Lukef2000
Well-known member
LOL i actually agree with most of the **** you said bar that one statement.
Best AI to control rebound gyno after Epistane?
- Thread starter tjfletcher195
- Start date
Goliath1
Banned
Ya know what, like R4J said, it really doesn't matter if a proper pct is ran..
I've simply seen labs that make me believe my statment and it was on this site.. However, i can't find the thread which is convenient lol
Lukef2000
Well-known member
you have to question some of the studies done on these compounds, with enough money in the right persons pocket results can be made to look however you want really, i know this for fact as my wife is a medical scientist and has conducted many such studies on various **** over the years. if say for example vital labs wanted a study on epi to look a certain way which will help them sell more of a product then they will make that study look how they want it. this is probably why many studies and real world experiences vary so much. if you do find the thread link it up id like to have a read.
i agree if a proper pct is run the chances of something adverse happening is unlikey but some unfortunate souls have issues even when things are done correctly quite simply you don't kn ow how the body is going to react to these things and bad **** can happen. period.
Goliath1
Banned
Yea man, I can see that happening..
This was just bloodwork 5,10,15,20 days after Epi and no estrogen rebound occurred.. He maintained levels consistently.. But I'd have to find it and read it again to speak anymore on it..
Hey bro, wanna be friends?! Lmao
Lukef2000
Well-known member
I'm always a skeptic lol just because it worked for him doesn't meant it would work for you or i. i can run 500mg of test per week without an AI and my e2 levels are fine and i don't have any adverse sides like gyno or fluid retention but some people can get gyno off of 300mg/week with an AI everyone responds differently to these drugs and whenever you start messing with your hormones anything is possible.
were already internet friends lmao
Goliath1
Banned
Yea man, my gyno came on a non aromatizing run mid cycle.. But now on Test I'm all good..
Weird how it works..
And Sweet!
jbryand101b
Banned
Wut¿
jbryand101b
Banned
Da fuq?
jbryand101b
Banned
Huh?
jbryand101b
Banned
jbryand101b
Banned
jbryand101b
Banned
I'm enjoying this. I find it entertaining.
jbryand101b
Banned
This looks decent.
jbryand101b
Banned
Raloxifene
jbryand101b
Banned
It's the dienolone plus Epi.
jbryand101b
Banned
It's a highly probable side effect from fugging with your hormones. If it scares you, you should probably just stay away.
Gyno is a bitch to deal with.
jbryand101b
Banned
This is the best thing you said.
In a nutshell, we're all different, you gotta find what works best for you.
Trial and error.
jbryand101b
Banned
Hallelujah! Praise Jebus!
It should be noted:
Non aromatizable steroids can also cause "estrogen rebound"
jbryand101b
Banned
I don't.
jbryand101b
Banned
There are no studies of Epi on humans.
jbryand101b
Banned
So. Why would you take that for gold then turn around and say we're all different, these compounds will effect us all different
jbryand101b
Banned
Sure, who would understand human physiology and properties of synthetic steroids?
jbryand101b
Banned
That was good to kill an hour.
Goliath1
Banned
In a nutshell your a smart guy!
However your weak, little and your routine sucks!!
Your results show you don't use any of your knowledge and after all of these cycle you've ran, you still look like a 12 yr old boy!!
But hey, what do I know..
jbryand101b
Banned
hmower said:
hmower said:
Good times.
I'm at work making people bigger and stronger than I with nutrition coaching & science based training routines.
I'll hit this back later when I'm off for some obvious intelligent discussion later
Lukef2000
Well-known member
perhaps my wording could have been a bit better but theres plenty of evidence out there about epis effect on oestrogen receptors
decent yes but as I'm sure your aware nothing is 100% when it comes to hormones and you have no idea how your body is going to react to certain drugs or upon cessation of certain drugs.
yup works wonders
just because you haven't seen any doesn't mean that they're not out there just pulled this off steroidology from PA
[A case of advanced breast cancer successfully tre...[Gan To Kagaku Ryoho. 1988] - PubMed Result
A patient with stage IV advanced breast cancer with multiple metastasis (bones of the whole body, lungs) were treated by ovariectomy, administration of an non-steroidal antiestrogen (tamoxifen) and mild chemotherapeutic drugs, with favorable results. After four years, however, the patient had a relapse of the cancer. A steroidal antiestrogen (epitiostanol) was then administered with satisfactory results. When a breast cancer relapse occurs in patients once treated successfully with endocrinotherapy, a different form of endocrinotherapy should be tried. There is a possibility that the mechanism of action of Epitiostanol, which is regarded as a steroidal antiestrogen, is different from that of tamoxifen in which an estrogen receptor (ER) system is included.
By methylating epitiostanol, it becomes orally bioavailable, just like every other oral steroid. Hence...Epistane.
Here are some blood results from people who were running epistane while getting bloodwork.
2006 Epi Bloodwork (20-45mg linear ramp):
SuperSoldier & Dr.D
_______________SS_____________________Dr.D
Date: ...1/07.....1/16.....1/26.................1/01.....2/09
AST ......26........32.........41...................24 ........52
ALT ......31........39.........51...................20 ........45
GGT ......09........05.........07...................15 ........21
ALB.......4.0........3.8........3.9............... ..4.5.......4.8
TBIL......1.8........1.1........1.3............... ..0.6.......0.5
DBIL......0.3........0.3........0.2............... ..NA........NA
CHOL.....145.......149.......171.................1 99......208
LDH.......156.......198.......208................. 129......147
HDL........32.........19.........9................ ...30........26
The following is a nice write-up from LakeMountD:
How Epistane Works
Battling Gyno
Estradiol is the strongest form of estrogen in the human body, effecting several organs. Estradiol enters cells freely and interacts with a cytoplasmic target cell receptor (ER***945; and ER***946
. When the estrogen receptor has bound its ligand it can enter the nucleus of the target cell and regulate gene transcription which leads to formation of messenger RNA. The mRNA interacts with ribosomes to produce specific proteins that express the effect of estradiol upon the target cell. Epistane***8482; works by binding and deactivating the ER***946; so that no estrodiol-elicited effects can be carried out in the cell. In the case of breast tissue ER***946; is the primary target receptor responsible for growth and proliferation. Epistane***8482; binds to the ER***946; and not only disables the receptor from binding to estradiol, it actually puts the cell in an estrogen deprived state, which decreases the cells viability and leads to a decrease in size and eventual cell death. Other SERMs also block the ER***946; receptor and AI***8217;s even block the formation of Estradiol from testosterone conversion. However, the effectiveness at the receptor and long term side effects vary. Epistane***8482; has been shown to have one of the strongest and longest effects at the binding site, with minimal side effects when compared to other anti-estrogens.Increasing Lean Body Mass
Epistane***8482; also binds to androgen receptors located on skeletal muscle cells and muscle stem cells. This then leads to changes in muscle cell function and protein synthesis. In the case of muscle stem cells, they will actually change and fuse with your active adult skeletal muscles increasing the muscles potential for growth and repair. On the opposing side, the presence of androgens actually decreases the ability of stem cells to form new fat cells. So you now have increased stem cell conversion to muscle cells and decreased stem cell conversion to fat cells, giving you more positive effects out of your nutrition and training.
Here is the Product Description
Epistane***8482;
Finally the PRO-Anabolic, anti-estrogen we have all been waiting for has arrived! Epistane***8482;, exhibits a strong, long lasting anti-estrogen effect that is organ tissue specific. This means it works only where you want it to work. Broad range estrogen blockers and aromatase inhibitors can result in system shut down, aching joints, and decreased IGF-I expression. Epistane***8482; binds specifically to the 17***946;-estradiol receptor protein in the target tissues. Because of its long lasting and strong effects on specific tissue, Epistane***8482; can significantly reduce and reverse the effects of gynocomastia because not only does Epistane***8482; specifically block estrogen in breast tissue but it induces an estrogen-depleted condition which leads to apoptosis or the death of the breast tissue cells. Studies show that small doses of the parent compound, Epitiostanol, at just 10-20mg/week showed a complete disappearance of the mass and pain in 25% of the male patients in the clinical trail, while the other 75% of the patients showed at least a 50% reduction in the mass and complete loss of pain in just 4-8 weeks. That***8217;s results in 100% of the male users with no side effects. While compounds such as Clomid and Nolvadex also block the 17***946;-estradiol receptor, they do not elicit the same increase in protein synthesis and strength gains that Epistane can offer.
Epistane***8482; is more than an anti-estrogen, though, as it also binds to androgen receptors in skeletal muscle. As a PRO-Anabolic compound Epistane***8482; promotes increases in strength and lean body mass with an anabolic/androgenic value (Q ratio) of 12. With most powerful androgens there is a high risk of the natural suppression of the gonads. Epistane***8482;, unlike other PRO-Anabolic compounds that have recently been released, is relatively mild on the gonads and, due to the anti-estrogenic effects and the fact that Epistane***8482; keeps LH levels elevated, post cycle therapy becomes a breeze. All effects combined make Epistane***8482; a great compound to produce dry, lean gains in muscle mass with minimal side effects and suppression of the body***8217;s natural androgen production, while lowering the effects of natural estrogen or combating estrogen from endogenous/exogenous sources. This makes it a powerful tool when combined with ***8220;wet***8221; compounds in attempt to increase gains and decrease side effects. One can also not overlook the potential benefit of this compound taken alone, especially when recovering from periods of ***8220;wet***8221; compounds. If you don***8217;t want to worry about how your lipid and liver values are doing and whether or not you are going to get gynocomastia or not then get Epistane***8482;, stop worrying, and experience what others are raving about!
Our Member's Logs!
getfitdoc: Invalid Link Removed
ManOfMuscle: Invalid Link Removed
If anyone else starts a log let me know.
Epistane and Women
Epistane has been used by women with great success. Side effects for women have been low. Some prefer it over Anavar since it does not cause bloating. Clitoral enlargement has not been an issue in these women. The most common dosing for women is 10mg EOD, or 10mg ED.
LEGAL TO BUY:
PA
jbryand101b
Banned
I can't make heads or tails of who said what.
Only that there is a study on non methyl version.
Comparing it with Epi is like comparing masteron with superdrol.
Pa has stated a number of times, if Epi does have anti estrogen properties, they will be on a similar scale as dht.
If you have sources for info in that write up, please post, cause at first glance, it looks choppy.
Only that there is a study on non methyl version.
Comparing it with Epi is like comparing masteron with superdrol.
Pa has stated a number of times, if Epi does have anti estrogen properties, they will be on a similar scale as dht.
If you have sources for info in that write up, please post, cause at first glance, it looks choppy.
Lukef2000
Well-known member
It states that epitiostanol is the parent hormone of epistane, methylating epitiostanol makes it orally bio available.
jbryand101b
Banned
Methylating masteron makes it orally bio available, also makes it superdrol a completely different monster.
It isn't a parent hormone. Dht is the parent hormone.
It is a different steroid
It's like saying boldenone and dbol are the same.
Methylating it makes it orally bio available. And completely different.
If people want to understand steroids they should start by learning what the add ons do to the compound. Then when reading things from others, they'd know how to understand or tell if it's good info.
jbryand101b
Banned
Luke, you were correct about rebound from epi, but how was off.
Powerful non aromatizing compounds ( on top of if Epi does have anti estrogen properties)
Will cause a shift in the estrogen:androgen equilibrium the body is going to attempt to fix this by making more estrogen.
Powerful non aromatizing compounds ( on top of if Epi does have anti estrogen properties)
Will cause a shift in the estrogen:androgen equilibrium the body is going to attempt to fix this by making more estrogen.
tjfletcher195
New member
So is there any way to minimize the risk of gyno from an epistane cycle so it is improbable, or is there always going to be a high likelihood of gyno regardless of what supports are used?
Nitro41
Member
Read page 2 where me and goliath are talking. Its all right there. Everything you (and I) need
stann123
Active member
Who said theres a high likelihood of gyno from epi?
jbryand101b
Banned
Using an ai on cycle to control estrogen.
You'll have to find what ai and dose works best for you though.
tjfletcher195
New member
Just doing quick google searches, there are literally tons of people talking about getting gyno months after their PCT is complete
What if I run something like test prop for 6 weeks along with 4 weeks of epistane (the epistane at the front end), and then have either arimidex/aromasin on hand in case gyno symptoms appear (as well as nolva), that should be enough? That would cover on cycle, but what about symptoms showing up after PCT? If symptoms begin appearing, would I hop on nolva again, plus arimidex/aromasin?
jbryand101b
Banned
I use an ai on cycle and during my pct
My personal preference of ai is liquid letrozole.
Most won't like this.
Have Raloxifene on hand if your worried about gyno.
I like topical formestane for on cycle as well
Now, keep in mind, some people Epi dries them up quick and keeps estrogen low.
My personal preference of ai is liquid letrozole.
Most won't like this.
Have Raloxifene on hand if your worried about gyno.
I like topical formestane for on cycle as well
Now, keep in mind, some people Epi dries them up quick and keeps estrogen low.
srblan
Active member
It's not highly probable either way (gyno on epistane). rebound gyno is prevented by tapering a suicidal aromatase inhibitor (erase or exemestane for example), which attaches to aromatase and disables it, rather than blocking it so when you discontinue use you get a rebound. I would taper at the end of PCT.
jbryand101b
Banned
Suicidal or not, you should taper to prevent theoretical rebound.
superdroller
Banned
Taper your clomid and run erase during and three weeks after. Mike arnold says ANY suicidal ai is fine. Just don't kill yourself. Pun intended.
srblan
Active member
Theoretical rebound, the worst kind!
yep totally agree about tapering, thanks for keeping me honest.superdroller
Banned
I like letro for all my ai needs. Can low dose it every three days or ramp it up for gyno issues.
liftandeat
Active member
Epi can cause gyno, plain and simple. Whether it's during your cycle or rebound. If you have been around PH and AAS awhile you should know to always have an AI on hand. I personally will always run Aromasin during any cycle idc if the compound doesn't convert.. I'm on Aromasin almost year round... Best AI ever IMO.
I've had gyno from epi... I learned the hard way..
I've had gyno from epi... I learned the hard way..
superdroller
Banned
What's your thoughts on letro? I like that it's versatile and one bottle goes a long way. Never tried aromasin but I'm thinking it must be good as it's often recommended and used by many people.
reps4jesus
Well-known member
I also like letro. I just use a low dose e3d as you said. **** will destroy your joints if you aren't careful, though.
jbryand101b
Banned
Hazard5150
Member
I'm about to start my epi cycle. Im thinking about getting a bottle of formeron and using it whil on cycle. Would it be wise to taper the formeron at the end of cycle or run it thru my pct. My pct is nolva and super pct.
Goliath1
Banned
Theres really no need to taper it going into pct if you do run it.. I would taper the AI after the Nolva though..