Exemestane Only PCT (Yet another thread)

[Bolics]

Exemestane lowers estrogen very effectively. It is a suicidal inhibitor of aromatase which means estrogen rebound is not possible after you stop taking it. It has also been shown to increase testosterone levels effectively.

This leads people to beleive it can be acceptable as a complete PCT on it's own.

On paper this makes quite a bit of sense. But the general belief among veteran AAS/Pro hormone users is that this is not acceptable and a SERM is always required. Some go as far to say that A.I's have no place in PCT.

My first question and debate topic is: Can Exemestane be used for a complete PCT on it's own? Is there ever a situation where that would be enough? Or is it ineffective even for very mild compounds?

It is fairly common knowlege that Exemestane stacks well with Nolvadex. I have used this protocol myself with fantastic effect ran in this style:
Week:---1---2---3----4-------5------6
Nolva:---20-20-10---10-----------------
Exem:------------25--12.5--12.5--6.25

Does the above protocol work well for other people? And would you say this protocol when scaled up in doseage would be enough to handle even fairly strong cycles?

Hopefully we can generate some useful debate and information on this thread and it can go out to help a few others asking the same questions. I am aware that this topic has come up multiple times but i feel the information given has never really been of any quality.

 

[sanmarino]

My first question and debate topic is: Can Exemestane be used for a complete PCT on it's own? Is there ever a situation where that would be enough? Or is it ineffective even for very mild compounds?

It is fairly common knowlege that Exemestane stacks well with Nolvadex. I have used this protocol myself with fantastic effect ran in this style:
Week:---1---2---3----4-------5------6
Nolva:---20-20-10---10-----------------
Exem:------------25--12.5--12.5--6.25

Does the above protocol work well for other people? And would you say this protocol when scaled up in doseage would be enough to handle even fairly strong cycles?

Hopefully we can generate some useful debate and information on this thread and it can go out to help a few others asking the same questions. I am aware that this topic has come up multiple times but i feel the information given has never really been of any quality.

What kind of a cycle are we talking about that you want to add an AI in PCT? In my opinion, an AI shouldn't be used in the PCT. 25mg/ed Exemestan ist very, very potent and will kill nearly the whole Estrogen you have. And the effect of estrogen is underrated in so many cases. People think only about to raise Testosterone but not Estrogen.

There is a reason why AI are preffered during the cycle and SERM in the PCT and not the other way. While AI won't affect the IGF-1 value (which is necessary) and SERM have a much bigger effect on the HTPA than AI. The restart of the HTPA is much easier with an SERM than with an AI. If you compare only that effect, you will need a much higher dosage of e.g. Exemestane. And that will - as a side effect - completely shut down your Estrogen value.

So, in my opinion (also based on serveral studies) there is no "senseful" PCT with an AI only. What you are maybe searching for is a second generation SERM (like Raloxifene or Toremifene). Less side effect but also less effect. Not really comparable with first generation SERM like Tamoxifene and Clomifene. Also a reason, why they are stil used in the bodybuilding cricle. These second generation SERM are better comparable with AI than with first generation SERM (I know, that sounds paradox). These 2nd gen SERM would be an alternative to an on-cycle support like an AI.

That protocol you have posted leads that this one is a PCT for a mild compound. Normally, (in a "real" AAS cycle) Tamoxifene is used for a lenght of six weeks. In heavy cycles also stacked together with Clomifene (for four weeks). But you already dropped the dosage in the third week and you were taking 25mg/ed (!) Exmestane which nearly killed the whole Estrogen blood value. Not that clever in my opinion. How were your blood works?

A regular PCT should contain at least Tamoxifene. A bit less side effects than Clomifene (e.g. vision side effect). 20mg/ed over four weeks, in longer AAS cycles for six weeks. Dropping the dosage to 10mg/ed for the last two weeks (of four weeks) could be a possibility of a very mild cycle (SARM, PH-cycle "light"). But don't take the risk. Your main aim is to restore the HTPA to loose as low muscle mass as possible. You managed to abuse anabolic compounds now two weeks more or less with a cancer drug shouln't concern you.
If you don't mind more side effects than Tamoxifene has, you also can use Clomifene. Cycle length is here only four weeks, doesn't matter if SARM, PH or long AAS cycle. Main reason is the other pathway work. Despite on the "heavyness" of the cycle, the dosage range is between 50mg-200mg. Generally, you can use 100mg/ed (or in extreme cases 200mg/ed) as a front load for three days and then run with 100mg/ed for the next week and for the rest of the PCT 50mg/ed. In combination with Tamoxifene you will profit from a synergethic effect.

Long story short: AI are not made to restore the HTPA in comparison to SERM. The needed dosage for such an effectiveness will cause more harm than benefit. First generation SERM are still the substances which should be used. Estrogen is often underrated and the body won't forgive you for a very low Estrogen value. Do your research about that powerful hormone.

 

[Bolics]

Thank you for you reply.

25mg/ed Exemestan ist very, very potent and will kill nearly the whole Estrogen you have.

From my research and from the studies i have read Exemestane can only reduce Estrogen in men by roughly 65% at 25mg. With 50mg showing the same levels. This suggests that Exemestane can not actually fully suppress estrogen no matter the dose administered. The studies that show it utterly crushing estrogen levels are only when it is women taking the drug.

If this is true, it still does not address the other issues you mentioned of course such as HPTA restoration.

As for the usage of the A.I in my pct as mentioned. It is there to prevent estrogen rebound when Nolva is discontinued. I have previously found this to be an issue and this protocol solved it.

 

[sanmarino]

Yes, there are some studies which reported a decrease in Estrogen between 62% to 76% (here is one of them: can't post links. wow.).
I wouldn't be also so helpful if it would kill it for 90% or more. Estrogene has also anabolic effect - but not in that way like Testosterone.

If you are calculating with the smallest decrease of 62% it also depends on the cycle which you made. If you exaggerated whitch the substances and dosages then an addition would make sense. In text above I wrote with focus on the HTPA-restoration. I only made general suggestions because it really depends on the heavyness of the cyce. Someone, who take huge amount of dosages and don't have enough receptors to bind on will need an AI in the PCT (or already during the cycle) with a higher probability than someone, who runs a moderate dosage on a SARM or PH cycle.

On that case - the Estrogen effect - an AI can support to get out faster on the imbalance.

 

[Joedoubledose]

If I'm not correct please tell me but a suicide Aromatase would only increase testosterone and LH via the negative feedback loop while a serm will increase both LH and FSH

 

[BertBolic]

I do not understand why people keep saying this. Aromasin increases both LH and FSH.

A google scholar search of "exemestane lh fsh" shows this in the very first study.

 

[Bolics]

Estrogen decreases levels of LH and FSH. So lowering estrogen will always raise LH and FSH. So any A.I should do that. But for PCT purposes a reversable A.I will cause rebound estrogen increase and test decrease as a result. A suicide inhibitor would stop those rebound actions.

I've been reading some medical text books.

Think i undertand why SERMS are superior in PCT. But if anyone knows better then please do add / correct information.

SERMS prevent estrogen from binding to specific sites in the body. The one we are most interested in is of course breast tissue. They also raise levels of LH and FSH themselves. They allow the body to have estrogen to perform it's tasks that are beneficial to us, such as bone maintenance. And through LH and FSH release raise testosterone and restore testical function. The body will naturally lower estrogen levels because test is so low to begin with. While test will slowly rise due to increased production. When you stop taking it hormones are balanced (If you did it right) Estrogen will be allowed to bind again to the tissues that were blocked, but as the estrogen levels are normalised it wont make a difference.

The difference in a suicidal A.I would be that it raises LH and FSH but not as effectively. It lowers estrogen which means the body can't use it for good or bad. When you stop estrogen levels will slowly rise as more aromatase is made and eventually normalise.

A reversable A.I would do the same as above only when stopping use it will free up all of the aromatase in your body at once and it will bind to a lot of testosterone causing a big elevation in estrogen quickly. Test will dip due to LH and FSH production being slowed and the estrogen will get a chance to exert some nasty effects.

One thing that A.I's have an advantage over is prolactin control. High estrogen leveles lead to high prolactin levels. Prolactin lowers LH and FSH when it is too high. It also causes lactation and a form of prolactin gyno. So lowering high estrogen should lower prolactin issues caused by the high estrogen. SERMS presumably would not have that effect as estrogen is still going to be high in the system.

None of this was collected from bro sources. It was from medical journals, doctors reference material and students study material.