ELROCK
Well-known member
Will it offer...Improved recovery? Reduced DOMS?
The Official OL UK Ghar1ne Q&A
- Thread starter Olympus UK
- Start date
Will it offer...Improved recovery? Reduced DOMS?
yates84
Well-known member
Deeper, better sleep and increased gh will definitely improve recovery
ELROCK
Well-known member
I figured that, but was suprised you didn't mention the improved recovery aspect. Do you believe there to be any cartilage/tendon healing properties? Have users mentioned any reduction in joint pain?
ZackD89
Member
From the label, it looks like Ghar1ne is ibutamoren, rather than ibutamoren meyslate. Is that correct? Would love to get my MK677 through OL, but it seems like the Mesylate form is the best.
I didn't know the difference until I saw this comment on /r/PEDs by a guy named Juiceupmonkey:
"Basically all the studies were done on ibutamoren mesylate. Comparing the two one to one, the hunger effect is much stronger on the mesylate, and I got tingling in my finger tips within a week of starting the mesylate. Didn't happen with the ibutamoren. Basically ibutamoren mesylate is the only thing that should actually be referred to as mk677."
Not trying to seem like a dick or anything--just wondering about which form you guys went with and if this distinction came up before
I didn't know the difference until I saw this comment on /r/PEDs by a guy named Juiceupmonkey:
"Basically all the studies were done on ibutamoren mesylate. Comparing the two one to one, the hunger effect is much stronger on the mesylate, and I got tingling in my finger tips within a week of starting the mesylate. Didn't happen with the ibutamoren. Basically ibutamoren mesylate is the only thing that should actually be referred to as mk677."
Not trying to seem like a dick or anything--just wondering about which form you guys went with and if this distinction came up before
yates84
Well-known member
That's a very good question, will get back to you on that asap
AndrewMcD
Member
Would like to know the answer to this too.
TShoot
Member
At 30mg I got tingling in my fingers and hands (next day) and forearms seemed tight. Happens EVERY day after I take 30mg pre-bed time. Less noticeable at 20mg.
Also, I thought the guy on Reddit was saying that even though it might not say it on the bottle, almost all of is was mesylate (albeit some of the batches might be at lower purity level).
ZackD89
Member
Good to read! I wonder if 30 mg is the ideal dose. I've been doing 20 mg (of BSL MK Ultra) and have been enjoying it, but the tingling is minimal.
The reddit guy I quoted was saying most companies DON'T use Mesylate. Here's the full quote:
"Basically all the studies were done on ibutamoren mesylate. Comparing the two one to one, the hunger effect is much stronger on the mesylate, and I got tingling in my finger tips within a week of starting the mesylate. Didn't happen with the ibutamoren. Basically ibutamoren mesylate is the only thing that should actually be referred to as mk677. But no one cares. The raw prices for ibutamoren mesylate are 4-5x more expensive so almost everyone doesn't do research and goes with ibutamoren"
I didn't put that last part in my earlier post BC I know Olympus is better than that and DOES care, but I'm posting it now to clarify
mechka_grizli
Well-known member
I would like to know this as well
mechka_grizli
Well-known member
ZackD89
Member
The Official OL UK Ghar1ne Q&A
I thought the Mesylate form was labeled with "Mesylate" after the Piperidine part. But I don't know--I'm far from a chemist
EDIT: here's how a peptide company labels their ibutamoren meyslate:
"(R)-1'-(2-Methylalanyl-O-benzyl-D-seryl)-1-(Methylsulfonyl)-1,2- dihydrospiro[indole-3,4'-piperidine] Mesylate"
I thought the Mesylate form was labeled with "Mesylate" after the Piperidine part. But I don't know--I'm far from a chemist
EDIT: here's how a peptide company labels their ibutamoren meyslate:
"(R)-1'-(2-Methylalanyl-O-benzyl-D-seryl)-1-(Methylsulfonyl)-1,2- dihydrospiro[indole-3,4'-piperidine] Mesylate"
peepingyoda
New member
I may run 5 on 2 off since I'm less interested in IGF than GH for joint/skin healing and recovery. If I recall from another reference, GH pulse enhancement is still present but considerably smaller after just a few weeks.
yates84
Well-known member
Maybe you're right, I'm not completely sure atm. I can't seem to find any literature on mk677 stating that nomenclature with mesylate on the end. I will find out soon though what we have. This is all new news to me
yates84
Well-known member
Ibutamoren and ibutamoren mesylate are the same thing, there are just a bunch of different synonyms for the same chemical structure. I have looked up the multiple formula names mk677 has on many different sites and their molecules are exactly the same. Prices are the same for all different structures as well. Someone is putting out some bad info, look around yourselves. It only took a few hours of research
ZackD89
Member
Thanks for looking into this Yates! Definitely going with Ghar1ne for my next MK-677 order.
crowbar46
Active member
Yates, can you clarify about the reduced GH pulse after just a couple of weeks consistent use? I thought the studies showed significantly enhanced GH production over extended periods of time.
Just to clarify another point, not all the studies have used only elderly people, one has used--I believe--26 yo. males. Yes, it showed significant increases in GH and IGF-1 production.
Just to clarify another point, not all the studies have used only elderly people, one has used--I believe--26 yo. males. Yes, it showed significant increases in GH and IGF-1 production.
mechka_grizli
Well-known member
I believe that study was only done for 7 days. The mean age was 32 years old used in that study
yates84
Well-known member
The studies where all done with 25mg. I simply said that with 10mg I was able to achieve the same effect (hand numbness, deep sleep) on my second cycle during the first month than when I dosed 25mg straight through. If you can achieve the same effect with 10 or 20mg then why would you want to dose 30mg? This is about getting the most out of a bottle of gharine
mechka_grizli
Well-known member
Also is there any risk of acromegaly with MK-677?
yates84
Well-known member
No. You will get nowhere near enough extra gh to cause any abnormal growth
crowbar46
Active member
I found some info (I think some of it was from endocrine.org?)
1) The increase in GH production from MK-677 did not plateau in HEALTHY MALES until doses of 100mg.!
2) It seems that GH response does decline after a week of use-the study was not long enough to say if further declines past one week of use occur--but GH levels, even after the decline, were much higher than placebo.
3) IGF-1 levels continue to increase the longer one uses it (at least up to a year).
3) dosages from 5mg. have been shown effective.
So, I guess increasing the dosage over time will help to offset this reduced response. I will use 10mg./night for the first week, moving to 20 mg./night for the next three weeks, then to 30mg./night where I'll stay for the duration of however long I decide to run it. It's just too pricey beyond that point.
1) The increase in GH production from MK-677 did not plateau in HEALTHY MALES until doses of 100mg.!
2) It seems that GH response does decline after a week of use-the study was not long enough to say if further declines past one week of use occur--but GH levels, even after the decline, were much higher than placebo.
3) IGF-1 levels continue to increase the longer one uses it (at least up to a year).
3) dosages from 5mg. have been shown effective.
So, I guess increasing the dosage over time will help to offset this reduced response. I will use 10mg./night for the first week, moving to 20 mg./night for the next three weeks, then to 30mg./night where I'll stay for the duration of however long I decide to run it. It's just too pricey beyond that point.
yates84
Well-known member
Thank you for finding some research to back up my personal experience. Repped
Kerch
New member
I'm not sure they are literally the same thing. Ibutamoren mesylate looks like this:
Invalid Link Removed
(The molecule in the bottom right is the mesylate)
I don't know if it actually matters. I might research it some more if I decide to use this.
ZackD89
Member
I'm back to thinking that Ibutamoren is different from Ibutamoren Meyslate. PubChem has two different pages for the two:
Ibutamoren: pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/178024
Ibutamoren Mesylate: pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Ibutamoren_mesylate
Those pages list Ibutamoren as: 2-amino-2-methyl-N-[(2R)-1-(1-methylsulfonylspiro[2H-indole-3,4'-piperidine]-1'-yl)-1-oxo-3-phenylmethoxypropan-2-yl]propanamide
and Ibutamore Mesylate as: 2-amino-2-methyl-N-[(2R)-1-(1-methylsulfonylspiro[2H-indole-3,4'-piperidine]-1'-yl)-1-oxo-3-phenylmethoxypropan-2-yl]propanamide;methanesulfonic acid
mechka_grizli
Well-known member
Olympus UK
New member
Ours is MK-677 Mesylate aka Ibutamoren Mesylate.
mechka_grizli
Well-known member
Is there a reason why MESYLATE was not included on the label?
NewAgeMayan
Well-known member
Ah, was wondering why you were advising a ramped dosing schedule, makes sense.
Olympus UK
New member
Might have been a minor oversight by my graphic designer as we instructed him to pull up the nomenclatures from google, and he must have seen every other company labeling it as that, but to be honest I believe if a company has access to real Mk677 its more than likely the mesylate.
Lots of "smart" people like to start rumors claiming they have mesylate while others have a different version, when in reality they may both very well have the mesylate, deceptive marketing wont change the fact that a non-mesylate version is probably not even being produced by raw suppliers
mechka_grizli
Well-known member
yates84
Well-known member
I had no issues what so ever using mk677. The only sides I got where all positive
crowbar46
Active member
I don't know about the chemical distinction you guys are discussing, but I too would like a definitive answer, just for peace of mind.
Having said that however, it may be a moot point as I can report:
1) first dose (10mg.) taken Wed. night (July, 22nd)--no noticeable effect
2) second dose--10mg.-- last night (Thur. July 23rd)--WOW! I don't sleep the greatest, but I did last night! 8 1/2 Hrs. of sound sleep!
I have a protein shake right before bed (as well as a lot of water throughout the day) so I usually wake once or twice to pee. I did last night also, and when I did I noticed tingling hands, which is continuing a bit this morning (mainly my left hand)!
I'll continue to update.
I've also started 14mg. Cardarine with breakfast (also on Wed.).
Having said that however, it may be a moot point as I can report:
1) first dose (10mg.) taken Wed. night (July, 22nd)--no noticeable effect
2) second dose--10mg.-- last night (Thur. July 23rd)--WOW! I don't sleep the greatest, but I did last night! 8 1/2 Hrs. of sound sleep!
I have a protein shake right before bed (as well as a lot of water throughout the day) so I usually wake once or twice to pee. I did last night also, and when I did I noticed tingling hands, which is continuing a bit this morning (mainly my left hand)!
I'll continue to update.
I've also started 14mg. Cardarine with breakfast (also on Wed.).
yates84
Well-known member
That's great! Keep us updated. I guess there is a difference between the two forms of Ibutamoren and a lot of sites have these twisted into one another. The superior form, Ibutamoren mesylate, is the form that is used in gharine. Sorry for the confusion guys, this was a tough question to figure out all the way
crowbar46
Active member
So far I'm thrilled--as short of a time as it's been. This is something you can feel right away, so just the increase in quality of sleep is BIG for me, not to mention the numerous other benefits one should see over time.
Just to let you know, I'll be 54 in Sept. (I've been training 30+ years), so I may experience a more noticeable or dramatic effect since my natural GH levels are lower at this point than younger trainers. However, several studies that I've seen have used much younger guys, all with the same results--increased GH and IGF-1 levels.
I'll look into the insulin resistance issue, as I thought IGF-1 was associated with increased insulin sensitivity.
Just to let you know, I'll be 54 in Sept. (I've been training 30+ years), so I may experience a more noticeable or dramatic effect since my natural GH levels are lower at this point than younger trainers. However, several studies that I've seen have used much younger guys, all with the same results--increased GH and IGF-1 levels.
I'll look into the insulin resistance issue, as I thought IGF-1 was associated with increased insulin sensitivity.
crowbar46
Active member
Here's something from Diabetes Care website:
Plasma Concentration of IGF-I Is Independently Associated With Insulin Sensitivity in Subjects With Different Degrees of Glucose Tolerance
Abstract
OBJECTIVE—We studied the relationships between plasma IGF-I concentrations and insulin sensitivity in subjects with various degrees of glucose tolerance.
RESEARCH DESIGN AND METHODS—A total of 357 nondiabetic subjects, 54 subjects with impaired glucose tolerance and 98 newly diagnosed type 2 diabetic subjects, were consecutively recruited, and anthropometric and biochemical characteristics were collected.
RESULTS—IGF-I concentrations were negatively correlated with age, BMI, waist-to-hip ratio, triglyceride levels, and systolic and diastolic blood pressure. IGF-I concentrations were positively correlated with HDL cholesterol and homeostasis model assessment of insulin sensitivity (HOMA-S). The correlations remained significant after adjusting for sex, age, and BMI. Correlations for HOMA-S with these metabolic and anthropometric variables were of a similar degree and direction to those for IGF-I concentrations. Stepwise linear regression analysis in a model, which included well-known modulators of insulin sensitivity such as sex, age, BMI, glucose tolerance status, family history of diabetes, waist-to-hip ratio, systolic and diastolic blood pressure, HDL cholesterol, and triglyceride levels, revealed that IGF-I concentrations were independently associated with insulin sensitivity accounting for 10.8% of its variation (P < 0.0001). IGF-I concentrations were significantly lower in subjects with World Health Organization (WHO)-defined metabolic syndrome compared with subjects without metabolic syndrome (P < 0.0001). Logistic regression analysis showed that each unit increase in log-transformed IGF-I concentrations was associated with a 90.5% reduction in the risk of WHO-defined metabolic syndrome.
CONCLUSIONS—These data indicate that IGF-I has the characteristics to be a marker for the insulin resistance syndrome. This suggests that low IGF-I levels may be a useful marker for identifying subjects at risk for cardiovascular disease.
GH, growth hormone HOMA-S, homeostasis model assessment of insulin sensitivity IGFBP, IGF binding protein IGT, impaired glucose tolerance WHO, World Health Organization
Footnotes
The costs of publication of this article were defrayed in part by the payment of page charges. This article must therefore be hereby marked “advertisement” in accordance with 18 U.S.C. Section 1734 solely to indicate this fact.
Accepted September 29, 2004.
Received May 4, 2004.
DIABETES CARE
doi: 10.2337/diacare.28.1.120 Diabetes Care January 2005 vol. 28 no. 1 120-125
» Abstract
Full Text
Full Text (PDF)
Email me this article
| Copyright © 2015 | Contact Us | Help Pages | Full Site
Hastur
Well-known member
I've had my eye on MK-677 for a few years now, almost pulled the trigger and got a bottle of Ghar1ne. I opted to get a bottle of Radar1ne instead, and thought I'd put it on my list for my next purchase. After reading your experience with increased quality of sleep, along with others, I really have to snag a bottle. I rarely have a good nights sleep, I toss and turn nearly every night. This product would be worth it just to get better sleep!
crowbar46
Active member
Hastur, yeah you'll enjoy the improved quality of sleep. Here's a little update on the Gharine:
1) last night (Fri., July 24th) was night three with 10mg. Gharine. I did sleep better than usual, but not as well as the night before. This tells me that I'm right at the tipping point of significant effects and will need to go to 20 mg./night to see real benefit.
However, there is a valid reason for starting out at 10mg./night for the first week. Aside from the issue of allowing your body to adjust to a new hormonal environment, MK will raise cortisol and prolactin levels TRANSIENTLY AND WITHIN NORMAL LIMITS. This effect is largely attenuated after one week of use--and, again, is very mild as levels only rise within normal limits.
I'll leave further comment until I've had more time to use it.
1) last night (Fri., July 24th) was night three with 10mg. Gharine. I did sleep better than usual, but not as well as the night before. This tells me that I'm right at the tipping point of significant effects and will need to go to 20 mg./night to see real benefit.
However, there is a valid reason for starting out at 10mg./night for the first week. Aside from the issue of allowing your body to adjust to a new hormonal environment, MK will raise cortisol and prolactin levels TRANSIENTLY AND WITHIN NORMAL LIMITS. This effect is largely attenuated after one week of use--and, again, is very mild as levels only rise within normal limits.
I'll leave further comment until I've had more time to use it.
Hastur
Well-known member
Oh yeah, this sounds wonderful to me. I think poor sleep is an under recognized aspect of what we do as well. If I sleep extremely poorly, workouts suffer, energy suffers, I put weight on... I will definitely be trying Gharine in the near future!
crowbar46
Active member
The nice thing about MK is that it's very versatile. It can be used during g a cut, a recomp, or during hypertrophy phases.
Yesterday I did notice just a tad of water retention--in my hands and ankles, but very mild. Today, so far, I don't notice it. Again, this tells me I'm probably sitting right at the tipping point dosage wise to see more substantial effects.
This coming Wed. (July 29th) I'll be going up to 20mg./night, and that's when I expect to see some more substantial effects to start kicking in.
Yesterday I did notice just a tad of water retention--in my hands and ankles, but very mild. Today, so far, I don't notice it. Again, this tells me I'm probably sitting right at the tipping point dosage wise to see more substantial effects.
This coming Wed. (July 29th) I'll be going up to 20mg./night, and that's when I expect to see some more substantial effects to start kicking in.
chedapalooza
Legend
Subd
crowbar46
Active member
Ok, so last night (Sun. July 26th) was my 5th dose@10mg. I hadn't been waking too hungry the first 3 nights, but the last two nights--especially last night--was bad! I woke, as I do once or twice a night to pee and was ravenously hungry! I ate quite a bit and then fell into a nice deep sleep. So, I'm just going to have to iron will it until I hit the 20mg. dose on Wed., which I suspect will put me in a much deeper sleep. When I wake from a deep sleep I'm never interested in food.
crowbar46
Active member
Update:
1) will be going up to 20 mg. tonight--one night earlier than planned--as sleep has been better than usual, but not as deep as I think this drug can help with. Also no tingling in hands really, just a slight bit of numbness in fingers. So, it's time to get the dose up and see what this can really do!
I'll let you know how it goes.
1) will be going up to 20 mg. tonight--one night earlier than planned--as sleep has been better than usual, but not as deep as I think this drug can help with. Also no tingling in hands really, just a slight bit of numbness in fingers. So, it's time to get the dose up and see what this can really do!
I'll let you know how it goes.
crowbar46
Active member
So, 20 mg. last night. Again, I slept better than I usually do, but nothing spectacular. I am waking in the night to pee very hungry and its a battle to resist!
I'm still not experiencing any real tingling in my hands, just a slight bit of numbness. I'll give the 20 mg./night dose a week; if I don't experience better sleep quality and tingling hands, I'll up it to 30 mg.
I can't say at this point as it hasn't been long enough, but OL may need to up the dosage In these caps to, say, 12 mg. each. This way 2 caps gets you to the dosage used in the vast majority of the studies, and 3 caps gets you about ~50% above. As the studies show, MK is well tolerated in high doses and the effect does not plateau until 100 mg. in healthy males.
If Gharine needs to be ran at 25-30 mg./night (or higher) to see significant effects, it makes it a pretty pricey drug at $70.00 for 90, 10 mg. caps.
I'm still not experiencing any real tingling in my hands, just a slight bit of numbness. I'll give the 20 mg./night dose a week; if I don't experience better sleep quality and tingling hands, I'll up it to 30 mg.
I can't say at this point as it hasn't been long enough, but OL may need to up the dosage In these caps to, say, 12 mg. each. This way 2 caps gets you to the dosage used in the vast majority of the studies, and 3 caps gets you about ~50% above. As the studies show, MK is well tolerated in high doses and the effect does not plateau until 100 mg. in healthy males.
If Gharine needs to be ran at 25-30 mg./night (or higher) to see significant effects, it makes it a pretty pricey drug at $70.00 for 90, 10 mg. caps.
yates84
Well-known member
It is a very pricey drug to manufacture. I was paying almost 100$ for rc mk677 that was 25mg per ml and had only 30ML. That's why I have only run mk twice!
crowbar46
Active member
Yes, I see. Whatever you guys do, don't stop making MK; it has great potential, not only for the GH effects, but the constantly elevated IGF-1 levels!