PA vs ARA

[ddfox]

I noticed some slight strength gains and muscle fullness from lecithin but one of the biggest benefits that I got was some great focus and tunnel vision. I assume this was from the Phosphatidylcholine.

 

[rowz4broz]

ester sides are associated with PA correct ? not ArA if thats the case i would rather save up for the ArA

currently coming off an osta cycle which aggravated some gyno

 

[kissdadookie]

ester sides are associated with PA correct ? not ArA if thats the case i would rather save up for the ArA

currently coming off an osta cycle which aggravated some gyno

No on the estro inquiry.

 

[rowz4broz]

No on the estro inquiry.

Are you sure? I'm not well versed in such topics, however a quick search found that soy lecithin was strongly estrogenic in vitro. Add the fact that most are dosing much more than what is used as an emulsifier.

????? im a bit confused sorry

 

[kissdadookie]

????? im a bit confused sorry

Soy lecithin as used in food products are quite a bit different from quality soy lecithin granule supplements. The ones used in food products are essentially refined soybean oil with some phospholipid content. The soy lecithin you buy as a supplement, the better quality ones, have been processed to contain around 97% phosphatides and de-oiled.

 

[rowz4broz]

so a product like Optima Health Letchin Granules will not cause any estro sides? but foods that contain soy letchin can have an effect on gyno? for whatever reason this is very confusing to me. what is the difference between the two that makes one effect estro and the other doesn't

 

[kissdadookie]

so a product like Optima Health Letchin Granules will not cause any estro sides? but foods that contain soy letchin can have an effect on gyno? for whatever reason this is very confusing to me. what is the difference between the two that makes one effect estro and the other doesn't

It's what they may possibly contain. The phytoestrogens are likely in the oil. De-oiled lecithin which contains 97% phosphatides essentially don't contain soy oil and have been processed and refined down to the point where it's basically entirely phospholipids you are getting.

Soy lecithin is a general term. There's varying degrees of how much actual lecithin is in there in the way we intend for it to be (phospholipid content).

 

[kdubson14]

I have seen no estrogen-like effects from SL at all. I've been taking 5tbsp pre-workout for a few months now.

 

[BCseacow83]

Very sensitve to estro sides myself and no SL does NOT aggravate.

 

[bobbybondmo]

Dropping PA. My diet is spot on. All this has done after 9 days (at 4tbls) is bloat the hell out of me. It seems to draw water to the skin more so that the muscle. No what I am into.

 

[kissdadookie]

Dropping PA. My diet is spot on. All this has done after 9 days (at 4tbls) is bloat the hell out of me. It seems to draw water to the skin more so that the muscle. No what I am into.

It's something else that may be causing it due to you using such large doses. Not ruling out that the lecithin is causing this (likely if you use the PA concentrated lecithin products, products with the full dose of Mediator, this would likely not be a problem anymore for you, but those products are pricey), but most likely not due to it increasing your estrogen levels.

 

[bobbybondmo]

It's something else that may be causing it due to you using such large doses. Not ruling out that the lecithin is causing this (likely if you use the PA concentrated lecithin products, products with the full dose of Mediator, this would likely not be a problem anymore for you, but those products are pricey), but most likely not due to it increasing your estrogen levels.

I am using Fern PA. Do you think this may be the problem? Thanks...

 

[kissdadookie]

I am using Fern PA. Do you think this may be the problem? Thanks...

Stop calling it PA. It's lecithin. Your taking lecithin for the PA content. Also, yes, possibly, if that's the only change in what you have been taking. It's possible that other things in the lecithin is bloating you.

 

[rowz4broz]

Soy lecithin as used in food products are quite a bit different from quality soy lecithin granule supplements. The ones used in food products are essentially refined soybean oil with some phospholipid content. The soy lecithin you buy as a supplement, the better quality ones, have been processed to contain around 97% phosphatides and de-oiled.

You seem very knowledgeable about Letchin can u give me your thought on this label and dosage ? Ive highlighted what i believe to be important.

Also in terms of estro is this what this is addressing? or something else

appreciate your help brother

 

[kissdadookie]

You seem very knowledgeable about Letchin can u give me your thought on this label and dosage ? Ive highlighted what i believe to be important.


View attachment 112494

Also in terms of estro is this what this is addressing? or something else

View attachment 112495


appreciate your help brother

The suggested serving should get you an efficacious PA dose. You can go higher if you wish, no real notable adverse sides would occur (probably).
The second part about GMO, doesn't matter with de-oiled lecithins like these, as the processing makes GMO and non-gmo essentially indistinguishable from each other.

 

[bobbybondmo]

Stop calling it PA. It's lecithin. Your taking lecithin for the PA content. Also, yes, possibly, if that's the only change in what you have been taking. It's possible that other things in the lecithin is bloating you.

Its the only change. Total esto bloating is all this is. Lecithin is not for me. In the garbage it goes and out comes an AI. And I am certain I am not the only one experiencing this. Thanks for your input

 

[Jiigzz]

Its the only change. Total esto bloating is all this is. Lecithin is not for me. In the garbage it goes and out comes an AI. And I am certain I am not the only one experiencing this. Thanks for your input

You sure its estrogen bloating?

 

[bobbybondmo]

You sure its estrogen bloating?

Well no I am not. But I don't like what I am seeing. Damm...

 

[kissdadookie]

Well no I am not. But I don't like what I am seeing. Damm...

Then why you blaming it on estrogen? LoL.

I very specifically said that it could be the lecithin but not due to phytoestrogens which is what you were implying.

Derp.

 

[anabolix]

Well no I am not. But I don't like what I am seeing. Damm...

I wouldn't be too sure about estrogen being the cause. An ai may help with your bloat, but dont extrapolate that to suggest that SL caused high estrogen levels and therefore bloat. From everything ive seen, SL should not have any phyto estrogenic effects.

 

[kissdadookie]

I wouldn't be too sure about estrogen being the cause. An ai may help with your bloat, but dont extrapolate that to suggest that SL caused high estrogen levels and therefore bloat. From everything ive seen, SL should not have any phyto estrogenic effects.

He has no bloods, just assuming things, likely because he read it on the Internet. Smh.

 

[bobbybondmo]

Then why you blaming it on estrogen? LoL.

I very specifically said that it could be the lecithin but not due to phytoestrogens which is what you were implying.

Derp.

Sorry bud...i am not well versed. I just feel and seem to have symptoms similar to higher e. Either way with no change other adding lecithin....i am getting bloated big time.

 

[bobbybondmo]

He has no bloods, just assuming things, likely because he read it on the Internet. Smh.

No i dont have bloods and it was an assumption.

 

[avega17]

Its the only change. Total esto bloating is all this is. Lecithin is not for me. In the garbage it goes and out comes an AI. And I am certain I am not the only one experiencing this. Thanks for your input

Just take out the SL first or drop the dosing. I'm sure the bloating will recede as it did for me. If it doesn't then get bloods before you make that decision.

 

[bobbybondmo]

Just take out the SL first or drop the dosing. I'm sure the bloating will recede as it did for me. If it doesn't then get bloods before you make that decision.

How would take out the SL? I am using fearn lecithin granules.

 

[kbayne]

How would take out the SL? I am using fearn lecithin granules.

Fearn = soy lecithin

 

[avega17]

How would take out the SL? I am using fearn lecithin granules.

I mean just stop taking it or take less

 

[Contaygious]

It definitely gives a fuller more bloated look, but I still look bigger. If it is helping my strength then I'll keep taking 3 tbs pwo for now-hard to tell though. It mos def has an acute affect that blows you up by the time your workout is done. Probably not for people trying to get a lean and dry look

 

[Jiigzz]

Sorry bud...i am not well versed. I just feel and seem to have symptoms similar to higher e. Either way with no change other adding lecithin....i am getting bloated big time.

Meh, no big deal really. I know nothing about SL but maybe cut back the dosage?

 

[greekbrah91]

It definitely gives a fuller more bloated look, but I still look bigger. If it is helping my strength then I'll keep taking 3 tbs pwo for now-hard to tell though. It mos def has an acute affect that blows you up by the time your workout is done. Probably not for people trying to get a lean and dry look

PA causes bloat? I can tolerate water retention on a cut, otherwise it's way too discouraging. Might just stick with ArA + ABE + LCLT.

 

[kissdadookie]

PA causes bloat? I can tolerate water retention on a cut, otherwise it's way too discouraging. Might just stick with ArA + ABE + LCLT.

PA, I highly doubt it. Other things in the soy lecithin people are using... possibly.

Remember, most people have been using soy lecithin granules as their PA source. There's also products which contain Mediator which is lecithin concentrated for PA content (40-60 percent PA).

If the Mediator stuff wasn't so expensive, I would use that instead of soy lecithin, easier dosing mainly and no soy lecithin aftertaste in my mouth that bothers the heck out of me while I'm lifting. But that stuff is pretty darn expensive so using the soy lecithin granule is better value.

 

[BCseacow83]

PA, I highly doubt it. Other things in the soy lecithin people are using... possibly.

Remember, most people have been using soy lecithin granules as their PA source. There's also products which contain Mediator which is lecithin concentrated for PA content (40-60 percent PA).

If the Mediator stuff wasn't so expensive, I would use that instead of soy lecithin, easier dosing mainly and no soy lecithin aftertaste in my mouth that bothers the heck out of me while I'm lifting. But that stuff is pretty darn expensive so using the soy lecithin granule is better value.

If the taste bothers you you can try what I do: Simply swallow 1/2 tbsp at a time like it's 100's of mini pills. Works like a charm as they float easily.

Is it just me or does this whole, "OMG SL bloats me got to drop it fast!" remind anyone of 100's of creatine threads from about 10 years ago? Same thing take less and stop worrying about loosing 5-10% definition unless you are some underwear model or do photo shoots all the time. I assure you no one but you notices and if they did they would not care.

 

[kissdadookie]

If the taste bothers you you can try what I do: Simply swallow 1/2 tbsp at a time like it's 100's of mini pills. Works like a charm as they float easily.

Is it just me or does this whole, "OMG SL bloats me got to drop it fast!" remind anyone of 100's of creatine threads from about 10 years ago? Same thing take less and stop worrying about loosing 5-10% definition unless you are some underwear model or do photo shoots all the time. I assure you no one but you notices and if they did they would not care.

Could be. One of the side effects people typically get when they appear to notice sides (to anything, not just SL) is bloating. Who knows Kind of like the I have gyno epidemics. Or I squeezed my nips so much that I drew blood thus I must be lactating syndrome.

 

[BCseacow83]

I understand that no one wants to look less than there best but unless you are going to be stepping on stage or the beach tomorrow who gives a flying ****! I am about 20 years into this game and with each year I sweat what I consider to be the little things less and less and the happier I become and the more I enjoy the whole endeavor. Heck I remember being at disney world when I was 16 almost yelling at my parents that I HAD to eat as it had been over two hours since I consumed protein and was going into a catabolic state! LOL to this day if I get moody my family jokingly says, "Watch out he's going into a catabolic state lol."

 

[kissdadookie]

I understand that no one wants to look less than there best but unless you are going to be stepping on stage or the beach tomorrow who gives a flying ****! I am about 20 years into this game and with each year I sweat what I consider to be the little things less and less and the happier I become and the more I enjoy the whole endeavor. Heck I remember being at disney world when I was 16 almost yelling at my parents that I HAD to eat as it had been over two hours since I consumed protein and was going into a catabolic state! LOL to this day if I get moody my family jokingly says, "Watch out he's going into a catabolic state lol."

Well, to be fair, I get hungry after 3 hours... so... kind of a necessity

 

[anabolix]

If the taste bothers you you can try what I do: Simply swallow 1/2 tbsp at a time like it's 100's of mini pills. Works like a charm as they float easily.

Im not sure why more people don't drink the stuff. Put it in some kind of milk, let sit a few minutes, then bam..one swallow and its down. Tastes great too!

 

[ddfox]

I understand that no one wants to look less than there best but unless you are going to be stepping on stage or the beach tomorrow who gives a flying ****! I am about 20 years into this game and with each year I sweat what I consider to be the little things less and less and the happier I become and the more I enjoy the whole endeavor. Heck I remember being at disney world when I was 16 almost yelling at my parents that I HAD to eat as it had been over two hours since I consumed protein and was going into a catabolic state! LOL to this day if I get moody my family jokingly says, "Watch out he's going into a catabolic state lol."

Ha. Sounds like me. My wife would actually warn/say something to other couples if we were all going out on the lake or beach or whatever. She'd say "sorry, David has to bring his snacks along cuz he eats like every 2 hours"

 

[bobbybondmo]

If the taste bothers you you can try what I do: Simply swallow 1/2 tbsp at a time like it's 100's of mini pills. Works like a charm as they float easily.

Is it just me or does this whole, "OMG SL bloats me got to drop it fast!" remind anyone of 100's of creatine threads from about 10 years ago? Same thing take less and stop worrying about loosing 5-10% definition unless you are some underwear model or do photo shoots all the time. I assure you no one but you notices and if they did they would not care.

Fern PA at 4tbls bloated me 10 times more than creatine lol...

 

[avega17]

I understand that SL contains phospholipids and are not metabolized similar to typical dietary fats, but should we account for these calories (albeit minimal but can get up there with daily dosing at multiple tbsps)?

 

[kissdadookie]

I understand that SL contains phospholipids and are not metabolized similar to typical dietary fats, but should we account for these calories (albeit minimal but can get up there with daily dosing at multiple tbsps)?

I don't really know why people are playing the "let's see who can eat as much as possible!" game with SL. 2 tablespoons is going to be plenty for virtually everyone.

I don't think that 2 tablespoons daily will mess you up especially if it's a constant in your diet. If it does, cut a tiny bit out of your intake from elsewhere in your diet but seriously, if it screws up your diet, you probably suck anyway

 

[avega17]

I don't really know why people are playing the "let's see who can eat as much as possible!" game with SL. 2 tablespoons is going to be plenty for virtually everyone.

I don't think that 2 tablespoons daily will mess you up especially if it's a constant in your diet. If it does, cut a tiny bit out of your intake from elsewhere in your diet but seriously, if it screws up your diet, you probably suck anyway

I've only gone as high as 4 tbsp pwo and 2 on off days. I'm just curious because I like to be on point with my intake. Now that I think about it, Pa specifically break down into DAG and phosphatidate, so the acyl groups on DAG will yield energy.

 

[kissdadookie]

I've only gone as high as 4 tbsp pwo and 2 on off days. I'm just curious because I like to be on point with my intake. Now that I think about it, Pa specifically break down into DAG and phosphatidate, so the acyl groups on DAG will yield energy.

Hope you realize we are talking about realistically 1-2 grams of PA here. I think your micromanaging in ways which are unnecessary.

 

[BCseacow83]

Fern PA at 4tbls bloated me 10 times more than creatine lol...

Well then I would try two tbsp. Look I am not trying to convince you to do anything or take anything. You want to be neurotic about water weight that most likely only you notice go ahead.

 

[anabolix]

I don't really know why people are playing the "let's see who can eat as much as possible!"

Probably because earlier in the thread guys were saying 1g is noticeable, 2 better and 3 grams was where the best gains were. This is why i experimented with higher doses anyway.

 

[avega17]

Hope you realize we are talking about realistically 1-2 grams of PA here. I think your micromanaging in ways which are unnecessary.

PA isn't the only phospholipid in SL; that's why the box adds up to ~100 calories per 2 tbsp.

 

[avega17]

Probably because earlier in the thread guys were saying 1g is noticeable, 2 better and 3 grams was where the best gains were. This is why i experimented with higher doses anyway.

same

 

[bb333]

Today I try 30 gr of Optima (3900PA).

 

[kissdadookie]

PA isn't the only phospholipid in SL; that's why the box adds up to ~100 calories per 2 tbsp.

And that is going to affect your diet in what kind of significant way?

 

[Feiwong]

Today I try 30 gr of Optima (3900PA).

Too much can you burp and bloat a lot a lot during wo. Let me know how it goes.

 

[BCseacow83]

For me the focus increase I achieve with only 1 tbsp is enough for me to keep taking this for that alone.

For those that are bloating I would say try one tbsp for a week or two. Then creep up to two. Really the amount of PA in 2 tbsp is plenty to elicit results as was demonstrated by the studies. I personally would try this before I chuck the stuff in the trash as you already paid for it.