MEADOWS periworkout Supplement/nutrition protocol

A Google search will bring up quite a few links.

It's important to make sure the rest of your diet as well as training are on point, as it's not some type of magic protocol that fixes everything. It's just a piece of the puzzle, that can give an advantage when everything else is dialed in. Another thing to note is that you'll want to be training HARD to truly benefit from the intra supplementation, and it may not be ideal for all types of training and/or goals.
 
breezy11 said:
A Google search will bring up quite a few links.

It's important to make sure the rest of your diet as well as training are on point, as it's not some type of magic protocol that fixes everything. It's just a piece of the puzzle, that can give an advantage when everything else is dialed in. Another thing to note is that you'll want to be training HARD to truly benefit from the intra supplementation, and it may not be ideal for all types of training and/or goals.
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Yup, it's only a magic elixir if you train balls to the walls as in the Mountain Dog Training style.

High rep piston banded leg presses? Yes please!!!

I've also been doing Amit Sapir's suggestion of a 20 rep bb squat finisher for leg days :D
 
Looking forward to Prime releasing an all in one intra that he formulated. Should be a damn good product.
 
im just curious with all the insulin spiking stuff would that be bad in the long run ie diabetes or anything? iv often wondered this with whey protein and bcaas as well
 
TheIronAsylum said:
im just curious with all the insulin spiking stuff would that be bad in the long run ie diabetes or anything? iv often wondered this with whey protein and bcaas as well
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Better avoid food if you want to avoid spiking insulin ;)
 
[video=youtube;4iRSHKOnlPw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iRSHKOnlPw[/video]

[video=youtube;Z20MIg8X6zA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z20MIg8X6zA[/video]

[video=youtube;TYz5FA7spcs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYz5FA7spcs[/video]


#1 and #3 Especially.
 
koi1214 said:
I do the same 50% of my last set as well.Good luck with your glutes.
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Just a glute. Not both :P Pulled/strained/possibly slightly tore it over a month ago at this point going heavy on deadlifts. On the upside, it forced me to use sumo deads.
 
Big Papi said:
lol why would anyone advocate spiking insulin while working out?
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That's a serious question?

Insulin is highly anabolic. You're trying to maximize anabolism, prevent catabolism, and ultimately provide a better protein balance. Also aids in recovery.

Why wouldn't you want to spike insulin and try to sustain it? You're goal during your session is ultimately to make gains yes?
 
kissdadookie said:
That's a serious question?

Insulin is highly anabolic. You're trying to maximize anabolism, prevent catabolism, and ultimately provide a better protein balance. Also aids in recovery.

Why wouldn't you want to spike insulin and try to sustain it? You're goal during your session is ultimately to make gains yes?
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lol no, just no. You know nothing, stop posting nonsense.
 
Big Papi said:
lol no, just no. You know nothing, stop posting nonsense.
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Where exactly was he wrong? Insulin attenuates protein breakdown.. This is well known and understood and is one of the reasons why slin is commonly used in bodybuilding.

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Also, exercise tends to blunt insulin secretion
 
Jiigzz said:
Where exactly was he wrong? Insulin attenuates protein breakdown.. This is well known and understood and is one of the reasons why slin is commonly used in bodybuilding.

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Also, exercise tends to blunt insulin secretion
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another pubmed ninja without a basic understanding of human physiology. if anything, insulin is a factor post-workout. you don't want it elevated while training.
 
Big Papi said:
another pubmed ninja without a basic understanding of human physiology. if anything, insulin is a factor post-workout. you don't want it elevated while training.
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Enlighten me as to why insulin and working out in counter-productive? If you think its because it blocks lipolysis, then you are focusing on such a small portion of the equation WRT weight loss
 
kissdadookie said:
Yup, it's only a magic elixir if you train balls to the walls as in the Mountain Dog Training style.

High rep piston banded leg presses? Yes please!!!

I've also been doing Amit Sapir's suggestion of a 20 rep bb squat finisher for leg days :D
Click to expand...

and 3grams of gear makes any protocol amazing...
 
kissdadookie said:
That's a serious question?

Insulin is highly anabolic. You're trying to maximize anabolism, prevent catabolism, and ultimately provide a better protein balance. Also aids in recovery.

Why wouldn't you want to spike insulin and try to sustain it? You're goal during your session is ultimately to make gains yes?
Click to expand...

yea but secreting in constantly is not the best approach….it also promotes storage, promotes new adipocytes and inflammation.
 
The Solution said:
Anyone who uses BCAA's spikes inuslin...
Anyone who adds Carbs will spike insulin to a greater degree

hell you spike insulin when you drink a protein shake lol.
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to a degree with protein and BCAAs but its the constant combination of carbohydrates and excessive fat that is the issue…
 
sugar water isn't necessary to maximize insulin production to the threshold needed to maximize muscle protein synthesis. quick repletion of glycogen isn't relevant to bodybuilding.
 
The Solution said:
Anyone who uses BCAA's spikes inuslin...
Anyone who adds Carbs will spike insulin to a greater degree

hell you spike insulin when you drink a protein shake lol.
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just over basal, which is all that is needed to maximize mps. more is not always better.
 
USPlabsRep said:
to a degree with protein and BCAAs but its the constant combination of carbohydrates and excessive fat that is the issue…
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Exactly, so it could be a magnitude or multiple different factors when someone states "raising insulin" and to what degree.

PS - Stop giving out all the secrets with the supp protocol LOL
 
What happened to the theory that insulin blunts the release of GH? Would that not be another good reason to not spike it 'during' a workout?
 
jdg76 said:
What happened to the theory that insulin blunts the release of GH? Would that not be another good reason to not spike it 'during' a workout?
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diabetogenic hormones (ie growth hormone, cortisol, epinephrine) are all increased peri-exercise. this is all a normal physiologic response to exercise. glucose uptake in skeletal muscle is greatly increased while training and this occurs through an insulin independent mechanism.
 
Big Papi said:
sugar water isn't necessary to maximize insulin production to the threshold needed to maximize muscle protein synthesis. quick repletion of glycogen isn't relevant to bodybuilding.
Click to expand...

You use carbohydrates to attenuate breakdown, not synthesis. Thats where the CHO+PRO debate comes in.

Repletion of glycogen is important I bodybuilding.. ever seen someone flat on stage do well? They often deplete tlso they can supercompensate
 
USPlabsRep said:
yea but secreting in constantly is not the best approach….it also promotes storage, promotes new adipocytes and inflammation.
Click to expand...

They did a carbs study, hefty doses at that. It did not inhibit lipolysis or have any noted negative responses to it. It actually improved performance in the study it was used in (they administered the carbs every 10 minutes I think). Relatively recent study as well.

Going by that, I think the timing of when you are spiking your insulin does play a huge role and would appear that these peri-workout nutrition protocols has a "preferential" effect if you will for lack of a better term.

Also, yeah, 3 grams of gear, would make most anything work :P

Big Papi said:
diabetogenic hormones (ie growth hormone, cortisol, epinephrine) are all increased peri-exercise. this is all a normal physiologic response to exercise. glucose uptake in skeletal muscle is greatly increased while training and this occurs through an insulin independent mechanism.
Click to expand...

Glucose ='s carbs no? So going by that, it's inherently going to spike your insulin. So what is your issue with this again apart from you just not liking it from a personal POV?

Also, like Jiigzz pointed out, you're not aiming directly for growth here, what you are aiming for is a more positive protein balance.

Like an article from EFTS points out, there was a longer term study on NSAID and training. Acutely it appears to blunt growth but overall it appeared to assist in more growth. They suspect that it's due to the NSAID over time providing a better protein balance (less protein breakdown whilst your training provides the anabolic stimulus). What you net from protein synthesis minus protein breakdown is what counts.
 
kissdadookie said:
They did a carbs study, hefty doses at that. It did not inhibit lipolysis or have any noted negative responses to it. It actually improved performance in the study it was used in (they administered the carbs every 10 minutes I think). Relatively recent study as well.

s.
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Link?
 
USPlabsRep said:
Link?
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May take me awhile to find. I made a thread on it either here or on the other bb forum. I think it's here though. Brb.

Found it: Invalid Link Removed

Mind you, this really only applies to the peri-workout period, not trying to say that people should keep bumping insulin and keep it elevated all day.
 
Lots of keyboard science in here. The real world application of such a protocol has not been studied accurately, therefore one can only surmise the pros/cons of such a system.

I will be the first to say that IF you train hard, IF you have the guts to put your all into each workout then you should try it. I used to get stuck in this analysis by paralysis mindset and avoid things without 100% scientific backing, and I've got news for you....THERES A WORLD OUTSIDE OF PUBMED! Do you know how much ive grown since I started following people like John Meadows and Dante Trudel vs. the layne nortons of the world? More in one year than the previous 5 years of being a nerd put together! That isnt to discredit Layne by any means, he puts out a lot of information, but hes also one of the people propagating the "well its not science it doesnt matter", even though the science is never 100% in regards to anything due to variables involved.

If you're stuck thinking "well transient gh release" ..."theyre all on 3g of steroids".... "well insulin is BAD" then you probably dont train hard enough and should find a new hobby. Insulin is good if its managing appropriately, the entire system of peri workout nutrition ALSO involves dropping carbs at other times of the day in favor of protein/fat meals. It isnt for everyone, but if youre the kind of person who digs deep each and every workout you will only benefit from it.
 
kevinhy said:
If you're stuck thinking "well transient gh release" ..."theyre all on 3g of steroids".... "well insulin is BAD" then you probably dont train hard enough and should find a new hobby.
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Not being an ass. Well maybe I am ;) but just cause I'm still learning doesn't mean I don't train just as f'n hard if not harder than a lot of guys here.
 
jdg76 said:
Not being an ass. Well maybe I am ;) but just cause I'm still learning doesn't mean I don't train just as f'n hard if not harder than a lot of guys here.
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Its more so directed at the guys who obsess over these little details instead of taking in the big picture. People would rather micromanage their supplement stacks instead of going in and putting down some hard work in the gym and topping it off with a solid diet. Those are typically the people who say "well carbs are going to blunt the transient GH release of my resistance training (the effect of which is debatable) so i cant have that!"

If you have questions just understanding the concept thats all good and welcomed around here
 
kevinhy said:
Its more so directed at the guys who obsess over these little details instead of taking in the big picture. People would rather micromanage their supplement stacks instead of going in and putting down some hard work in the gym and topping it off with a solid diet. Those are typically the people who say "well carbs are going to blunt the transient GH release of my resistance training (the effect of which is debatable) so i cant have that!"

If you have questions just understanding the concept thats all good and welcomed around here
Click to expand...

I spaced out when insulin blunting GH release was mentioned. LoL.
 
kevinhy said:
Lots of keyboard science in here. The real world application of such a protocol has not been studied accurately, therefore one can only surmise the pros/cons of such a system.

I will be the first to say that IF you train hard, IF you have the guts to put your all into each workout then you should try it. I used to get stuck in this analysis by paralysis mindset and avoid things without 100% scientific backing, and I've got news for you....THERES A WORLD OUTSIDE OF PUBMED! Do you know how much ive grown since I started following people like John Meadows and Dante Trudel vs. the layne nortons of the world? More in one year than the previous 5 years of being a nerd put together! That isnt to discredit Layne by any means, he puts out a lot of information, but hes also one of the people propagating the "well its not science it doesnt matter", even though the science is never 100% in regards to anything due to variables involved.

If you're stuck thinking "well transient gh release" ..."theyre all on 3g of steroids".... "well insulin is BAD" then you probably dont train hard enough and should find a new hobby. Insulin is good if its managing appropriately, the entire system of peri workout nutrition ALSO involves dropping carbs at other times of the day in favor of protein/fat meals. It isnt for everyone, but if youre the kind of person who digs deep each and every workout you will only benefit from it.
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This to a T.

Hardly any of the nutrition/ training protocols I follow have ANY scientific validity, yet the IIFYM's people of the world seek to discredit it with the "timing isn't important but overall daily macros is". For each person, the importance of timing will differ yet it is still important to some degree. I started following Breezy's journey + snag's journey a long time ago and even if their protocols are not based on absolute science, the results speak volumes for why these things do in fact matter.

Previously I used science as an end all be all, but now I use it as a base for understanding how things work in the body then branch out and explore other protocols.
 
Jiigzz said:
Previously I used science as an end all be all, but now I use it as a base for understanding how things work in the body then branch out and explore other protocols.
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Thats the key! I'm not saying science is stupid (and I'm SURE you arent either), but bodybuilding just hasnt be studied enough to fully understand it. The studies that we have now have a lot of limitations behind them, and if anything they make me question common principles more so than they do towards explaining them. Science is amazing, technology is amazing, but there is a point in this lifestyle where you simply need to try certain things and see how it does for you.

I bet all of the science guys would read the outline for DC training, quote Brad Schoenfelds work on hypertrophy (which is amazing by the way), and then go "Well theres not enough volume...this cant work!" All the while those of us who said "you know, this sounds interesting I'll give it a shot" had amazing gains all the way through it. Sure, brad has done research into discovering an average amount of volume & intensity towards achieving maximum hypertrophy, but it isnt an end all be all as evidenced by some lower volume approaches like DC and Yates methodologies. The problem is some people may respond insane to these styles, yet they refuse to give them a shot because it flies in the face of the research.
 
kevinhy said:
Thats the key! I'm not saying science is stupid (and I'm SURE you arent either), but bodybuilding just hasnt be studied enough to fully understand it. The studies that we have now have a lot of limitations behind them, and if anything they make me question common principles more so than they do towards explaining them. Science is amazing, technology is amazing, but there is a point in this lifestyle where you simply need to try certain things and see how it does for you.

I bet all of the science guys would read the outline for DC training, quote Brad Schoenfelds work on hypertrophy (which is amazing by the way), and then go "Well theres not enough volume...this cant work!" All the while those of us who said "you know, this sounds interesting I'll give it a shot" had amazing gains all the way through it. Sure, brad has done research into discovering an average amount of volume & intensity towards achieving maximum hypertrophy, but it isnt an end all be all as evidenced by some lower volume approaches like DC and Yates methodologies. The problem is some people may respond insane to these styles, yet they refuse to give them a shot because it flies in the face of the research.
Click to expand...

Like this little nugget:

Invalid Link Removed
 
Jiigzz said:
This to a T.

Hardly any of the nutrition/ training protocols I follow have ANY scientific validity, yet the IIFYM's people of the world seek to discredit it with the "timing isn't important but overall daily macros is". .
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IIFYM has nothing to do with timing at all. While some people who follow IIFYM take things to the extreme via food sources and meal timing that is their problem and preference.
that would be meal frequency. (as far as timing goes)
if one does not want to cover their pre/post-workout nutrition (which is probably the most important for optimal performance) that is on them.

IIFYM deals more with meeting macronutrients via food choices. If you are not meeting protein/fat/fiber minimums and making logical choices in the 80-90% of the time range, then you should highly consider your own diet and dieting tactics.

thats just my stance at least.
 
kevinhy said:
Lots of keyboard science in here. The real world application of such a protocol has not been studied accurately, therefore one can only surmise the pros/cons of such a system.

I will be the first to say that IF you train hard, IF you have the guts to put your all into each workout then you should try it. I used to get stuck in this analysis by paralysis mindset and avoid things without 100% scientific backing, and I've got news for you....THERES A WORLD OUTSIDE OF PUBMED! Do you know how much ive grown since I started following people like John Meadows and Dante Trudel vs. the layne nortons of the world? More in one year than the previous 5 years of being a nerd put together! That isnt to discredit Layne by any means, he puts out a lot of information, but hes also one of the people propagating the "well its not science it doesnt matter", even though the science is never 100% in regards to anything due to variables involved.

If you're stuck thinking "well transient gh release" ..."theyre all on 3g of steroids".... "well insulin is BAD" then you probably dont train hard enough and should find a new hobby. Insulin is good if its managing appropriately, the entire system of peri workout nutrition ALSO involves dropping carbs at other times of the day in favor of protein/fat meals. It isnt for everyone, but if youre the kind of person who digs deep each and every workout you will only benefit from it.
Click to expand...

no, everything i have posted is rooted in basic exercise physiology. there is no merit to slamming down 100g of carbs while performing a standard bodybuilding style workouts (45-75 minutes of resistance training).

kissdadookie said:
They did a carbs study, hefty doses at that. It did not inhibit lipolysis or have any noted negative responses to it. It actually improved performance in the study it was used in (they administered the carbs every 10 minutes I think). Relatively recent study as well.

Going by that, I think the timing of when you are spiking your insulin does play a huge role and would appear that these peri-workout nutrition protocols has a "preferential" effect if you will for lack of a better term.

Also, yeah, 3 grams of gear, would make most anything work :P



Glucose ='s carbs no? So going by that, it's inherently going to spike your insulin. So what is your issue with this again apart from you just not liking it from a personal POV?

Also, like Jiigzz pointed out, you're not aiming directly for growth here, what you are aiming for is a more positive protein balance.

Like an article from EFTS points out, there was a longer term study on NSAID and training. Acutely it appears to blunt growth but overall it appeared to assist in more growth. They suspect that it's due to the NSAID over time providing a better protein balance (less protein breakdown whilst your training provides the anabolic stimulus). What you net from protein synthesis minus protein breakdown is what counts.
Click to expand...

you're not following:
exercising muscles do not require insulin to suck in carbohydrates. re: protein balance, protein oxidation can be attenuated with amino acid supplementation alone- there is no need for the carbs.
 
Jiigzz said:
You use carbohydrates to attenuate breakdown, not synthesis. Thats where the CHO+PRO debate comes in.

Repletion of glycogen is important I bodybuilding.. ever seen someone flat on stage do well? They often deplete tlso they can supercompensate
Click to expand...

amino acid supplementation can attenuate breakdown without carbs. and yea, i guess glycogen is a factor for 1 day-a-year in the minuscule subset of bodybuilders who take their physique on stage.
 
Big Papi said:
you're not following:
exercising muscles do not require insulin to suck in carbohydrates. re: protein balance, protein oxidation can be attenuated with amino acid supplementation alone- there is no need for the carbs.
Click to expand...

True...during and post exercise for a period of time.
 
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