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Distilled Water said:
Not familiar with our other products that contained forsklin I guess
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was pink magic the last product to disclose forslean? Why not disclose the 95% extract? That's obviously a good thing That can be done without disclosing the mg......
 
It's tough not knowing the forsk content, especially for those wanting to stack with another product containing it. Gonna have to give it shot solo, pretty good deal with the Modern BCAA!
 
GH247 said:
Hey Distilled Water, does that mean that it is 95%? I know you probably can't disclose exact amounts, but any chance you could give me a ballpark number?
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They, under USpowders, sell Camp95, which is a 95% forsk product...seems reasonable to me that would be what's in here as well....
 
schizm said:
They, under USpowders, sell Camp95, which is a 95% forsk product...seems reasonable to me that would be what's in here as well....
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Thanks :)
 
De__eB said:
I wouldn't doubt their yohimbe extract, or the dose of forskolin.

The only confusing inclusion to me is the ashwaganda at that dose.
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It's legit at 2 caps a day, the single cap amount depending on which study you read is still within "adaptagenic" range. You also have to be careful with sedation at certain amounts...If any ingredient in the blend has a range its ashwaganda.
 
USPlabsRep said:
It's legit at 2 caps a day, the single cap amount depending on which study you read is still within "adaptagenic" range. You also have to be careful with sedation at certain amounts...If any ingredient in the blend has a range its ashwaganda.
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I'm loving my norco but mightttt pull the trigger just to have on hand.
 
USPlabsRep said:
It's legit at 2 caps a day, the single cap amount depending on which study you read is still within "adaptagenic" range. You also have to be careful with sedation at certain amounts...If any ingredient in the blend has a range its ashwaganda.
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what about at 3caps / day? 2morning upon waking 1 afternoon
 
USPlabsRep said:
Yes, the addition really sets it apart as you get deeper into the bottle. it's a building effect that you should feel 14 days in or so.
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With the amount of forskolin in the product would that cause an upset stomach on an empty upon waking? Sometimes high doses can do that.
 
The Solution said:
With the amount of forskolin in the product would that cause an upset stomach on an empty upon waking? Sometimes high doses can do that.
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How forskolin affects users' stomachs can be highly individual. Some may experience a slight GI discomfort at 25mg, while others are fine with 100mg+. In most cases, those who are prone to GI issues see improvement with continued use.
 
breezy11 said:
How forskolin affects users' stomachs can be highly individual. Some may experience a slight GI discomfort at 25mg, while others are fine with 100mg+. In most cases, those who are prone to GI issues, see improvement with continued use.
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Breezy is correct. I have had this problem with forskolin products in the past. Lowering the serving size and then working back up over time solved the problem.

To those inquiring about the extracts, I'm sorry but we cannot release that info. Just try it for yourself and you'll fall in love. ;)
 
digitalducki said:
Right? ^^ thought I was missing something.
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Nope. Yawn.

To be honest the formula is decent though in regards to the ingredients used. Just not really possible to hit adequate doses besides a few that require lower mg amounts to make a difference with that small of a blend. The headline of it being their most advanced formula yet is laughable but hey marketing has and never will be a game of honesty.
 
xhrr said:
Nope. Yawn.

To be honest the formula is decent though in regards to the ingredients used. Just not really possible to hit adequate doses besides a few that require lower mg amounts to make a difference with that small of a blend. The headline of it being their most advanced formula yet is laughable but hey marketing has and never will be a game of honesty.
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It looks like it should be dosed ok though @ 3 caps a day.
 
xhrr said:
Nope. Yawn.

To be honest the formula is decent though in regards to the ingredients used. Just not really possible to hit adequate doses besides a few that require lower mg amounts to make a difference with that small of a blend. The headline of it being their most advanced formula yet is laughable but hey marketing has and never will be a game of honesty.
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What's the correct dosing of each?
 
USPlabsRep said:
What's the correct dosing of each?
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213x3=639 mg of actives spread out between 4 ingredients whose extracts are not made known to the consumer. A lot of these ingredients dosing is going to be highly varied depending on the extract and actives that are being extracted. Forskolin for example we don't know if it is a 10% or 95%. That will be a huge factor in determining an effective dose.

Basically in short it is tough to answer. Maybe if the extracts were more clear on the actives I could better answer this question. But giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming they are all high quality it would still be tough to get all those ingredients packed in that prop blend adequately dosed even at 3 pills a day. I like the ingredients chosen but my opinion on the dosing still stands.
 
xhrr said:
213x3=639 mg of actives spread out between 4 ingredients whose extracts are not made known to the consumer. A lot of these ingredients dosing is going to be highly varied depending on the extract and actives that are being extracted. Forskolin for example we don't know if it is a 10% or 95%. That will be a huge factor in determining an effective dose.

Basically in short it is tough to answer. Maybe if the extracts were more clear on the actives I could better answer this question. But giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming they are all high quality it would still be tough to get all those ingredients packed in that prop blend adequately dosed even at 3 pills a day. I like the ingredients chosen but my opinion on the dosing still stands.
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They have been using f95 for ages. Maybe a decade at this point. Think they were one of the first to use f95.

Ashwagandha, I've used the patented version as well as various other versions with different extracts. They have different feels to them and I don't necessarily find the patented extract to be the best for all scenarios. Also, 450 mg's of any of them should illicit some effect.

Dunno what the proper dosing should be on the olive leaf extract and I think there's one more herbal extract in the formula as well?
 
xhrr said:
213x3=639 mg of actives spread out between 4 ingredients whose extracts are not made known to the consumer. A lot of these ingredients dosing is going to be highly varied depending on the extract and actives that are being extracted. Forskolin for example we don't know if it is a 10% or 95%. That will be a huge factor in determining an effective dose.

Basically in short it is tough to answer. Maybe if the extracts were more clear on the actives I could better answer this question. But giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming they are all high quality it would still be tough to get all those ingredients packed in that prop blend adequately dosed even at 3 pills a day. I like the ingredients chosen but my opinion on the dosing still stands.
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--

Pure Yohimbine has been human studied at 20mg/day and at .2mg/kg. With their full spectrum extract I'd guess this is somewhere around 50mg extract per day.

Forskolin 95% works great at 50mg/day.

Higenamine works great at 50mg/day

--

If those ballpark numbers are close to right (50mg each) that leaves 489mg/day for the Ashwaganda and Olive Leaf.

Most human studies on Olive leaf work out to 50mg of Oleuropein, but extract % being highly variable who knows what the dose is here.

The dose of Ashwaganda varies a lot, what's in EpiBurn is probably on the lower end of doses used, but I wouldn't call that the star ingredient anyway.

It's pretty clear they picked low dose ingredients on purpose to keep serving size and capsule size low.

Remember, a huge part of the audience for fat burners is women, and while male lifters are historically okay with swalloing a handful of horse pills, I'm not so sure the same is true of most female athletes.

If there's a category of product pretty easy to dose properly, fit into small serving sizes, still make healthy margins on, it's fat burners.

--

Anyway, I'm failing to see why you don't think you can fit an active dose of all 5 ingredients into 639mg/day.

Would it be great to see exact dosing and extract standardization? Sure would.

But you're not going to get that from most companies.
 
xhrr said:
213x3=639 mg of actives spread out between 4 ingredients whose extracts are not made known to the consumer. A lot of these ingredients dosing is going to be highly varied depending on the extract and actives that are being extracted. Forskolin for example we don't know if it is a 10% or 95%. That will be a huge factor in determining an effective dose.

Basically in short it is tough to answer. Maybe if the extracts were more clear on the actives I could better answer this question. But giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming they are all high quality it would still be tough to get all those ingredients packed in that prop blend adequately dosed even at 3 pills a day. I like the ingredients chosen but my opinion on the dosing still stands.
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I didn't ask you to guess the dosing of the product. You said it's under-dosed. I asked what are the correct dosing for the each ingredient. It would be a common follow question to your posting. Its under dosed is your opinion based on what you believe is proper dosing of each ingredient. What is that dosing?
 
USPlabsRep said:
I didn't ask you to guess the dosing of the product. You said it's under-dosed. I asked what are the correct dosing for the each ingredient. It would be a common follow question to your posting. Its under dosed is your opinion based on what you believe is proper dosing of each ingredient. What is that dosing?
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I just said I can't answer cause I don't know the extracts and %'s. I said it would be hard to hit "proper" dosages based on personal experience and studies in that prop blend. Is your Forskolin 95%? if so 50mg. If not your gonna need more it's that simple. I would just think using a high quality 95% extract you would want people to know and make it known as a selling point. I chimed in gave my opinion admitted I can't give proper dosages without more info. Maybe I jumped the gun I'm just playing devils advocate in an industry that isn't exactly the most honest. I question everything even companies I do like such as PES for example. I give your cissus a huge thumbs up even if I have a less than stellar opinion on this burner. I could be wrong about it, I'm not above being wrong.

More people should speak up and not just chime in aww man sick bros gonna get shred city on this ****. That accomplishes nothing and doesn't generate intelligent conversation.

De__eB said:
--

Pure Yohimbine has been human studied at 20mg/day and at .2mg/kg. With their full spectrum extract I'd guess this is somewhere around 50mg extract per day.

Forskolin 95% works great at 50mg/day.

Higenamine works great at 50mg/day

--

If those ballpark numbers are close to right (50mg each) that leaves 489mg/day for the Ashwaganda and Olive Leaf.

Most human studies on Olive leaf work out to 50mg of Oleuropein, but extract % being highly variable who knows what the dose is here.

The dose of Ashwaganda varies a lot, what's in EpiBurn is probably on the lower end of doses used, but I wouldn't call that the star ingredient anyway.

It's pretty clear they picked low dose ingredients on purpose to keep serving size and capsule size low.

Remember, a huge part of the audience for fat burners is women, and while male lifters are historically okay with swalloing a handful of horse pills, I'm not so sure the same is true of most female athletes.

If there's a category of product pretty easy to dose properly, fit into small serving sizes, still make healthy margins on, it's fat burners.

--

Anyway, I'm failing to see why you don't think you can fit an active dose of all 5 ingredients into 639mg/day.

Would it be great to see exact dosing and extract standardization? Sure would.

But you're not going to get that from most companies.
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You make good points. If that is indeed the extracts and dosages then it isn't bad. It isn't pure higenamine though it is an extract from the plant nelumbo so the dosage may have to be a little higher to hit that mark. Like I said I'm a fan of every single ingredient just the vagueness of the extracts is confusing at least pertaining to some of the ingredients. Like Forkskolin why can't we know the %? Why can't you tell us what you are extracting from nelumbo. Most people on here know its likely higenamine but it isn't like that is the only active in that plant that could be extracted so how would the normal person know? They can go and google it and go oh cool there is a lotus flower in my fat burner and still have no idea WTF it that gonna do. Maybe it's in the write up I don't know but the majority of consumers won't read it anyway. Obviously not USP fault simply stating the obvious...just my 2 cents you made the most intelligent rebuttal of anyone so props for that. If you are indeed correct I could get behind this product.
 
xhrr said:
I just said I can't answer cause I don't know the extracts and %'s. I said it would be hard to hit "proper" dosages based on personal experience and studies in that prop blend. Is your Forskolin 95%? if so 50mg. If not your gonna need more it's that simple. I would just think using a high quality 95% extract you would want people to know and make it known as a selling point. I chimed in gave my opinion admitted I can't give proper dosages without more info. Maybe I jumped the gun I'm just playing devils advocate in an industry that isn't exactly the most honest. I question everything even companies I do like such as PES for example. I give your cissus a huge thumbs up even if I have a less than stellar opinion on this burner. I could be wrong about it, I'm not above being wrong.

More people should speak up and not just chime in aww man sick bros gonna get shred city on this ****. That accomplishes nothing and doesn't generate intelligent conversation.



You make good points. If that is indeed the extracts and dosages then it isn't bad. It isn't pure higenamine though it is an extract from the plant nelumbo so the dosage may have to be a little higher to hit that mark. Like I said I'm a fan of every single ingredient just the vagueness of the extracts is confusing at least pertaining to some of the ingredients. Like Forkskolin why can't we know the %? Why can't you tell us what you are extracting from nelumbo. Most people on here know its likely higenamine but it isn't like that is the only active in that plant that could be extracted so how would the normal person know? They can go and google it and go oh cool there is a lotus flower in my fat burner and still have no idea WTF it that gonna do. Maybe it's in the write up I don't know but the majority of consumers won't read it anyway. Obviously not USP fault simply stating the obvious...just my 2 cents you made the most intelligent rebuttal of anyone so props for that. If you are indeed correct I could get behind this product.
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I don't think that the normal person even knows what higenamine is. It's more likely that the more seasoned consumer knows what higenamine is but that customer base also are quite capable at deciphering labels.

USPLabs have been using F95 for quite some time now, they probably have F95 raws coming out of their ears, so I don't see why they would all of a sudden use anything other than F95. As for nelumbo extract, let's be perfectly honest, when one sees that, it's far more likely that it's not an actual extract but instead just straight higenamine. The ashwaghanda, 450 mg's of it roughly will do something of note, doesn't even matter all that much what it's been standardized for (I've used a myriad of different ashwaghanda products). So yeah, I really don't see how this new burner from them is all that questionable when you look at the label.
 
xhrr said:
You make good points. If that is indeed the extracts and dosages then it isn't bad. It isn't pure higenamine though it is an extract from the plant nelumbo so the dosage may have to be a little higher to hit that mark. Like I said I'm a fan of every single ingredient just the vagueness of the extracts is confusing at least pertaining to some of the ingredients. Like Forkskolin why can't we know the %? Why can't you tell us what you are extracting from nelumbo. Most people on here know its likely higenamine but it isn't like that is the only active in that plant that could be extracted so how would the normal person know? They can go and google it and go oh cool there is a lotus flower in my fat burner and still have no idea WTF it that gonna do. Maybe it's in the write up I don't know but the majority of consumers won't read it anyway. Obviously not USP fault simply stating the obvious...just my 2 cents you made the most intelligent rebuttal of anyone so props for that. If you are indeed correct I could get behind this product.
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Well, here's some random thoughts on proprietary blends w/re to specified extraction percentages and specific extraction targets.

Label margin of error compliance - Compare the two following ingredients:

- Yohimbe (Pausinystalia Yohimbe) (bark) extract
- Yohimbe (Pausinystalia Yohimbe) (bark) extract (Standardized for 50% Yohimbine, and 95% total alkaloid content)

Now say you have a product issue, or the FDA decides to do some 'randomly targeted' tests on your supplement facts, or a lawsuit happy lawyer is buying every product on the market to do label testing.

Being 100% compliant with the first verbiage is a lot easier to guarantee than the second. In fact, it would be exceedingly difficult to prove label non-compliance in the first case. The amount of yohimbine could be 0%, it could be 100%, and that's still compliant with the label.

In the second case, it is dramatically easier to test the product for yohimbine, and the three other predominant yohimbe alkaloids to obtain total amounts present, rinse and repeat looking for variance outside the acceptable margin for error.

With as much litigation and bias enforcement targeting as the industry sees, It' not surprising to me at all that a lot of bigger companies provide less specific extraction information

--

That said, when you look at the implications of what you specify about your plant extracts, and the shortcuts that allows a company to take, that's where buying from companies you trust comes into play.

You could have a product with EpiBurn Pro's label that was ineffective garbage, and was 209mg of ashwaganda standardized for inert constituents, and 1mg of each of the other ingredients.

You could also have a product with EpiBurn Pro's label that has generally effective doses of every ingredient as I mentioned in my previous post.

In this case, I'm prone to believe that it's closer to the latter than the former since these are mostly ingredients USPLabs has used extensively before, to generally positive feedback from users.

--
 
xhrr said:
I just said I can't answer cause I don't know the extracts and %'s. I said it would be hard to hit "proper" dosages based on personal experience and studies in that prop blend. Is your Forskolin 95%? if so 50mg. If not your gonna need more it's that simple. I would just think using a high quality 95% extract you would want people to know and make it known as a selling point. I chimed in gave my opinion admitted I can't give proper dosages without more info. Maybe I jumped the gun I'm just playing devils advocate in an industry that isn't exactly the most honest. I question everything even companies I do like such as PES for example. I give your cissus a huge thumbs up even if I have a less than stellar opinion on this burner. I could be wrong about it, I'm not above being wrong.

More people should speak up and not just chime in aww man sick bros gonna get shred city on this ****. That accomplishes nothing and doesn't generate intelligent conversation.



You make good points. If that is indeed the extracts and dosages then it isn't bad. It isn't pure higenamine though it is an extract from the plant nelumbo so the dosage may have to be a little higher to hit that mark. Like I said I'm a fan of every single ingredient just the vagueness of the extracts is confusing at least pertaining to some of the ingredients. Like Forkskolin why can't we know the %? Why can't you tell us what you are extracting from nelumbo. Most people on here know its likely higenamine but it isn't like that is the only active in that plant that could be extracted so how would the normal person know? They can go and google it and go oh cool there is a lotus flower in my fat burner and still have no idea WTF it that gonna do. Maybe it's in the write up I don't know but the majority of consumers won't read it anyway. Obviously not USP fault simply stating the obvious...just my 2 cents you made the most intelligent rebuttal of anyone so props for that. If you are indeed correct I could get behind this product.
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I'm asking for your intelligent rebuttal. Again, You claimed under dosed. How did you arrive to that conclusion? You've have to research ingredients and their "actives" in percentages or amounts to accurately comment. Again, At what percentages and amounts should each ingredient in the produce be dosed regardless of the amounts and percentages in EpiBurn Pro?
 
De__eB said:
Well, here's some random thoughts on proprietary blends w/re to specified extraction percentages and specific extraction targets.

Label margin of error compliance - Compare the two following ingredients:

- Yohimbe (Pausinystalia Yohimbe) (bark) extract
- Yohimbe (Pausinystalia Yohimbe) (bark) extract (Standardized for 50% Yohimbine, and 95% total alkaloid content)

Now say you have a product issue, or the FDA decides to do some 'randomly targeted' tests on your supplement facts, or a lawsuit happy lawyer is buying every product on the market to do label testing.

Being 100% compliant with the first verbiage is a lot easier to guarantee than the second. In fact, it would be exceedingly difficult to prove label non-compliance in the first case. The amount of yohimbine could be 0%, it could be 100%, and that's still compliant with the label.

In the second case, it is dramatically easier to test the product for yohimbine, and the three other predominant yohimbe alkaloids to obtain total amounts present, rinse and repeat looking for variance outside the acceptable margin for error.

With as much litigation and bias enforcement targeting as the industry sees, It' not surprising to me at all that a lot of bigger companies provide less specific extraction information

--

That said, when you look at the implications of what you specify about your plant extracts, and the shortcuts that allows a company to take, that's where buying from companies you trust comes into play.

You could have a product with EpiBurn Pro's label that was ineffective garbage, and was 209mg of ashwaganda standardized for inert constituents, and 1mg of each of the other ingredients.

You could also have a product with EpiBurn Pro's label that has generally effective doses of every ingredient as I mentioned in my previous post.

In this case, I'm prone to believe that it's closer to the latter than the former since these are mostly ingredients USPLabs has used extensively before, to generally positive feedback from users.

--
Click to expand...

I would say fortunately the consumer nor the company's within the industry understands the microscope the company is under. Labeling is a hot topic.
 
De__eB said:
Well, here's some random thoughts on proprietary blends w/re to specified extraction percentages and specific extraction targets.

Label margin of error compliance - Compare the two following ingredients:

- Yohimbe (Pausinystalia Yohimbe) (bark) extract
- Yohimbe (Pausinystalia Yohimbe) (bark) extract (Standardized for 50% Yohimbine, and 95% total alkaloid content)

Now say you have a product issue, or the FDA decides to do some 'randomly targeted' tests on your supplement facts, or a lawsuit happy lawyer is buying every product on the market to do label testing.

Being 100% compliant with the first verbiage is a lot easier to guarantee than the second. In fact, it would be exceedingly difficult to prove label non-compliance in the first case. The amount of yohimbine could be 0%, it could be 100%, and that's still compliant with the label.

In the second case, it is dramatically easier to test the product for yohimbine, and the three other predominant yohimbe alkaloids to obtain total amounts present, rinse and repeat looking for variance outside the acceptable margin for error.

With as much litigation and bias enforcement targeting as the industry sees, It' not surprising to me at all that a lot of bigger companies provide less specific extraction information

--

That said, when you look at the implications of what you specify about your plant extracts, and the shortcuts that allows a company to take, that's where buying from companies you trust comes into play.

You could have a product with EpiBurn Pro's label that was ineffective garbage, and was 209mg of ashwaganda standardized for inert constituents, and 1mg of each of the other ingredients.

You could also have a product with EpiBurn Pro's label that has generally effective doses of every ingredient as I mentioned in my previous post.

In this case, I'm prone to believe that it's closer to the latter than the former since these are mostly ingredients USPLabs has used extensively before, to generally positive feedback from users.

--
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USPlabsRep said:
I'm asking for your intelligent rebuttal. Again, You claimed under dosed. How did you arrive to that conclusion? You've have to research ingredients and their "actives" in percentages or amounts to accurately comment. Again, At what percentages and amounts should each ingredient in the produce be dosed regardless of the amounts and percentages in EpiBurn Pro?
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He basically just answered this. I'm playing worst case scenario here. If the extracts are quality as mentioned then it should be good to go.

I can't answer the question you want because the extracts and percentages are everything. Forskolin at 10% is going to need to be dosed around 500mg to hit the 50 mg most people and myself shoot for. Ashwaganda I usually dose around 500mg or slightly more when using Sensoril or KSM-66. At that dosage I enjoyed the effects Right there comes out to 1000 mg. OLE is going to depend because like I said I don't know the extract. If its super low you are going to need more mg to hit a nice dose of oleuropein. You can't just say extracts aside cause they play a huge part in assessing the correct dosage and how many mg it will take to hit that dosage. Forskolin is the best example of this as I alluded to.
 
kissdadookie said:
I don't think that the normal person even knows what higenamine is. It's more likely that the more seasoned consumer knows what higenamine is but that customer base also are quite capable at deciphering labels.

USPLabs have been using F95 for quite some time now, they probably have F95 raws coming out of their ears, so I don't see why they would all of a sudden use anything other than F95. As for nelumbo extract, let's be perfectly honest, when one sees that, it's far more likely that it's not an actual extract but instead just straight higenamine. The ashwaghanda, 450 mg's of it roughly will do something of note, doesn't even matter all that much what it's been standardized for (I've used a myriad of different ashwaghanda products). So yeah, I really don't see how this new burner from them is all that questionable when you look at the label.
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I would agree with the higenamine statement but you can't say that with full confidence cause in reality you just don't know unless they come out and say that. I prefer not to blindly assume.

Well I've used some such as NOW upwards of 1000 mg and got nothing from it but Sensoril and KSM-66 at ~500mg and more were very effective. So while it might not matter for you based on personal experience I definitely think the extract matters in my experience.
 
xhrr said:
I would agree with the higenamine statement but you can't say that with full confidence cause in reality you just don't know unless they come out and say that. I prefer not to blindly assume.

Well I've used some such as NOW upwards of 1000 mg and got nothing from it but Sensoril and KSM-66 at ~500mg and more were very effective. So while it might not matter for you based on personal experience I definitely think the extract matters in my experience.
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The way I view it, actual higenamine is probably less expensive than getting the actual herb/herbal extract?

As for ashwagandha, I actually prefer the Solaray ashwagandha vs sensoril. Like I have mentioned, there's various ashwagandhas available, really hard to figure out which one would work better for yo unless you try various ones to figure out what works out best.
 
xhrr said:
He basically just answered this. I'm playing worst case scenario here. If the extracts are quality as mentioned then it should be good to go.

I can't answer the question you want because the extracts and percentages are everything. Forskolin at 10% is going to need to be dosed around 500mg to hit the 50 mg most people and myself shoot for. Ashwaganda I usually dose around 500mg or slightly more when using Sensoril or KSM-66. At that dosage I enjoyed the effects Right there comes out to 1000 mg. OLE is going to depend because like I said I don't know the extract. If its super low you are going to need more mg to hit a nice dose of oleuropein. You can't just say extracts aside cause they play a huge part in assessing the correct dosage and how many mg it will take to hit that dosage. Forskolin is the best example of this as I alluded to.
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What's a nice dose of oleuropein?
 
Here's the thing that makes me on the fence....
Forget the whole CEO got caught with steroids and was on probation thing as there's been a lot of CEOs in trouble for the similar.
Scratch the whole 1,3 thing off the like cause a lot of companies used it and that can be drilled down to the individual user who abused the product.
I've seen versa still being sold, but the whole Oxy pro deal was kind of alarming. Maybe the people abused the product but if that was the case it was a lot that did. It wasn't just cases in Hawaii either, there was one from Ohio that I recall & they still are not 100% sure what caused the issues.
Who can you turn to for answers?
 
AaronJP1 said:
Here's the thing that makes me on the fence....
Forget the whole CEO got caught with steroids and was on probation thing as there's been a lot of CEOs in trouble for the similar.
Scratch the whole 1,3 thing off the like cause a lot of companies used it and that can be drilled down to the individual user who abused the product.
I've seen versa still being sold, but the whole Oxy pro deal was kind of alarming. Maybe the people abused the product but if that was the case it was a lot that did. It wasn't just cases in Hawaii either, there was one from Ohio that I recall & they still are not 100% sure what caused the issues.
Who can you turn to for answers?
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So, forget the two things purus labs also did (steroids, dmaa) and only hold the one you didn't do against them? Funny.
 
De__eB said:
So, forget the two things purus labs also did (steroids, dmaa) and only hold the one you didn't do against them? Funny.
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Yeah... That's what was stated in the paragraph. That I was holding it against them. Re-read.
 
De__eB said:
Just seemed like a (not so?) thinly veiled dig at their trustworthiness apologies if I read it wrong ;)
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I think SNS had something like this too?
I could be wrong.

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