Hastur
Well-known member
You're anecdotal reports have been invaluable, crowbar. I really appreciate you taking the time to post updates and insights, it's helped a great many other users, myself included.
The Official OL UK Cardar1ne Q&A
- Thread starter Olympus UK
- Start date
You're anecdotal reports have been invaluable, crowbar. I really appreciate you taking the time to post updates and insights, it's helped a great many other users, myself included.
gagandugan
Active member
So, what's the consensus here? Dose at 7 or 14mg, do lower weight/higher rep training, and eat low fat/medium carbs/high protein diet for cutting? Have some carbs in you before the workout?
NewAgeMayan
Well-known member
GW will tend to compliment higher rep training (where fatigue and endurance are more of a factor) than lower rep.
crowbar46
Active member
You're quite welcome.
muay thai
Member
Bump for clarification / confirmation
crowbar46
Active member
I think that's the basic idea. Cardarine also compliments GPP work, complexes, circuits, etc. very well. Yes, I would not go over 14 mg./day. As I've said, I felt like **** at 21 mg./day.
If you haven't taken a look at it yet, check out the link I have earlier in this thread to an article and discussion of GW from a web site called metabolic alchemy. The discussion which follows the article contains a LOT of information from a PH.D. in biochemistry from the University of Chicago--invaluable.
Note that the PH.D. believes that Cardarine can induce rhabdomyolysis (rapid breakdown of muscle tissue) in high doses. This jives with what I experienced at 21 mg./day: very achy muscles and loss of strength. He also believes that Cardarine DOES pose a cancer risk; not so much in initiating cancer, but it increasing the proliferation of pre-existing colon polyps that are undetected.
CJNator
Well-known member
That might be the reason I made little gains on my LGD run, makes sense.
gagandugan
Active member
Thank you, that is very helpful. I will use it for cutting, going for moderate carbs and lower fat - but I think 7mg of Cardarine will be enough for me, when combined with Exotherm (transdermal supplement) and Norcordrene. Let's see if we can attack some stubborn fat from different angles. I will do some higher rep training with machines, instead of my standard Greyskull LP barbell routine. Might be a nice change of pace anyway, because I was thinking about a deload to help my joints anyway.
chedapalooza
Legend
Son of a bish. Colon cancer is the only cancer that runs in my family. I've yet to have a colonoscopy and certainly don't plan on having one before I PLANNED on using GW next month. Seems like I would be foolish to use it at this point...
crowbar46
Active member
Thoughts on Cardarine:
1) I have to admit, I'm really intrigued by Cardarine's insulin sensitizing effects. It's very strong in this regard and can easily be felt. It's general metabolic and cardiovascular effects can't be overlook either: increases HDL, decreases LDL, lowers blood presure, and significantly increases mitochondrial biogenesis!
2) The research also seems very clear on this point: Cardarine is a potent uncoupler--it significantly increases the rate of use of fatty acids for mitochondrial energy production.
3) However, I think the endurance aspect is somewhat over stated, for weight training at least. I'm at 6 1/2 weeks, and despite changing up my training I'm not really experiencing a dramatic increase in endurance. Now keep in mind I've been training in the lower rep ranges, heavier weight, lower volume for quite some time, so I'm naturally less adapted to this kind of training. I think to see really dramatic increases in endurance with cardarine you may need to be a pure endurance athlete.
4) Interestingly, after droping my dose to 14 mg./day I seem to be leaning out better/faster. I don"t know if this is because I've simply been on the Cardarine and Gharine long enough for the effects to be more noticible, or if it had something directly to due with droping the dose. I know I feel much better at 14 mg./day.
5) So, for me, Cardarine does seem to have a nice leaning effect. How much of this is due to just the Cardarine, and how much is due to the Gharine is impossible to say exactly. However, the Gharine is going to produce more subtle effects over a much longer time whereas the Cardarine is potent enough of an insulin sensitizer and mitochondrial uncoupler to produce much more immediate effects. So, the two do make an excellent combo (especially since the Cardarine can help ward off any slight increase in fasting blood glucose and decrease in insulin sensitivity brought on by the Gharine).
6) The effects of Cardarine are particularly useful to me as I have issues with insulin sensitivity, and cardiovascular disease and diabetes run in my family. I have to say, however, that I have lingering doubts about the safety of cardarine
7) Interestingly, epicatechin seems to have many of the same effects as Cardarine--insulin sensitizing, blood pressure lowering, increased fat burning, mitochondrial biogensis, improvements in blood lipids, increased endurance, etc.! So, as I said, I'll be replacing the Cardarine in about 2 1/2 weeks with Epic Unleashed and continuing my present style of training. It'll be interesting to see if the fat loss continues at its present pace--which I'm very pleased with.
1) I have to admit, I'm really intrigued by Cardarine's insulin sensitizing effects. It's very strong in this regard and can easily be felt. It's general metabolic and cardiovascular effects can't be overlook either: increases HDL, decreases LDL, lowers blood presure, and significantly increases mitochondrial biogenesis!
2) The research also seems very clear on this point: Cardarine is a potent uncoupler--it significantly increases the rate of use of fatty acids for mitochondrial energy production.
3) However, I think the endurance aspect is somewhat over stated, for weight training at least. I'm at 6 1/2 weeks, and despite changing up my training I'm not really experiencing a dramatic increase in endurance. Now keep in mind I've been training in the lower rep ranges, heavier weight, lower volume for quite some time, so I'm naturally less adapted to this kind of training. I think to see really dramatic increases in endurance with cardarine you may need to be a pure endurance athlete.
4) Interestingly, after droping my dose to 14 mg./day I seem to be leaning out better/faster. I don"t know if this is because I've simply been on the Cardarine and Gharine long enough for the effects to be more noticible, or if it had something directly to due with droping the dose. I know I feel much better at 14 mg./day.
5) So, for me, Cardarine does seem to have a nice leaning effect. How much of this is due to just the Cardarine, and how much is due to the Gharine is impossible to say exactly. However, the Gharine is going to produce more subtle effects over a much longer time whereas the Cardarine is potent enough of an insulin sensitizer and mitochondrial uncoupler to produce much more immediate effects. So, the two do make an excellent combo (especially since the Cardarine can help ward off any slight increase in fasting blood glucose and decrease in insulin sensitivity brought on by the Gharine).
6) The effects of Cardarine are particularly useful to me as I have issues with insulin sensitivity, and cardiovascular disease and diabetes run in my family. I have to say, however, that I have lingering doubts about the safety of cardarine
7) Interestingly, epicatechin seems to have many of the same effects as Cardarine--insulin sensitizing, blood pressure lowering, increased fat burning, mitochondrial biogensis, improvements in blood lipids, increased endurance, etc.! So, as I said, I'll be replacing the Cardarine in about 2 1/2 weeks with Epic Unleashed and continuing my present style of training. It'll be interesting to see if the fat loss continues at its present pace--which I'm very pleased with.
TheMovement
Well-known member
You know honestly I truly respect your feedback and attention to detail. Your results and training style have given solid advice to our customers and you sir had a great run! Plz keep in touch!
Shin Sprints
Member
I am currently taking Cardar1ne 14mg and Gher1ne 10mg, 5 weeks now...I have seen what I believe to be good cardio benefits.
I am however thinking of dropping Gher1ne...#1, Sleep has deteriorated after a great start, #2 I seem to be "overeating" due to appetite, #3 water retention.
I wanted to recomp and in the last 5 weeks I feel I have gone backwards even though for the most part things have been in check with what I did just prior to starting the stack, except last two weeks my calories have upticked but not enough to see the bloat I am currently seeing. Maybe best to take Gher1ne on a slow bulk.
I definitely look worse than I did 6 weeks ago but strength has maintained maybe improved. Weight is stable.
CJNator
Well-known member
If you want to limit hunger take it closer to bed time so you wake up hungry instead if being hungry threw out the day. No need to limit carbs because of GW but check out your sodium intake. My buddy is on it and was going down the same route but a day ago he just woke up dry and vascular with a little more bodyfat then usual. I read somewhere on here to take it with 3mg of melatonin so maybe that can help with sleep.
Shin Sprints
Member
I take it close to bed but still seem to want to eat more. Maybe I will front front calories after post workout, I workout in the morning.
Maybe I am being a little too sensitive on the water retention, at least I hope it is water retention
It is not like I am turning into a blimp, just not seeing much from my recomp. Perhaps I will stick it out for the month and see how I am.
I am planning to run first ever run of anything starting in October...Osta/Derma for 8 weeks. Probably no harm to just bridge into it.
Sodium intake could be high through electrolyte usage in Amino IV.
Thanks.
chedapalooza
Legend
The Official OL UK Cardar1ne Q&A
All this bloating feedback is making me think i should wait til winter / I have a steady gf
... Which should be by winter lol I just have to figure out which one.
All this bloating feedback is making me think i should wait til winter / I have a steady gf
... Which should be by winter lol I just have to figure out which one.crowbar46
Active member
You're quite welcome, and I will stay in touch.
crowbar46
Active member
Yeah, the last thing I want to do is discourage anyone from using an OL product, but I wouldn't feel safe in your situation. It's honestly a damn shame, as I've really come to like Cardarine once I got the dose right and adjusted my expectations and understanding of it. However, on the bright side, this is just the start of new compounds that function as metabolic optimizers.
chedapalooza
Legend
Where did u say u saw the info RE colon cancer? I wonder if the addition of trib like has been suggest would help with this.
crowbar46
Active member
It was on metabolic alchemy. To be honest, the PH.D. I think was using colon polyps as an example. The point being that Cardarine may increase the rate of development of cancerous cells, rather than initiating them. Still, the same result for you I guess.
P.S. I linked to the article earlier in this thread.
chedapalooza
Legend
Then it would be the same for anyone..
crowbar46
Active member
Yes, to a degree. However, since you have a family history of cancer it seems especially questionable in your case. However, you're right, the same caution would apply to anyone, but especially those with a family history of cancer.
crowbar46
Active member
Interesting, it's been, what, 1 or 1 1/2 weeks since I droped my dose down to 14 Mg./day. Today when I did my 45 Min. morning walk I really felt the endurance kick in. I just felt aerobically powerful, for lack of a better phrase. This morning walk takes me 45 Min., EXACTLY--every time; today it took me 43 Min. That may not seem like a big difference, but for something that's been very consistently locked in at 45 Min., it is significant. I also felt not only like I could have, but also like I wanted to keep on going.
Maybe, at least for me, at 21 Mg./day the insulin sensitizing effects, in some way, overwhelm the endurance/increased fat burning aspects. I know having low blood sugar definitely makes you feel like crap.
Maybe, at least for me, at 21 Mg./day the insulin sensitizing effects, in some way, overwhelm the endurance/increased fat burning aspects. I know having low blood sugar definitely makes you feel like crap.
crowbar46
Active member
Here's an interesting read for you concerning melatonin 's role in cancer prevention:
Invalid Link Removed
NewAgeMayan
Well-known member
GW's role, or really the role of
PPARs, in cancer cell proliferation is frustratingly unclear presently. The study data is conflicting, with no shortage of studies demonstrating an inhibitory effect by PPAR activity.
It would be interesting to hear the MA authors view on such studies.
PPARs, in cancer cell proliferation is frustratingly unclear presently. The study data is conflicting, with no shortage of studies demonstrating an inhibitory effect by PPAR activity.
It would be interesting to hear the MA authors view on such studies.
crowbar46
Active member
I agree, very frustrating; especially since I do think Cardarine has great potential. However, as I said, hopefully Cardarine is just the first crude attempt at "metabolic optimizers" and other attempts will follow.
NewAgeMayan
Well-known member
For sure. It appears studies into the function and behaviour of PPARd, utilising agonists such as GW, continue. Perhaps they will conjure up some future agonist that is purely sective for the muscle tissue receptors, thereby eliminating the cancer concern with other tissues. Or maybe they will invent something with a completely different MoA.
chedapalooza
Legend
Great read thanks!
muay thai
Member
I had 2 bottles . I will be on my 2nd bottle soon - after reading this, I will probably discontinue after bottle is finished - unless I have an endurance event coming up. I am also on my 2nd bottle of rad - like this one a lot. May get a 3rd and run it back to back. LGD looks promising
For mean time I dropped back down to 14mg after crowbars reports
best wishes to all
For mean time I dropped back down to 14mg after crowbars reports
best wishes to all
crowbar46
Active member
Muay thai, could you give a quick rundown on what you've gotten from the Rad?
Also, have you noticed anything once you dropped the Cardarine to 14 mg.? Personally, it seems to work much better for me at 14 Mg.
rtmilburn
Well-known member
Sr9009 is being studied right now and looks even more promising then gw.
crowbar46
Active member
Yes, however, the developer of SR has purportedly said it has "no oral bioavailability". He further claims that there legitimate concerns about its safety and toxicity.
Now, this is all based on an email that someone posted on Reddit purported to be correspondence with the developer. I have not verified this information; I guess I've just been too lazy to hunt the good doctor down and email him--hint, hint.
booneman77
Legend
So here's my mid-vacation update:
Been having carbs with my evening meals each night (various amount from just a few cookies to a full pasta night). Runs in the mornings are pretty much on par with what my normal morning workouts would have been. Recovery day to day seems to be poor though and as before, I'm dragging ass by the evening/dinner time. Seems this far that there is no benefit to adding carbs to my diet as this has not helped the mid-late day low blood sugar issues.
Also of note, and something I haven't mentioned before but has been prevalent, is that post workout recovery has been steadily declining. I am sore and fatigued for more than a day sometimes more than two after almost every workout. Prior to starting cardarine I was on Abe and Xgels and the doms were almost nonexistent even one day post. Now they last 2-3 at times. Even this week with only running, my calves and quads have been progressively more and more sore and fatigued each day and is seemingly compounding.
At this point I have to say that cardarine simply doesn't fit well with an IF style diet, regardless of the macro breakdown. I'll update again at the end of the week.
Been having carbs with my evening meals each night (various amount from just a few cookies to a full pasta night). Runs in the mornings are pretty much on par with what my normal morning workouts would have been. Recovery day to day seems to be poor though and as before, I'm dragging ass by the evening/dinner time. Seems this far that there is no benefit to adding carbs to my diet as this has not helped the mid-late day low blood sugar issues.
Also of note, and something I haven't mentioned before but has been prevalent, is that post workout recovery has been steadily declining. I am sore and fatigued for more than a day sometimes more than two after almost every workout. Prior to starting cardarine I was on Abe and Xgels and the doms were almost nonexistent even one day post. Now they last 2-3 at times. Even this week with only running, my calves and quads have been progressively more and more sore and fatigued each day and is seemingly compounding.
At this point I have to say that cardarine simply doesn't fit well with an IF style diet, regardless of the macro breakdown. I'll update again at the end of the week.
thu_hobbit
Active member
Good update but not good to hear since i plan on running cardarine for 12 weeks startin in november. Hopefully ill be a good tesponder. If not ill cut it out and sell my bottles
crowbar46
Active member
I think you're right about it not working with IF. Also, keep in mind the type of carbs you're consuming. I think Cardarine really increases insulin sensitivity, and I've noticed most of my low blood sugar issues would revolve around times when I consumed fast digesting, high glycolic, carbs--for example, Peri-workout. The carbs combined with Cardarine and the insulin sensitizing effects of weight training really got to me more than a few times.
The excessive muscle soreness and poor recovery are warning signs, in my opinion. Whatever your dose, it's likely too high. Once I read the discussion on metabolic alchemy where the PH.D. in biochemistry from the university of Chicago expressed his belief that Cardarine could induce rhabdomyolysis in "high doses" I knew what I had experienced was not just in my head! Problem is, "high doses" is going to be different for everyone.
gagandugan
Active member
I'll give it a try (7mg only) soon with intermittent fasting, but without even attempting to go for low carbs. If I don't feel good, I'll eat breakfast and report if there are any changes. I really appreciate everyone's feedback, this thread has been very helpful.
booneman77
Legend
I've been dosing 14mg since the start. Maybe I will drop to 7 after this week and see if that makes a difference.
The carb source hasn't mattered as I've had different types ranging from pastas to potatoes to root veggies to candy/cookies. All with mixed amounts of fats as well.
cubs1987
Well-known member
let us know how it goes!
crowbar46
Active member
Yeah, this points to one (of several) problems with Cardarine: it may be too damn strong of an AMPK activator. Maybe 7 Mg. is a better dose for what most people on forums like this want to use it for?
Well, I'd been thinking about this for a while anyway, so tomorrow I'll be going down to 7 Mg. for the remainder of my cycle (2 1/2 weeks, 9 weeks total).
At this point, I'd have to say Cardarine is out for me. I'm really excited, however, to see how Epic Unleashed will do replacing Cardarine. They are actually remarkably similar in many of their effects.
chedapalooza
Legend
Interesting stuff guys. I have a bottle of cardar1ne coming and was planning to start in October. Had no plans of going over 14mg based on all the reports here, but now I'm thinking I will cruise with 7 and see what I see. I'm slightly apprehensive though bc I do IF as well and have pretty poor recoverability as it is... I am also on varying doses of forskolin year round and think I'll be using shift in October.. Might be overkill in the AMPK department ..?
kboxer7
Well-known member
Meant to hit you back on the Tribulus with GW for COX-2 inhibition....COX-1 and COX-2 are very interesting as it pertains to muscle growth and I think I'm going to be doing a LONG write-up on the topic soon.
Anyway, back to Tribulus. It has a VERY short half-life (2.5 hours) so I'm going to split up dosing 3-4x daily due to the long half life of Carderine. I haven't had time to extrapolate an equivalent human dosing based on the study showing an 80% inhibition of COX-2, so I'm not 100% sure on that aspect as of yet.
I scooped up Tribulus-750 240 Capsules by SNS over at Nutri during the labor day sale. So I'm thinking maybe 4 caps of 750mg/day, and I'm going to leave a 4 hour gap between Trib doses and my workouts due to COX-2 inhibition's possible negative effects on muscle growth.
booneman77
Legend
I actually will be doing an almost identical comparison as I'm going to start logging an epi product as well. Should be interesting to continue to compare notes.
chedapalooza
Legend
I recall USP labs saying to dose one serving prior to workout which is interesting bc that was a a trib extract... And I always had good results doing such
kboxer7
Well-known member
I'm likely going to do a large write-up since the matter is more complicated than it is black and white, but take for instance that multiple studies conducted on humans and animals have repeatedly shown significant decreases in satellite cell activity in the presence of NSAIDs (from COX inhibition) administered after muscle damage from physical exertion or induced damage.
Cyclooxygenase (COX) works to catalyze the conversion of ArA to pro-inflammatory prostanoids. Prostanoids are in part responsible for muscle soreness, promoting inflammation and sensitizing nocioceptors. Inhibiting COX can stop the synthesis of prostanoids, which have been shown to stimulate satellite cell differentiation, proliferation, and fusion.
Prostanoids also play a significant role in anabolic signalling and are involved (at least in part) in pathways that function in muscle protein synthesis. Which obviously is a good thing....unless you inhibit COX, and thus inhibit generation of prostanoids in the first place.
Since many may use Trib or other COX inhibitors to mediate any "possible" risks associated with GW, I thought it prudent to at least bring it up.
Yates Hastur - Is there a more appropriate place for me to post my write-up on this when completed?
References:
Palmer, RM. Prostaglandins and the control of muscle protein synthesis and degradation. Prostaglandins Leukot. Essent. Fatty Acids 39: 95-104, 1990.
Bondesen, BA, Mills, ST, and Pavlath, GK. The COX-2 pathway regulates growth of atrophied muscle via multiple mechanisms. Am. J. Physiol., Cell Physiol. 290: 1651-1659, 2006.
Mackey, AL, Kjaer, M, Dandanell, S, Mikkelsen, KH, Holm, L, Dossing, S, Kadi, F, Koskinen, SO, Jensen, CH, Schroder, HD, and Langberg, H. The influence of anti-inflammatory medication on exercise-induced myogenic precursor cell responses in humans. J. Appl. Physiol. 103: 425-431, 2007.
Bondesen, BA, Mills, ST, Kegley, KM, and Pavlath, GK. The COX-2 pathway is essential during early stages of skeletal muscle regeneration. Am. J. Physiol. , Cell Physiol. 287: 475-483, 2004.
Mikkelsen, UR, Langberg, H, Helmark, IC, Skovgaard, D, Andersen, LL, Kjaer, M, and Mackey, AL. Local NSAID infusion inhibits satellite cell proliferation in human skeletal muscle after eccentric exercise. J. Appl. Physiol. 107: 1600-1611, 2009.
Hastur
Well-known member
I look forward to your write up! I think this is an excellent place for you to post it for the time being, unless Yates has a better idea in mind.
There have been a lot of points made in this thread I'd like to address, but I just don't have the time today to do so. I am pleased that my point made earlier regarding COX-2 inhibition has not been forgotten. And we all must realize, that many many things affect COX-2, and that we cannot start overemphasizing the pros and cons of such effects. I know people who use ArA are advised to avoid COX-2 inhibitors within a certain time frame, but considering almost every meal I eat contains Curry/Turmeric/Curcumin, that would be impossible for me. Most people aren't even aware of how many things affect COX-2.
I also want to state that I still feel that the studies regarding GW and cancer are flawed, as I detailed in previous posts. Because it did move forward to human trials after the animal studies, something you would not see with a high risk substance. The risk was associated with it's co-administration of another compound. This is not related to PPAR modulation, and even then, there are many conflicting studies showing PPAR being both cancer protective and promoting. However GW is less crude than fibrates in my opinion, so I also wouldn't say it is a crude attempt at a 'metabolic optimizer'. Sorry for the hasty post, it's a busy day!
kboxer7
Well-known member
Thank you Hastur.
I agree with you on the flawed studies regarding GW and cancer. And I agree that one should not overthink things too much. I wanted to bring this to light only due to my finding that Tribulus has an astonishing rate of COX-2 inhibition, clocking in at a whopping 80%.
So in that regard, and given the short half-life of Trib, I thought it worth noting that one may indeed want to wait a few hours pre/post workout before popping a few more pills of Trib if they intend to include a COX-2 inhibitor with their Carderine (which is not mandatory by any means).
Hastur
Well-known member
I had specifically mentioned Tribulus in my initial post recommending co-administration of COX-2 inhibitors with Cardarine, however I hadn't stated the amount of inhibition. I don't think I was aware it was 80%. Excellent job, kboxer7. Again, looking forward to this write up!
gagandugan
Active member
That's really interesting. I think I'll go with some single-ingredient Tribulus supplement. They are all fairly cheap, it can't hurt.