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John kiefer "carb backloading"

todd muelheim said:
Hahaha they really do suck. They're like gruel. Idk why people over complicate CBL. Kiefer's ebook spells it out so simply and clearly.
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I do know some guys using them in their backload. I can't understand it either. I always felt like throwing up in the morning when I used to follow a typical BB diet. They made me as bloated as a pig.
 
Thanks for all the tips guys. I'm not a huge fun of oats also, but i think mixing them with honey low fat milk and berry's would be a good option, especially if you are cutting and you want to eat lower calories
 
teras said:
Thanks for all the tips guys. I'm not a huge fun of oats also, but i think mixing them with honey low fat milk and berry's would be a good option, especially if you are cutting and you want to eat lower calories
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I haven't read this whole thread but if you're trying to do CBL you should stop and reevaluate.
 
teras said:
Thanks for all the tips guys. I'm not a huge fun of oats also, but i think mixing them with honey low fat milk and berry's would be a good option, especially if you are cutting and you want to eat lower calories
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Oats, honey, milk and berry's would be on the higher end of kcals. Again depends on amounts but honey is a carb that racks up kcals fast
Potatoes would be a better bet, strawberries, veggies for lower carbs and satiety
 
Cool discussion on CBL


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Insulin sensitivity HAS to play a factor. I dont eat anywhere near enough and my stomach has gotten bigger while my strength has slightly decreased. I get about 180-200g protein a day, but the rest of my macros consistently fall short. No sugar. I eat rice and whole grains for the little carbs i eat. Im still skinny fat, and always have been.
 
The Solution said:
Fructose is fine
you would need to eat a boatload of fructose to ever fill liver stores.
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Liver glycogen roughly accounts for 90-110 grams carbs in a well-nourished healthy adult, so IMO your claim is wrong to some extent, or at least it is for me. Leaving aside the fact that liver glycogen will never be completely emptied under normal conditions, I would easily be able to eat 10 pancakes, a few donuts, two cups B&J's and some chocolate. And all of that within a single backload evening. Although I'd never do that myself, I'm quite sure the amount of fructose in those foods certainly breaks the above mentioned glycogen limit.
 
MaXopA said:
Liver glycogen roughly accounts for 90-110 grams carbs in a well-nourished healthy adult, so IMO your claim is wrong to some extent, or at least it is for me. Leaving aside the fact that liver glycogen will never be completely emptied under normal conditions, I would easily be able to eat 10 pancakes, a few donuts, two cups B&J's and some chocolate. And all of that within a single backload evening. Although I'd never do that myself, I'm quite sure the amount of fructose in those foods certainly breaks the above mentioned glycogen limit.
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You're all right my man. Thumbs up.
 
What's wrong with oats exactly? Not enough of an insulin response, or people just hating on the taste? I know CBL doesn't really advocate their use, but well regarded otherwise aren't they, if they don't bloat you of course?
 
MaXopA said:
Liver glycogen roughly accounts for 90-110 grams carbs in a well-nourished healthy adult, so IMO your claim is wrong to some extent, or at least it is for me. Leaving aside the fact that liver glycogen will never be completely emptied under normal conditions, I would easily be able to eat 10 pancakes, a few donuts, two cups B&J's and some chocolate. And all of that within a single backload evening. Although I'd never do that myself, I'm quite sure the amount of fructose in those foods certainly breaks the above mentioned glycogen limit.
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90-110g of carbs from fructose is a LOT of carbs dude
that is about 4 full banana's
I can guarentee you that you will NEVER eat that much in a refeed my man.

Like you even said yourself "You would never do that" so why are you worrying about it, and i doubt that your backload would allow you that much fat given your backload if you are really "Tracking" your calories.

Eating whatever you want is great, but will it result in optimal results? Hell no.
 
Johnston said:
What's wrong with oats exactly? Not enough of an insulin response, or people just hating on the taste? I know CBL doesn't really advocate their use, but well regarded otherwise aren't they, if they don't bloat you of course?
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Nothing wrong with oats
I just personally dont enjoy them.
eat away.

CBL you can use their use, why would you neglect them if you enjoy them?
 
SauceMonkey22 said:
my personal go to for the cbl:

brown rice
proats
ezekial toast with walden farms syrup and banana on top
fiber one choco cereal --> maybe the only cereal i like now
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More offseason:
Cereal, Pancakes (Protein Pancakes), Pretzels, Honey, Banana's, Pasta, Trail mix, Granola, Rice

More pre-contest closer to stage:
Potatoes, Veggies, Strawberries, Blueberries, Low-Carb Bread/Rolls,Yogurts
 
SauceMonkey22 said:
you ever try Nature's Harvest Lite Multi-Grain bread? One slice is 40 cals, I've had a half loaf in one sitting of toast, phenomenal lol
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I use a similar kind that is from my grocery store (Wegmans) which is a low-carb italian toast
a bit higher in carbs/calories, but a bit denser and better for french toast and bread pudding

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I just got this book, read through most of it and read through most of the thread (also used the search function! :lol: )

I have a few questions though (and they're more for clarification, so pardon my ignorance)
-The basic laws of thermodynamics will always apply and thus Carb Backloading is still going to depend on energy in vs. energy out.

-The first 10-14 days are keto?

-After the keto period, we transition into "carb-backloading?"

-Off days are keto/IF?

-If utilizing an every-other-day training approach and training in the morning, "off days" are considered carb days, and training days would then be considered "keto" days? This would mean if training monday morning, most of sunday's meals are p+f, then sunday night start slamming down carbs. Train fasted monday morning. Then have a small post workout shake with high GI carbs (karbolyn) post workout and resume keto lifestyle till the following tuesday evening. How does this sound?

-If going for strength accumulation, set kcals to maintenance or 10% below on training days, and 20-25% below on non-training days?

-Adjust macros to 0.4*lb bodyweight for fat, then 1g/1lb lbm or bw for protein and rest for carbs on backloading days?

-On off days, a standard keto split of 60/35/5 would suffice?
 
The Engineer said:
I just got this book, read through most of it and read through most of the thread (also used the search function! :lol: )

I have a few questions though (and they're more for clarification, so pardon my ignorance)
-The basic laws of thermodynamics will always apply and thus Carb Backloading is still going to depend on energy in vs. energy out.
Yes
-The first 10-14 days are keto?
Yes
-After the keto period, we transition into "carb-backloading?"
Yes
-Off days are keto/IF?
Not necessarily IF as you can eat meals longer then a normal 8hr window, but yes, basically keto (<30g carbs from mostly veggies)
-If utilizing an every-other-day training approach and training in the morning, "off days" are considered carb days, and training days would then be considered "keto" days? This would mean if training monday morning, most of sunday's meals are p+f, then sunday night start slamming down carbs. Train fasted monday morning. Then have a small post workout shake with high GI carbs (karbolyn) post workout and resume keto lifestyle till the following tuesday evening. How does this sound?
This depends on your training. If you feel you need the carbs before your workout to train, eat them the night before. If not, he has a layout for training in the morning and then backloading the night of the training (way pwo) that you can follow. Realistically you could just eat carbs every night as long as you maintain the proper calorie deficit for your goals
-If going for strength accumulation, set kcals to maintenance or 10% below on training days, and 20-25% below on non-training days?
This depends on your goals, current bf, etc. Totally personal and trial and error
-Adjust macros to 0.4*lb bodyweight for fat, then 1g/1lb lbm or bw for protein and rest for carbs on backloading days?
You can really go as low with fat as you want as you'll make it up on your non-backloading days.
-On off days, a standard keto split of 60/35/5 would suffice?
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Keifer suggests a 1:1 p:f ratio for any non carb meals but that seems pretty excessive to me. I think this would suffice but it is again user dependent
 
The Solution

Thanks for all your contributions to this thread, you've answered quite a bit of details I didn't get from the book. I'm wondering, however, how many surplus kcals you do during bulking and how many deficit kcals you do during cutting. Do you personally do the standard 500(+/-) for bulk/cut 1 lb a week, respectively? Kiefer explicitly states that those over 15% BF will enjoy fat loss on density bulking but I don't think he goes into detail over what your surplus kcals should be? What are your thoughts on this? What would you recommend for someone density bulking and hoping for fat loss?
 
Just wanted to chime in with my results. I've been eating in a 250cal surplus and weighed ~220. I now remain ~220, and look better, even with eating a bowl of ice cream every single night.

Winning.
 
I've been eating about a 200kcal surplus on training days and doing a 700kcal deficit on off/hiit-days and have had the same type of results (staying at 190 but obvs losing fat). Only really distinguishable differences are that I've been doing MI40s diet which is similar to CBL except for about ~20% daily carbs 3 hours pre-workout and the remaining (low-GI being the other difference) consumed PWO.

I'm currently on day 4 of the prep phase and have shed quite a bit of water. Thinking about cutting my prep-phase to just 7 or 8 days because I'm eager to jump into CBL and feel that since I've been doing something similar my body is getting fat adapted relatively quickly.
 
trem said:
The Solution

Thanks for all your contributions to this thread, you've answered quite a bit of details I didn't get from the book. I'm wondering, however, how many surplus kcals you do during bulking and how many deficit kcals you do during cutting. Do you personally do the standard 500(+/-) for bulk/cut 1 lb a week, respectively? Kiefer explicitly states that those over 15% BF will enjoy fat loss on density bulking but I don't think he goes into detail over what your surplus kcals should be? What are your thoughts on this? What would you recommend for someone density bulking and hoping for fat loss?
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Surplus depends on indivudal, some can get away with more than 500, some cannot
That is trial/experience.
 
It's interesting that he advocates against intra workout BCAAs for AM fasted trading, with the logic being that leucine triggers an insulin response thus halting fat loss.

From what I've read, this insulin response is acute and no where near as strong as the insulin spike we're striving for in the backload and merely serves to start MPS -which we would want in a fasted state to stop any potential catabolism. He also mentions that BCAAs alert the body to start using liver glycogen add fuel rather than fat.

Two questions then: 1. if starting with the 10 day keto phase, how detrimental to the program is it if we consumed BCAAs/EAAs intra workout? Plus isn't leucine ketogenic? 2. Kiefer suggests to drink leucine with your backload meals. Why couldn't we just do a BCAA drink?
 
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Look at the third article. Leucine rich foods such as dairy and meat are insulinogenic and if that's what we're eating during our keto/low carb days then the whole idea that insulin halts fat loss has to be modified.
 
If you think taking BCAA's will cause you to not lose fat your going full potato
Count the calories in yoru total intake for the day and your fine.

a lot of his perspectives/intake is very skewed. You dont need to do a 10 day keto phase, you could still Carb Backload by eating carbs everyday just shift them towards the end of the day and have more P+F or lower carb meals earlier in the day.

Sure his own perspective on what may work for "Him" or his own therories that he goes by, but in the end with more modern research it kind of debunks a lot of what he writes and says. Adjust it to suit you and your diet.

BCAA's are optimal for fasted training and wont halt fatloss if you are in a caloric deficit at the end of the day.
 
The Solution said:
a lot of his perspectives/intake is very skewed. You dont need to do a 10 day keto phase, you could still Carb Backload by eating carbs everyday just shift them towards the end of the day and have more P+F or lower carb meals earlier in the day.
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Glad you said this because that is what I did when I started a few months ago and everything I read said it was needed to do "properly". I proceeded to lose fat and keep muscle so I never understood the purpose.
 
kisaj said:
Glad you said this because that is what I did when I started a few months ago and everything I read said it was needed to do "properly". I proceeded to lose fat and keep muscle so I never understood the purpose.
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Same. I did 3 days no-carb then started the backload. No issues at all.
 
kisaj said:
Glad you said this because that is what I did when I started a few months ago and everything I read said it was needed to do "properly". I proceeded to lose fat and keep muscle so I never understood the purpose.
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Yup
my carbs never drop below 200g everyday while cutting, i just shift them more towards the night.
 
Some thoughts:

-Did a week of Keto (I've been playing around with keto since late feb so my body is fat adapted)
-Yesterday (4/22) backloaded with the following a 2 caps of recompadrol:
  • One full bagel One russet potato with skins Chicken breast Cinnabon Cereal with skim milk
  • 3-4 small bowls of chex mix
 
Some thoughts:

-Did a week of Keto (I've been playing around with keto since late feb so my body is fat adapted)
-Yesterday (4/22) backloaded with the following and 400mg of chlorogenic acid, 1 cap ap, 500mg gymnema sylvestre, 500mg HCA, 300mg na-r-ala and 1000mg agamtine.
  • One full bagel
  • 3-4 small bowls of chex mix
  • One russet potato with skins (no butter or oil)
  • Chicken breast
  • Cinnabon Cereal with skim milk

Felt super bloated after this. I definitely overdid it. Then two hours later I grabbed a handful of mini oreos. Slept for nearly 7 hours and woke up just a little less bloated.

This morning I trained fasted with ArA, GMS, LCLT, Caffeine, agmatine, and 300mg na-r-ala with no aminos and felt terrible. No energy. Nada.

I'm training again thursday morning, so I'm going to tone it down for the wednesday night back load and try it without a GDA,

Thoughts? Any help would be appreciated.

(crap. double posted)
 
The Engineer said:
Some thoughts: -Did a week of Keto (I've been playing around with keto since late feb so my body is fat adapted) -Yesterday (4/22) backloaded with the following and 400mg of chlorogenic acid, 1 cap ap, 500mg gymnema sylvestre, 500mg HCA, 300mg na-r-ala and 1000mg agamtine. [*]One full bagel [*]3-4 small bowls of chex mix [*]One russet potato with skins (no butter or oil) [*]Chicken breast [*]Cinnabon Cereal with skim milk Felt super bloated after this. I definitely overdid it. Then two hours later I grabbed a handful of mini oreos. Slept for nearly 7 hours and woke up just a little less bloated. This morning I trained fasted with ArA, GMS, LCLT, Caffeine, agmatine, and 300mg na-r-ala with no aminos and felt terrible. No energy. Nada. I'm training again thursday morning, so I'm going to tone it down for the wednesday night back load and try it without a GDA, Thoughts? Any help would be appreciated. (crap. double posted)
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I think you're on the right track with the trial and error. Backloading, GDAs and fasted training are three very individualized variables. Personally, I have had spans of weeks where I train fasted and feel incredible. Fast forward a bit and I'm so lethargic while training fasted that I can barely finish a workout. See what happens if you just use the ArA stack, caff and ag preworkout for a few days. GL.
 
You dont need to do keto for a week and backload
again you can use carbs everyday and eat them later in the day (hence backloading)
If you felt bloated/awful than tone down the amount of carbs your intake and listen to your body
try different sources of carbs
and dont go grabbing for oreos in the middle of the night :)
 
The Solution said:
You dont need to do keto for a week and backload
again you can use carbs everyday and eat them later in the day (hence backloading)
If you felt bloated/awful than tone down the amount of carbs your intake and listen to your body
try different sources of carbs
and dont go grabbing for oreos in the middle of the night :)
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Haha will do.

According to the biorhythm diet you posted in the other thread, I'm trying to keep fats to a min at night (even though kiefer says it's fine if there are fats), but it's just hard finding insulinogenic carbs without much fat content.
 
The Engineer said:
Haha will do.

According to the biorhythm diet you posted in the other thread, I'm trying to keep fats to a min at night (even though kiefer says it's fine if there are fats), but it's just hard finding insulinogenic carbs without much fat content.
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If your meeting your protein/fat/carb quota if you decide to have a whole egg at night its fine
hit your macros
allot your meal frequency and macro division based off personal preference

none of these are magical just a different way to allot your calories.
Your surplus/deficit is what reigns supreme.
 
The Solution said:
If your meeting your protein/fat/carb quota if you decide to have a whole egg at night its fine
hit your macros
allot your meal frequency and macro division based off personal preference

none of these are magical just a different way to allot your calories.
Your surplus/deficit is what reigns supreme.
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Exactly what I'm doing.

I didn't measure last night, but for the next backload I will. On off days it's just easier for me to follow a keto-type diet.

I'm going to keep my daily fats at 63 grams (0.4*bw) on backload days and portion out 15-20 for backloading. Plus I think I'll just look up low fat cookie recipes rather than rely on Nabisco lol
 
I had a similar experience when I first tried this out as well. I've since changed up my schedule so that it looks like this:
Train 3-4p
Dinner around 6p - 175g carbs from brown rice and oats
Pre bed meal around 9p - cottage cheese and protein powder.

I've felt much better since moving all my carbs to the first PWO meal and none with the pre-bed.
 
booneman77 said:
I had a similar experience when I first tried this out as well. I've since changed up my schedule so that it looks like this:
Train 3-4p
Dinner around 6p - 175g carbs from brown rice and oats
Pre bed meal around 9p - cottage cheese and protein powder.

I've felt much better since moving all my carbs to the first PWO meal and none with the pre-bed.
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So you only keep it low glycemic/slow digesting carbs?
 
The Engineer said:
So you only keep it low glycemic/slow digesting carbs?
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Yep. I've always had better results other times of the day with these so that's what I went with. Once I'm not being cautious with my diet in the fall I'll prob experiment with more high glycemic and "junk food" types.
 
booneman77 said:
Yep. I've always had better results other times of the day with these so that's what I went with. Once I'm not being cautious with my diet in the fall I'll prob experiment with more high glycemic and "junk food" types.
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175g of carbs from oats
thats why your bloated to all hell
good lord fiber overload!
 
The Solution said:
175g of carbs from oats thats why your bloated to all hell good lord fiber overload!
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1c oats 2c brown rice and a banana has been having me feel fine. Timing seems to be the key cuz that same breakdown spread over two meals had me waking up bloated and soft
 
The Engineer said:
This morning I trained fasted with ArA, GMS, LCLT, Caffeine, agmatine, and 300mg na-r-ala with no aminos and felt terrible. No energy. Nada.

I'm training again thursday morning, so I'm going to tone it down for the wednesday night back load and try it without a GDA,
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As you've said, take out the GDA. You don't want to be having that fasted before you workout. That won't lead to good things.
 
The Solution said:
175g of carbs from oats
thats why your bloated to all hell
good lord fiber overload!
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Johnston said:
As you've said, take out the GDA. You don't want to be having that fasted before you workout. That won't lead to good things.
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Well when I was doing CKD, I'd supplement with Na-R-ALA post CKD refeed/pre workout and felt great. But I'm going to rule out the GDA all together, both from the backload and the pre workout.

A little off topic, does HCA (garcinia cambogia) make anyone bloated? And is there any merit to using ingredients such as garcinia cambogia or gymnema sylvestre pre backload? I know HCA inhibits pancreatic alpha-amylase, thus acting somewhat as a carb-blocker reducing the amount of carbs absorbed; while gymnema sylvestre can be used to stimulate insulin secretion. But this information was based on a study on type-2 diabetics, so logically it should work even better in non-type-2s? So out of the two, we'd want more insulin secretion to get the most out of our backload?
 
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