T-Bone
Banned
Eat more food and lift progressively heavier weight.
What else is there? Minimal Suppressives
- Thread starter jarod86
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Eat more food and lift progressively heavier weight.
jarod86
Member
Came across as snide.
Were are talking minimal suppression as opposed to full blown PH's and AAS
Grayson
Well-known member
The concept of "minimal suppression" is absurd. Either get on something effective, or don't.
There are plenty of natty options that, while they won't illicit the same pronounced effects (i.e. anabeta/epicatechin + ara to name one) can still be effective.
I was a case of wanting to try something "minimally suppressive" and went with iron legion xi-kt, and you know what that got me? NEGATIVE ZILCH. Out 135 bucks on the actual compound + pct (sns daa + reduce xt + erase).
I did my PCT, waited a few weeks after (even though xi-kt is "minimally suppressive") and jumped on ostarine/clen/formestane, and you know what? I'm killing it in the gym. Every session is amazing and I'm seeing daily recomposition. The scale isn't moving, but the calipers are.
My point being is that if you're going to jump on something, don't do it half-assed and don't do something that's "minimally suppressive" because in the end of the day you're just going to be angry that you spent an assload of money on something that wasn't as effective as you would've hoped.
That's my 2 cents.
Edit:
Ostarine is suppressive and I knew that going in. I read the threads of guys' test levels dropping 60% after a few days.
To note: I am not dosing it every day. I am only on it thursday evening to saturday (well, technically sunday because of the 24hr half life).
I only take it in 10mg doses every 12 hours and it is my 4th week. I do need feel "suppressed." My sex drive has not been effected and I feel great. Does this mean I'm not suppressed? Of course not. But there are psychological as well as psychological ramifications of being suppressed and from what I can gauge is that even though ostarine is a powerful androgenic compound, it's side-effects are way less than that of a ph. I have not done aas, so I can't compare it to that, and from what I've read, once you've tried test you don't want anything else, so I'm not going to compare it to that.
There are plenty of natty options that, while they won't illicit the same pronounced effects (i.e. anabeta/epicatechin + ara to name one) can still be effective.
I was a case of wanting to try something "minimally suppressive" and went with iron legion xi-kt, and you know what that got me? NEGATIVE ZILCH. Out 135 bucks on the actual compound + pct (sns daa + reduce xt + erase).
I did my PCT, waited a few weeks after (even though xi-kt is "minimally suppressive") and jumped on ostarine/clen/formestane, and you know what? I'm killing it in the gym. Every session is amazing and I'm seeing daily recomposition. The scale isn't moving, but the calipers are.
My point being is that if you're going to jump on something, don't do it half-assed and don't do something that's "minimally suppressive" because in the end of the day you're just going to be angry that you spent an assload of money on something that wasn't as effective as you would've hoped.
That's my 2 cents.
Edit:
Ostarine is suppressive and I knew that going in. I read the threads of guys' test levels dropping 60% after a few days.
To note: I am not dosing it every day. I am only on it thursday evening to saturday (well, technically sunday because of the 24hr half life).
I only take it in 10mg doses every 12 hours and it is my 4th week. I do need feel "suppressed." My sex drive has not been effected and I feel great. Does this mean I'm not suppressed? Of course not. But there are psychological as well as psychological ramifications of being suppressed and from what I can gauge is that even though ostarine is a powerful androgenic compound, it's side-effects are way less than that of a ph. I have not done aas, so I can't compare it to that, and from what I've read, once you've tried test you don't want anything else, so I'm not going to compare it to that.
NoAddedHmones
Well-known member
You must be broken, im on week 3 of 11-kt and am having solid results with strength gains, vascularity and composition changes.
Grayson
Well-known member
I dosed it for 6 weeks at 1.5ml. By the 4th week I went to 2ml and nada.
The first week I saw some pronounced angiogenesis on my biceps, but that's it.
I made sure to take a hot shower before hand so that my pores were open and let it dry on my skin for 20 minutes.
Maybe IL just made bunk batches. I don't know what to tell you.
Spaniard
Well-known member
The best explanation for people saying "minimal shutdown" and varied levels of shutdown would be to take Trestolone and Testosterone. Trestolone is more suppressive than testosterone, which is why it is being looked into as a male contraceptive. So, people saying minimal shutdown would likely be basing that on either the rate at which shutdown occurs or if it occurs at a rate quick enough based on time "on" to elicit complete and total shutdown. Going back to Ostarine, it would be safe to say that in comparison to other hormones it's rate of shutdown is likely lower than other compounds for example Trestolone. That is likely where "minimal suppression" has come from, the comparison to other compounds
NoAddedHmones
Well-known member
Yeah fair enough man, with any compound, what works wonders for one person could be worthless for someone else.
jarod86
Member
Here here.
The purposes of this thread is to Learn of compounds like this.
Knowing my body, 7 weeks of OST at 25mg hasn't led to complete shut down as opposed to epistane. And I don't require a serm.
Well put Spani
Contaygious
Active member
What. You need a serm for 25mg yo! Especially at 7 weeks,
hvactech
Legend
Why do you think this, yo....
Contaygious
Active member
Everything I read says serm over 20
Grayson
Well-known member
Depends on duration.
8 weeks - maybe.
10 weeks - yep.
Then again, if you're a user running 10 weeks of an androgenic compound, maybe you should rethink your supplementation, do us a favor and hop on test.
jp_x_type
Member
Say what you like, but I've tried ostarine at various doses starting from 5mg right up to 25mg. What I discovered was that at 5mg it was OK but nothing special/noticeable. Above that dose I started becoming lethargic, sleeping in the afternoon (which never happened to me), experience low sex drive, nervousness and feeling suppressed in general. Upon stopping it, energy skyrocketed back to normal, I saw clear signs of increased T (I ran a PCT) through to appearance of some acne, oilier skin and muscle fullness/energy. Felt GREAT WITHOUT IT. Too bad I have all that money's worth of ostarine which I will NEVER EVER use again...
Definitely didn't work for me, and yes it did cause suppression in me
Definitely didn't work for me, and yes it did cause suppression in me
kissdadookie
Well-known member
That's the thing though, it's not really minimal suppression with ostarine. Iirc, you mentioned that you ran it at 25 mg's for 7 weeks? You would be pretty suppressed from that (folks with bloodwork floating around online have demonstrated that even at 10-12 mg's for like 2 weeks or something, caused a significant drop in test). So it's a huge mistake to think of ostarine as being much less suppressive than taking a PH/DS/AAS.
The length and dose used does matter. In a perfect world, the perfect technical specification for SARMs is that they should have no toxicity, only have affinity to muscle and bone AR, and have no suppression. The world is not perfect and such a SARM does not yet exist. So what we essentially end up with here currently is a compound that does indeed have minimal toxicity and most low sides, but still acts like a steroid and suppresses like a steroid on a time x dose manner.
Think of it like this, ostarine being effective is dependent on the dose used. At a high enough dose you would have an acute enough effect. How it does this? The same way a steroid does this. So your body isn't going to somehow go "oh, this is technically not classified as a steroid, so I will keep pumping out test for this person." All your body is going to notice is that the AR is being used and stimulated to a large degree which it will take as having too much of XYZ hormones in the body and then reduce the amount it naturally produces accordingly, thus you have suppression.
Now, recovery from ostarine, that's probably going to be easier than recovering from most PH/AAS/DS cycles, but just to be sure you have optimum recovery, perhaps consider using a good AI (RC) and/or lower doses of a SERM.
As for the "suppressed" feeling from epistane, epistane is not only suppressing you but it's also actively lowering your estrogen levels. So a lot of it comes from you not having a healthy level of estrogen rather than suffering from low T. It's also mildly (in the context of oral steroids) toxic so that's going to take a toll on your body. So there's a lot going on there when you took the epistane that goes beyond just being suppressed.
kissdadookie
Well-known member
That's a bizarre assumption you're making there. It's been reported by people with bloodwork that even a very low dose (bb'er standards) caused quick drops in test. We're talking about 10-12 mg's here. How one "feels" on the stuff doesn't actually have a direct relationship to being suppressed or not. There are many other factors, toxicity is one of such factors. There's a pretty direct dose dependent correlation for ostarine's side effects and likely suppression. Even at the highest studied dose in humans being 3 mg's per day, it still suppressed the subjects free test by 23% and total test by 43%. That's only at 3 mg's, bb'ers are taking at least 10 mg's all the way up to 30 mg's or so per day.
Currently we have a bunch of ostarine users claiming being suppressed or not purely from how they feel rather than being backed with bloodwork. So we have a bunch of anecdotes claiming minimal suppression yet the actual data where and when available would suggest otherwise.
Not knocking SARMs here, ostarine at least is clearly very low in terms of toxicity which is a big win right there, but these things are essentially steroids without technically being labeled as such. Thus they should be treated the same as one would approach any other PH/AAS/DS.
Grayson
Well-known member
I felt exactly what you described... but on xi-kt
kissdadookie
Well-known member
Dose that 11-oxo high enough, I don't see how it wouldn't suppress.
Grayson
Well-known member
At 1.5ml which should be about 130mg of the active compound should not yield any suppression.
kissdadookie
Well-known member
That's all you used? Damn. Then again, like the old saying goes, everyone is different
Grayson
Well-known member
That's all you used? Damn. Then again, like the old saying goes, everyone is different
Well I don't know if I was suppressed because I did not get bloodwork, but I felt the symptoms of suppression. And this was while on Albuterol.
kissdadookie
Well-known member
How was your results on it? Good? Recommend it? Perhaps worth a run at higher doses?
Grayson
Well-known member
First week was great, but then results stopped.
I dosed it 1.5 ml for 6 weeks and didn't see any change. Maybe some new veins on my arms that first week, but other than that, nada.
I had annoying lethargy throughout the run and half way through I wanted to quit because of it, but I pressed on.
I don't recommend it and I don't know what higher dosages will yield besides a significantly lighter wallet.
I would only recommend it as a stacker with a stronger pH (maybe something dry) or even ostarine, but right now I'm a fan of formestane and ostarine at the moment.
Spaniard
Well-known member
If you were to take 3 mg's per day of other compounds such as my example (Trestolone), I can assure you you'd be much more shutdown than 23 and 43%. That is why these guys are making the comparisons they are.
I'm not going to get into a long drawn out debate with you, which seems to be something you enjoy. Everyone seemed to be having a hard time understanding why people have been using the term minimal, that is why. 43% decline in levels is on average two to three hundred ng/dl at best which is much easier to rebound from than the floor.
Whether you're talking about symptomatic shutdown based on anecdotal feelings or clinical shutdown, rebounding from the loss of a couple hundred points is going present with less symptoms than complete shutdown. People can lose 43% on total T from pulling an all-nighter and binge drinking the night before. Meaning that for them that amount of shutdown is more tolerable (minimal) than being completely shutdown or walking around with 15 ng/dl of total T.
With the 23% and 43% shutdown that you cited compared to a more suppressive compound, you're talking about the difference in their dick's working or not or being able to even have the energy to get out of bed in the morning.
I'm not disagreeing with you, people should use a PCT for higher ran SARM cycles just as a precautionary measure but it's not that hard or bizarre to understand why these guys are calling it minimally suppressive. The amount they're suppressed is *for them* much easier to rebound from than coming off of a different compound that would likely elicit a greater amount of suppression, which would then present with more symptoms
kissdadookie
Well-known member
You're kidding right? You're comparing 3 mg's of trest with 3 mg's of ostarine? The potency of their effects are drastically different. LoL. You're going to be much more shut down amongst other things with the trest but it's also a heck of a lot more potent than the ostarine. So for ostarine, to run it at an "effective" dose which most people desire from it, it's going to be pretty suppressive. Also, what's the deal with the whole walking around feeling suppressed thing? People use trest as a base for other compounds that would otherwise make them feel like crap. What you feel doesn't have much to do with anything, bloodwork is your only real gauge on if you are or are not suppressed.
This excerpt from a post on ostarine from a Travis DeGraff blog post sums it up very well:
"Anecdotally guys are reporting that Ostarine is suppressing their natural testosterone levels. For example a male aged 35 ran Ostarine started taking 5 mg’s/day of Ostarine working up to 10 mg’s [Invalid Link Removed]. He had blood work done before and 7 days into his ostarine cycle. His testosterone levels dropped from 15.9 nmol/L to 9.6 nmol/L, or a 40% drop in just 7 days. There are other anecdotal reports of natural testsoterone suppression from Ostarine as well [Invalid Link Removed] This means Ostarine is likely suppressive to your natural testosterone levels, and not something you should use during PCT."
There's also no real complete shutdown. Like someone else mentioned earlier, you can come off of superdrol with no PCT and recover from it. Heck, old school guys use to not run PCT after a gear cycle.
The point with a proper PCT isn't necessarily due to being completely shut down or not or a precautionary measure, it's simply to optimize your gains from on cycle. You've put in the work and the risk, now it's time to properly preserve as much of it as possible.
For goodness sakes, let me once again point out what you and some others have been unable to grasp:
The OP has stated that he found epistane to be suppressive. This implies that he ran the effen compound with the notion that it's "mildly" suppressive. It's a full blown and strong oral steroid for goodness sakes. If a person didn't even bother to research thoroughly enough about a strong and full blown oral steroid that he/she is about and went in with the mindset that it's "mildly" suppressive, do you honestly think it's a good idea to start suggesting that XYZ is just "mildly" suppressive? Throwing such terms around is essentially masking the risks involved with these things. It's creating the impression that there's essentially no risk there and running ostarine is as safe and ok as running tribulus.
Lastly, there's a mountain of threads and posts on ostarine which already have users stating that they ran ostarine and was very suppressed from it (and we're talking about the normal dosages here, 12-25 mgs) and there's at least one person that I recall stating he ran ostarine during his PCT (with a SERM) and at the end of the PCT he was still quite suppressed.
I'm not saying the stuff is harsh or that people shouldn't take it, but for goodness sakes, at least acknowledge the risks of suppression realistically here. That's just straight up being irresponsible if one doesn't. Remember, majority of folks reading these things are also the ones with questions such as "Hey, I want to run DMZ, can I just buy some trib for PCT?"
Spaniard
Well-known member
Exactly, so compared to Trestolone and possibly other hormones the suppression of Ostarine is less, which is why people are saying it's minimal. ***Based on the comparisons*** something you fail to grasp. That was the point of my first response that you said was bizarre. That is all.
kissdadookie
Well-known member
I grasped it. What you haven't grasped is that the realistic dosages and lengths that people plan on running ostarine (as we have seen posted over and over), it no longer keeps ostarine in the "mildly" suppressive category.
For example:
Invalid Link Removed (serum levels dropped to 287)
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/igf-1-gh/175355-problems-post-ostarine.html (suppression it would appear as well as other sides)
These are not outrageous dosages either. 10-25 mg's a day. So again, back to my point, REALISTIC and PRACTICAL applications of ostarine for the desired effects, one should assume that one will be pretty suppressed. Bloodwork would probably show this and from the bloodwork that has appeared for the stuff, by and large it suggests that the stuff is pretty suppressive at typically used dosages and cycle lengths. People are mostly saying it's "minimal" because when the stuff first hit the market, that's what the status quo assumption was. That's no longer the case after it's been out for awhile and people have been using it along with backing it up with bloods.
TBH, I've seen basically one person on another board with bloodwork that showed his PCT with ostarine was a complete success... but that person was on a pretty heavy duty SERM protocol (clomid + nolva) and did taper the ostarine down to 10 mg's ED for the final 2 weeks iirc.
Here, simple concept: Yes ostarine is mildly suppressive and possibly not suppressive at all if you dose it low enough and used it in a short enough cycle. That also nets you negligible benefits so why use it? Yes ostarine is going to give you some nice benefits if you dose it high enough for long enough, but now you're introducing sides and suppression. So TECHNICALLY you're right, it's very mildly suppressive... at pretty useless doses and lengths. Why take something at useless doses and lengths just to avoid sides and suppression? Might as well not use anything at all to begin with.
Spaniard
Well-known member
kissdadookie
Well-known member
Only part that matters ^
LoL.
