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Arecoline Hydrobromide?

Auslifter

Auslifter

Well-known member
Massive bro's don't want to believe me. Kai Greene wouldn't put a dangerous ingredient in his pre workout!!! ;)

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Anyone got studies about it? That prove its not safe? mr.cooper69
 
It's (Arecoline-induced changes of poly-ADP-ribosylation of cellular proteins and its influence on chromatin organization.)

not (Arecoline-induced growth arrest and p21WAF1 expression are dependent on p53 in rat hepatocytes.)

like (Synergistic effects of nicotine on arecoline-induced cytotoxicity in human buccal mucosal fibroblasts.

there (The induction of prostaglandin E2 production, interleukin-6 production, cell cycle arrest, and cytotoxicity in primary oral keratinocytes and KB cancer cells by areca nut ingredients is differentially regulated by MEK/ERK activation.)

are (Effects of arecoline in relaxing human umbilical vessels and inhibiting endothelial cell growth.)

any (Characterization of arecoline-induced effects on cytotoxicity in normal human gingival fibroblasts by global gene expression profiling.)

studies (A metabolomic approach to the metabolism of the areca nut alkaloids arecoline and arecaidine in the mouse.)

showing (Immunosuppression, hepatotoxicity and depression of antioxidant status by arecoline in albino mice.)

arecoline (Arecoline cytotoxicity on human oral mucosal fibroblasts related to cellular thiol and esterase activities.)

itself (In vitro effects of arecoline on sperm motility and cyclooxygenase-2 expression.)

to (Arecoline is cytotoxic for human endothelial cells)

be (Effects of arecoline on hepatic cytochrome P450 activity and oxidative stress.)

toxic (The hepatotoxicity and testicular toxicity induced by arecoline in mice and protective effects of vitamins C and e.)
 
^^^^ WOW.

Woody said:
I say let natural selection do its work.
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Since we're mentioned in the IG discussion and nearly any other arecoline discussion, I'd like to chime in here.

The issue with your "natural selection" argument (even if it's in jest) gets to the root of the problem: people taking this who do NOT do the research. Because it's being marketed to people who are clearly not your average Anabolic Minds, well-researched readers.

I seriously have far less of a problem with people selling this than a lot of other industry voices. If it's on an underground research chemical site, it's not as big of a deal.

But the second you slap three HUGE celebrity names on products containing it, the entire game changes.

That's when it's time to educate as many people as possible. If you still want to take it for the buzz after doing the research, go for it. But everyone knows damn well that the vast majority of Kai Greene's or Dana Linn Bailey's massive fanbases are not going to look up every last ingredient, and there is indeed risk of harm. Not worth it.

Keep it underground lest the media and FDA bring complete ruination to our entire industry and rewrite DSHEA for the 10000X worse.
 
Lol @ massivejoes. That guy is something else.

Come on PricePlow we all know you "created drama in order to obtain website traffic" (not srs)
 
PricePlow said:
^^^^ WOW.



Since we're mentioned in the IG discussion and nearly any other arecoline discussion, I'd like to chime in here.

The issue with your "natural selection" argument (even if it's in jest) gets to the root of the problem: people taking this who do NOT do the research. Because it's being marketed to people who are clearly not your average Anabolic Minds, well-researched readers.

I seriously have far less of a problem with people selling this than a lot of other industry voices. If it's on an underground research chemical site, it's not as big of a deal.

But the second you slap three HUGE celebrity names on products containing it, the entire game changes.

That's when it's time to educate as many people as possible. If you still want to take it for the buzz after doing the research, go for it. But everyone knows damn well that the vast majority of Kai Greene's or Dana Linn Bailey's massive fanbases are not going to look up every last ingredient, and there is indeed risk of harm. Not worth it.

Keep it underground lest the media and FDA bring complete ruination to our entire industry and rewrite DSHEA for the 10000X worse.
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It was in jest and aimed at the Averagejoes fella, not the general public. I agree with you on educating the general public. I personally was not aware of the toxic effects until your blog and AM. However, I tend to stick to a very small group of companies when I purchase products. And have found most celebrity lines of supplements fall way below expectations.
 
funny how they worship marc lol and are best buddies. this video should tell you how much they know about science..

[video=youtube;zu7hiDhydDc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zu7hiDhydDc[/video]
 
Auslifter said:
Massive bro's don't want to believe me. Kai Greene wouldn't put a dangerous ingredient in his pre workout!!! ;)

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Anyone got studies about it? That prove its not safe? mr.cooper69
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Wait, is 1mg for a mouse really equivalent to 4000mg for a human? That doesn't seem quite right.

According to the FDA, a mouse weighs between 0.018-0.033 kg. Assume the lower number, and 1mg for a 0.018kg mouse is 55.56mg/kg. Multiply that by 0.08, and assume an 80kg human, and you have less than 400mg, or less than 1/10 of the 4000mg amount he said. I know that these are just approximate values and estimates, but it seems like he based the dosing only on bodyweight, without factoring in body surface area (that would give you about 4000mg for a human).
 
That guy did have a point though. In the context of you saying, "rats were given just 1 mg of it and they died. Kai green's formula has 12 mg..."
He said rat dosage is not the same as humans

Of course this is beside the point because the stuff is dangerous. But we need to have better arguments than to just say that rats died with 1 mg, this stuff has 12 mg, therefore its bad.
 
Youtube- home of self proclaimed "experts". It's sad people think of these youtubers as authority figures or even people that are smarter than the drunk homeless guy babbling on the park bench.
 
Afi140 said:
Lol @ massivejoes. That guy is something else.

Come on PricePlow we all know you "created drama in order to obtain website traffic" (not srs)
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Haha! Sadly, the posts have NOT gotten much traffic considering what's at stake. You probably know how much work it is to produce some of the long content we write. It's hit or miss. We could be spending that time on technology or marketing, but this post was not one of those times.

We'll have to analyze and add more research from De__eB's post - although the links have been taken down for some reason (spam filters?)

Hockeyaus33 said:
That guy did have a point though. In the context of you saying, "rats were given just 1 mg of it and they died. Kai green's formula has 12 mg..."
He said rat dosage is not the same as humans

Of course this is beside the point because the stuff is dangerous. But we need to have better arguments than to just say that rats died with 1 mg, this stuff has 12 mg, therefore its bad.
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The question is, what HED (Human Equivalent Dose) equation are they using? The math he did seemed like he was just trying to convert by weight, which is NOT how it works.

We brought this to question on the thread attached, but the comments were deleted and now we're banned from their Instagram. What a joke.

We will soon be publishing better conversions using expert, credentialed scientists. If they determine that "this dose is okay", we'll gladly retract some of the commentary.

However, anytime you have 43% of male mice getting cancer from something, as well as a dozen other negative studies, you should be extremely careful.
 
PricePlow said:
Haha! Sadly, the posts have NOT gotten much traffic considering what's at stake. You probably know how much work it is to produce some of the long content we write. It's hit or miss. We could be spending that time on technology or marketing, but this post was not one of those times.

We'll have to analyze and add more research from De__eB's post - although the links have been taken down for some reason (spam filters?)



The question is, what HED (Human Equivalent Dose) equation are they using? The math he did seemed like he was just trying to convert by weight, which is NOT how it works.

We brought this to question on the thread attached, but the comments were deleted and now we're banned from their Instagram. What a joke.

We will soon be publishing better conversions using expert, credentialed scientists. If they determine that "this dose is okay", we'll gladly retract some of the commentary.

However, anytime you have 43% of male mice getting cancer from something, as well as a dozen other negative studies, you should be extremely careful.
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I will never pretend to be sciencey, but from a layman and legal perspective, this seems like a catastrophe waiting to happen. Granted, mice and human aren't the same, and it may take a much different dose in mice, and i obviously don't know the dosing protocol, but I would guess that in order to obtain the desired effects in humans, there is a similar level of cancer risk in humans.
 
Auslifter said:
all natty bro
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I mean, I guess if massivejoes just wants to plug his ears and lie...fact is that study was on arecoline, not betel nut...but hey, lets not assume malice, lets just assume he can't ****ing read, not his fault bro.

I picked out studies on arecoline specifically, you couldn't fit a list of all the toxicity studies on betel nut into a single post there's so many (literally hundreds)

--

There might be one I've missed, but I'm actually not aware of a single human orally-dosed safety study on arecoline existing.

The longest term live human study of any sort was two weeks IV.

No research department would ever in a million years attempt a human oral safety study, given the overwhelmingly massive list of different ways the compound is potentially toxic.

I'd love to see how any supplement company could possibly put forth that they think that there is a reasonable expectation that an arecoline supplement for up to several months consumption is something you can conclude from the published data.
 
Do they even understand how human equivalent dosages work? Its not done just by scaling for weight lol

Can someone please point this out? Lol
 
Jiigzz said:
Do they even understand how human equivalent dosages work? Its not done just by scaling for weight lol

Can someone please point this out? Lol
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This. If they can't even convert doses properly, I don't trust them to give accurate advice regarding the safety of an ingredient. But they have a picture of a chemical structure, so they must know what they're talking about. I can picture them shouting "Hexagons! Lines! Elements! Math! I know science!"
Strong science is strong.
 
Massive Joes said:
1mg of Arecoline was administered to mice 5 days per week, every week, for up to 25 months - the equivalent of approximately 4000mg 5 days per week, every week for 80 years in a human
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Really takes pulling numbers out of your ass to whole new level.

Massive Joes said:
Consequently, the FDA and TGA have not indicated that there is any safety issue associated with the consumption of the synthetic extract Arecoline Hydrobromide.
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I'd really like to know what a "synthetic extract" is.

Is it a synthetic ingredient, or is it an extract from Betel nut. It's both!
 
Isn't arecoline just great?
In conclusion, betel nut extract and arecoline have diabetogenic potential on adipocytes that may result in insulin resistance and diabetes at least in part via the obstruction of insulin signaling and the blockage of lipid storage...
In conclusion, betel nut extract and arecoline not only affect the expression of critical genes related to adipogenesis but also directly impair insulin signaling in adipocytes. Our findings may explain, at least in part, the link between betel nut chewing and metabolic syndrome.
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-Betel nut extract and arecoline block insulin signaling and lipid storage in 3T3-L1 adipocytes

From another study:
The systemic effects of areca nut are mainly due to the principle alkaloid arecoline... Arecoline interferes with the fat metabolism leading to Type II diabetes, metabolic syndromes and deranged blood lipid levels
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That makes perfect sense to include in a supplement that is, at least indirectly, intended to help improve body composition and fitness (I assume that's what people want from a pre-workout; increased energy and focus leading to better workouts leading to better gains in strength and/or muscle and/or reductions in body fat).
 
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NoAddedHmones


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Results on the efficiency and toxicity of arecoline hydrobromide during the first 11 years of the hydatid limitation program in Tasmania are presented. A satisfactory mucous purge was obtained from about 80% of dogs when arecoline was used at 3.25 mg/kg and from about 75% when the dose rate was reduced to 1.62 mg/kg of body weight. Arecoline is considered to have a low efficiency in detecting tapeworm infection in individual dogs, but is valuable as a diagnostic aid in groups of dogs.Toxicity was seen as acute cardiac collapse in about 5 dogs per 1000 dosed. Deaths followed in 1 dog in about 9,500.
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NoAddedHmones said:
Haha good dude!

I pulled them up on their HED conversion before but didn't get a response.
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they will most likely block me soon enough lol

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imagine if the poor bugger from india dropped dead and massive joes / Kai got fined and jail time, then cracked down by AFP
 
NoAddedHmones said:
Their answer back to my question, do you have anything showing its safe for humans at the dosage in these products? Was, do you have anything to show its not?

Lol come on now...
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But yes, yes you do. Lol
 
Honestly I think I'll stay away from it until we see more research or evidence on it
 
I find it amusing they used that caffeine comparison for the dose to kill a rat.
Sure 100 mg caffeine won't kill us you are absolutely right.

But are we dealing with an acute overdose and death scenario?
No...

Carcinogens are fun little guys that don't necessarily need a "large enough dose"
Particularly not when you are running this product for probably 4-8 weeks at a time
 
Massive Fools are Marc Lobliner clones in Australia. They've been caught shilling together before, with ProSupps protein spiking. 2-3 videos trying to show how adding free-form aminos that are included in the total protein content - still isn't spiking. (Note: To be fair, that particular legal case was withdrawn by the plaintiff voluntarily - meaning no one has to say what the reasons were. IMO, it was a payoff, but maybe it wasn't spiked, although looking at the label, how it couldn't have been, is beyond me.) I absolutely detest Massive Joe's and MTS. Welcome to the part of the industry that everyone complains about - shilling for cancer. Thank god Marc is hammering those SARMs though!
 
Maybe those two companies can offer a BOGO? Buy 1 Kai Greene tub, and get a pack of Marlboros for free?

It would be pure gold if instead of caffeine as their safety example, they used Nicotine. A can of Copenhagen can kill someone if you know how, LOL

To convert the dose used in a mouse to a dose based on surface area for humans, multiply X mg/kg by the Km factor (3) for a mouse and then divide by the Km factor (37) for a human
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Do they even BSA, bros? So assuming the 1mg is 1mg/kg for the mouse, 8mg *could* cause a 220lb guy to develop cancer. 1x3/37=0.08x100(kg)=8
 
Massive joes deleted my comment on their picture of me saying to not trust anyone who can't convert doses correctly. Lol
 
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