PCT Dosing
- Thread starter MoGainz20
- Start date
AnalogMan
New member
Your PCT is pretty spot on bro.
First Cycle ??
Clomid: 50/50/50/50
Nolva: 20/20/10/10/10/10
Clomid:75/50/50/50
Nolva: 40/20/20/20
If your just using Test E ,your good. If you have "Killed" your HPTA (Nandrolone) you could add 2 weeks of 20mg Per/Day Nolva.
Just my thought . Good luck brother............AnalogMan
First Cycle ??
Clomid: 50/50/50/50
Nolva: 20/20/10/10/10/10
Clomid:75/50/50/50
Nolva: 40/20/20/20
If your just using Test E ,your good. If you have "Killed" your HPTA (Nandrolone) you could add 2 weeks of 20mg Per/Day Nolva.
Just my thought . Good luck brother............AnalogMan
booneman77
Legend
Your probably just as good off dosing one or the other so pick 1 SERM. Taper either though (like you have the nolva). I would def have an ai as you're running an aromatizing compound, as well as the fact that an ai will help to get your natural test back up.
Some other things you might consider adding that can make pct a lot more "comfortable":
- natural anabolic: ABE/Magnitropin/Xgels/etc - these will help you to solidify the gains you made while your hormone levels are messed up and recovering. They also can just help mentally as you prob wont feel great and these can help your strength and energy stay up, keeping you "into it"
- cortisol control: reduce xt - when hormones are all over the place you can see a big cort spike which is obviously counterproductive to the gains
- natural test booster: alphamax/bulbine/fenugreek/daa/etc - these can help, but usually not a ton. Mostly small impact but theyre often pretty cheap too so it may not hurt.
as an absolute minimum though - SERM+AI
Some other things you might consider adding that can make pct a lot more "comfortable":
- natural anabolic: ABE/Magnitropin/Xgels/etc - these will help you to solidify the gains you made while your hormone levels are messed up and recovering. They also can just help mentally as you prob wont feel great and these can help your strength and energy stay up, keeping you "into it"
- cortisol control: reduce xt - when hormones are all over the place you can see a big cort spike which is obviously counterproductive to the gains
- natural test booster: alphamax/bulbine/fenugreek/daa/etc - these can help, but usually not a ton. Mostly small impact but theyre often pretty cheap too so it may not hurt.
as an absolute minimum though - SERM+AI
booneman77
Legend
yep. thats your serm+ai. you technically dont need to taper the aromasin but it seems to help prevent any potential issues.
AnalogMan
New member
LH and FSH are both required for this equation. LH is produced by the pituitary and stimulates the Leydig cells to produce testosterone.
You should have both, they work in synergy to be at healthy levels. Nolvadex is a dominant in LH promotion and Clomid is dominant in promoting FSH.
Clomid has multiple effects. It's an "anti-estrogen, so it obviously decreases the estrogenic effects in your body by stimulating the Hypothalamus back to life.
Nolvadex is the complete opposite in that area, it boosts the actual frequency of LH and has no effect on its amplitude.
Can you recover with just Nolvadex,or Clomid ? Well, anything is possible. But both combined give's you a "much" better chance of recovery . It's a few dollars more. But your health is worth it.
Just my thought ............AnalogMan
You should have both, they work in synergy to be at healthy levels. Nolvadex is a dominant in LH promotion and Clomid is dominant in promoting FSH.
Clomid has multiple effects. It's an "anti-estrogen, so it obviously decreases the estrogenic effects in your body by stimulating the Hypothalamus back to life.
Nolvadex is the complete opposite in that area, it boosts the actual frequency of LH and has no effect on its amplitude.
Can you recover with just Nolvadex,or Clomid ? Well, anything is possible. But both combined give's you a "much" better chance of recovery . It's a few dollars more. But your health is worth it.
Just my thought ............AnalogMan
booneman77
Legend
I mostly agree here as well but think it also depends on the cycle. Serms also have some negative impact on other health markers and thus it's a weight of cost:benefit in terms of how much additional pressure you want to put on your system (liver, kidney, etc) vs how fast your recovery can be.
Not saying it's wrong but after a very hepatotoxic cycle (for example) I might lean to one vs two simply based on promoting less liver strain.
StanleyG
Active member
Your proposed pct is perfect man. Dont mess with it and incorporate an ai, even stane. Guys like Scally have done literally THOUSANDS of case studies and determined that the clomid/nolva combo is the most effective pct there is, period.Think about it your androgen levels are gonna be getting very low when you start your pct, if your androgen levels are low your e2 levels will follow, why use an ai to lower e2 even further. The goal of pct is to stimulate LH and FSH hormone production. Serms do this better than ANY ai.
Use your proposed pct and you will not be sorry.
Use your proposed pct and you will not be sorry.
StanleyG
Active member
awesome post...... your spot on. Clomid has estrogen agonist and antagonist properties, nolva primarily antagonist properties. The combo is by far superior. Again, great post.
booneman77
Legend
Curious why not an ai? I realize lowering e too much is not beneficial for performance, however would it not stimulate your body to attempt to produce more test (to aromatize) in order to maintain the balance? This is what I've heard so please correct this if there is another explanation.
StanleyG
Active member
Great question and one many probably think due to the recent trend of trying an ai in pct.
AI's lower e2 so low the body thinks oh my e2 is so low i need to produce more test to up e2. You do not want to lower e2 that much in your pct. Your e2 will already be low as it is as the androgens have already left your body. The estrogen agonist activity of serms is a beneficial part of restoring hpta function. Using an ai you do not get this benefit. The use of stane in pct has been pushed quite a bit but if you look at it is not a beneficial addition to your pct.
I have considered this extensively, researched it and you just cant argue with the literally thousands of case studies & published studies scally and guay have brought to the table. It really turns out what is considered the old school pct, clomid/nolva, is your most effective option.
As you said and know , e2 isnt all bad, you do not want to crush it ever, even in pct, and you will using an ai. Dont negate the benefits (e2 agonist activity) a serm brings to the table by negating it using an ai. Thats all.
booneman77
Legend
So what I'm gathering here is that you're utilizing the serms to counter the estrogen that will be present during the restoration of htpa as this should not be present in any excessive amounts which is logical and reasonable; however, if that is the case, then how would one encounter "rebound" issues? It seems to me that something that does not aromatize on cycle, and therefore would create a low e environment from day 1 of pct, should not be able to "rebound" to excessive levels since, as htpa function is restored, the t:e levels should rise in unison to normal levels, but not further?
Also, as it takes some time to come down from the higher levels that would be present when using an aromatizing compound, would it not make sense to at least taper the ai down within the first week or so of pct, while the serms begin working but before natural e levels are achieved?
StanleyG
Active member
You have to consider what the serms are doing here. They , especially clomid, have estrogen agonist and antagonist properties. You frontload the serms week 1 and they start working almost immediately and high blood levels are achieved quickly. This rebound issue has been so overblown. In fact with stane used on cycle there would be no rebound. With adex (or any ai) you run it up to pct and the stop it but serms are immediately taken at a frontloading dose. Your protecting yourself from any high e effects (if any) using the serms but also you are getting/restoring your t/e production and androgen/estrogen ratio. Dont mess with the process by introducing an ai which will suppress e2, thats not what you want. You want to achieve homeostasis as quickly as you can.
Now dont get it wrong, serms are not gonna just get you to normal levels, they are going to get you to well above normal levels. It takes about 6-8 weeks post pct before you can get an accurate blood work that shows your true recovery. Any sooner than that the serms are still effecting your lh and fsh and t levels believe it or not.
I hope I answered your ?, love the conversation man!
booneman77
Legend
You definitely answered any question I had related to the ai's use, I'm really just playing devil's advocate here...If everything you say is true, then why is it that people do experience rebound estrogen issues though? This is the one thing that doesn't seem to add up for me as, like you said, the body wants to achieve homeostasis. It doesn't seem logical then that e being out of control high would even be possible unless test was so high (thinking like 2000+) that it would match. I've seen some results and even the best protocols usually tap out test around 1200 which should not produce gyno inducing e levels?
StanleyG
Active member
Have you ever seen blood work that shows rebound? I havent. The thing is this. Hormonal fluctuations are normal. Just like when you start a cycle. Many early in there cycle (week 2-3) say oh my nips are sensitive and they start to panic, when in reality it is just due to the hormonal fluctuations and it stabilizes, the sensitivity goes away and all is well. Same thing.
booneman77
Legend
But then how would you explain the cases where someone legitimately develops gyno post cycle? Or even post pct (I've heard of weeks-months post pct)?
StanleyG
Active member
It is virtually impossible taking serms to develop gyno while taking them.
Those that develop gyno post pct are most likely experiencing the results of a failed pct and have an out of whack androgen/estrogen ratio. This comes from improper pct protocols (ie an ai and a serm or a single serm pct or worse yet a supplement only pct or bunk serms). Also I am a firm believer in when you use a 19nor (deca,npp,tren) a 4 week pct may be insufficient. I feel that it is prudent to extend pct length to 6 weeks. Even if you do the last 2 of those 6 weeks with a single serm only as opposed to clomid & nolva, I think its a prudent idea.
Those that develop gyno post pct are most likely experiencing the results of a failed pct and have an out of whack androgen/estrogen ratio. This comes from improper pct protocols (ie an ai and a serm or a single serm pct or worse yet a supplement only pct or bunk serms). Also I am a firm believer in when you use a 19nor (deca,npp,tren) a 4 week pct may be insufficient. I feel that it is prudent to extend pct length to 6 weeks. Even if you do the last 2 of those 6 weeks with a single serm only as opposed to clomid & nolva, I think its a prudent idea.
booneman77
Legend
Perfect. And I totally agree on the 19nor as tren was the nastiest pct I've ever had. Felt awful for almost 8 weeks post cycle.
Interestingly enough, trest was the easiest pct and is supposed cause the most suppression.
booneman77
Legend
What are your thoughts on running an OTC ai for some measure of control or even the cort control like say arimistane or even formestane? Still too much?
StanleyG
Active member
It would not be right of me to comment as I do not know much about said products. I am familiar with formastane but in its pharma form from europe as an injectable. It has since been removed from the European pharmaceutical market due to ineffectiveness when measured against more easily administered oral counterparts such as anastrozole (adex) and exemestane (aromasin) and letrozole (femara).
booneman77
Legend
Fair enough. Appreciate the conversation. Definitely different than what has been preached by the masses for some time.
TacTownbeast
Member
What about just ralox during pct? I understand it is both an agonist and antagonist? Or would you suggest ralox and clomid? I Will also be using stane during pct as I encountered issues with tr3st, which I dropped from my cycle a week ago. However the damage has been done from the elevated estrogen now it's about getting back in control
StanleyG
Active member
If you are going to use ralox in pct you definitely IMO need to add in clomid. Here is the thing, while ralox is the best serm for blocking the e receptor in breast tissue it is also the least effective serm for inducing the production of LH/FSH and thus test production. Now thats not to say it doesnt do it, but it is just not as effective as clomid, nolva or torem.
Also IMO you still dont need stane in your pct, your e2 will get itself back under control without an ai but anyway/either way Id def run the clomid with the ralox.
Best of Luck to you man!
TacTownbeast
Member
Ok, thank you!!!!
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
Great thread, thanks StanleyG.
thatguy1234
Banned
noob question here- i was under the impression that the PCT:cycle ratio should be 1:1. in this case it looks like you're saying 1:3...
