds.
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Maybe not to lose weight... but they have no problem taking that much to commit suicide. So, by what you stated, since people are dying/OD'ing, aspirin/Tylenol/moltrin should be removed from sales.
 
halljo said:
Just as many adverse effects to tylenol, aspirin and moltrin. But those are still available.
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With warning labels.

That acknowledge the side effects.

How many supplement companies did/do the same with their high stim products?

Oh right, no supplement manufacturer wants to accept the liability and customer scaring involved with putting "This product may cause heart attack, stroke, or death" on their label.

I never had an issue with ephedra, nor had anyone I knew who had used it. I understand that some people had issues with it... but most of those who had issues were using too much at one time, too much over a short period of time, already had heart/other issues.
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This is observably false, the majority of adverse events reported for ephedra were a result of product use within manufacturers recommendations.

Now, I personally believe that most of the issues were due to high volume usage by inexperienced unfit people, I also accept that some of the businesses at the time, were making caps/pills of this with ridiculous amounts of ephedra in them and also some companies pill contents would be extreme from pill to pill (15mg in one pill, same bottle next pill... 80mg). Look all I'm saying is Ephedra wasn't an issue with the FDA until a bunch of high school kids started dropping dead on football fields and a few military guys died during ruck runs...
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The FDA wanted to restrict ephedrine doses in supplements and require safety labels in 1997, 7 years before the 2004 ban.

How did the industry respond? By assembling a PR group, refusing to restrict doses, refusing to include safety warnings, and trying to sue researchers who wanted to publish findings indicating that the majority of ephedrine products had quantities of ephedrine in them that differed from label claims.

anytime those that use and abuse something that works, they bring the FDAs light on it and the Governmental requests to ban/limit these items. Most times it's more about the ill perceived view of the item (based on biased media reports and letters/requests from grieving family members).
The main part is if companies keep doing shady sh1t, the entire industry will suffer and that means we lose.
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This right here is the only group of people you should have any disdain for whatsoever.

The Ephedrine ban was 99% the industry's own fault.

Same applies to almost every other FDA action on the industry.
 
De__eB said:
How did the industry respond? By assembling a PR group, refusing to restrict doses, refusing to include safety warnings, and trying to sue researchers who wanted to publish findings indicating that the majority of ephedrine products had quantities of ephedrine in them that differed from label claims.
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The most ridiculous about that entire thing is if they did a little research on marketing, they would realize that the warning labels would probably sell 100x more of their product.
 
Admin said:
The most ridiculous about that entire thing is if they did a little research on marketing, they would realize that the warning labels would probably sell 100x more of their product.
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"This may blow up your heart"

Sells out day one.
 
Driven2lift said:
"This may blow up your heart"

Sells out day one.
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PMRC and Congress required record companies to put explicit lyric stickers on albums in which it applied. The result was albums selling out at a record pace. No pun intended.

People want the things the FDA bans. Putting stickers on them would identify those supplements that worked better. Why would you not want that if you were selling them?
 
Driven2lift said:
"This may blow up your heart"

Sells out day one.
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"WARNING EXCEEDING 1 SCOOP MAY CAUSE CANCER"

"bro check this out stuffs super strong lol. lets double scoop it for lulz"

"Alison young reporting after 2 teenage boys died after taking mr kai greenes's new betel nut blast pre workout"
 
Yeah, nobody every smokes more than one cigarette.
 
Auslifter said:
"WARNING EXCEEDING 1 SCOOP MAY CAUSE CANCER"

"bro check this out stuffs super strong lol. lets double scoop it for lulz"

"Alison young reporting after 2 teenage boys died after taking mr kai greenes's new betel nut blast pre workout"
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Lolz.
 
On another forum Aaron Singerman stated toxicology reports are being completed by the "big leagues" on this ingredient. Seems odd given the previously completed research that De__eB posted showing it to be toxic.
 
Admin said:
The most ridiculous about that entire thing is if they did a little research on marketing, they would realize that the warning labels would probably sell 100x more of their product.
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I like it when products have fake warnings on them.

CAUTION: PRODUCT IS EXTREMELY POTENT AND MAY CAUSE THE BEST WORKOUTS OF YOUR LIFE.
 
bdcc said:
I like it when products have fake warnings on them.

CAUTION: PRODUCT IS EXTREMELY POTENT AND MAY CAUSE THE BEST WORKOUTS OF YOUR LIFE.
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Lol I saw that on gnc shelves a few times
 
Jack3d w/1,3 had the black box warning on the front of the label, I knew I had stumbled on to something wonderful those years ago at VS...
 
FireRescue said:
On another forum Aaron Singerman stated toxicology reports are being completed by the "big leagues" on this ingredient. Seems odd given the previously completed research that De__eB posted showing it to be toxic.
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Let me guess... he sells a product with it in it?
 
So an instagram user(guerillachemist) is stating that arecoline is safe to ingest because it is the chewing aspect of betel nuts that causes the toxicity. And now marc lobliner wants to make some informational videos with them to "educate" the public.
 
Lobliner is a shill (and uneducated it seems - thinks COP is a new Creatine). Besides, were the mice chewing Betal Nuts?
 
daxiang said:
So an instagram user(guerillachemist) is stating that arecoline is safe to ingest because it is the chewing aspect of betel nuts that causes the toxicity. And now marc lobliner wants to make some informational videos with them to "educate" the public.
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i saw this. lobliner would be rubbing his hands at all the sales he could drive by using this guy.
 
Found something interesting on Arecoline

Effects of arecoline on testosterone release in rats.

Invalid Link Removed
 
Full text here: h t t p : / / ajpendo.physiology.org/content/295/2/E497.long

I'd love to see the huckster marketing machine spin that one - that was the most removed procedure I've ever read, from "eat this much and this happens". Lots of cancer talk too. Then we're back to the "It raises testosterone a little...so?" argument :) "Honey, I'd be so horny if it wasn't for my chemotherapy" LOL
 
daxiang said:
So an instagram user(guerillachemist) is stating that arecoline is safe to ingest because it is the chewing aspect of betel nuts that causes the toxicity. And now marc lobliner wants to make some informational videos with them to "educate" the public.
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In any field that is sufficiently complex, a debate will allow opposing sides to present "experts" backing their position. To the general public - even to those who have tried to learn what is possible on their own - these views will then seem to be on "equal ground", and this of course will be a mistaken belief.

You will often find that there is a consensus within the field in support of one of the sides and that insiders can easily spot a quack. Those with a media platform can then choose to spread misinformation or help others learn that there really is no debate to be had. It is clear to me which side Lobliner has chosen.
 
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