DerickVonD
Well-known member
I can do front squat completely fine, but when I do back squats I always have knee pain. I am doing box squats and boxed front squats.
I can front squat without knee pain, but not back squat.
- Thread starter DerickVonD
- Start date
superbeast668
Well-known member
Get a vid. Willing to bet you're leaning pretty far forward on the back squat but there's not much most can do other than offer conjecture.
DerickVonD
Well-known member
I'll try and take a video now and upload it, keep in mind I have a very crappy camera.
DerickVonD
Well-known member
Invalid Link Removed
superbeast668
Well-known member
You weren't kidding... Very difficult to see shin position... I'm gonna bow out. What I mentioned previously is the biggest culprit I know for knee pain. Even on a hack if I put my feet low and my knees get past my toes I do get a bit of pain. Here's a question, does it hurt on a smith machine?
DerickVonD
Well-known member
I workout at home, so I don't have access to a smith machine. I can try another video at a lower angle maybe.
DerickVonD
Well-known member
Nevermind. There is no way I can record it by myself.
Sean1332
Legend
Well, we can't see your knees!!
What I did notice is:
Your unrack sucks. You "good morning" it out of the rack. Get your hips underneath you, hamstring tight, feet torqued in, and squat it up to unrack it.
Now, once you walk it out, you don't even acquire any bracing before you initiate the squat. The second you get your last foot walked out, you continue into the squat. I'm not saying to take your sweet time and and waste energy, but walk it out, set your feet, squeeze your glutes and brace your core to maintain a braced neutral spine. Then break at the hips, sit down and back, while either "spreading the floor" with your feet, or "screwing your feet into the ground. That will allow your to gain some tension, your hips open up, and your knees move outwards, in return-giving you a more perpendicular shin angle (which may be the culprit to your knee issues)
Then when you lock out you're squat, fully lock it out, just don't stand up and go directly into the rack. Squeeze your glutes and finish it off. Your lower back will feel better.
Also, tight muscles can contribute to knee pain as well. You should get a video of your front squat, too, so we can see what the differences are.
What kind of shoes do you wear? Why the box?
And if front squatting doesn't hurt, and you're not worried about a competition squat, then just continue front squatting if you can resolve the knee issue.
What I did notice is:
Your unrack sucks. You "good morning" it out of the rack. Get your hips underneath you, hamstring tight, feet torqued in, and squat it up to unrack it.
Now, once you walk it out, you don't even acquire any bracing before you initiate the squat. The second you get your last foot walked out, you continue into the squat. I'm not saying to take your sweet time and and waste energy, but walk it out, set your feet, squeeze your glutes and brace your core to maintain a braced neutral spine. Then break at the hips, sit down and back, while either "spreading the floor" with your feet, or "screwing your feet into the ground. That will allow your to gain some tension, your hips open up, and your knees move outwards, in return-giving you a more perpendicular shin angle (which may be the culprit to your knee issues)
Then when you lock out you're squat, fully lock it out, just don't stand up and go directly into the rack. Squeeze your glutes and finish it off. Your lower back will feel better.
Also, tight muscles can contribute to knee pain as well. You should get a video of your front squat, too, so we can see what the differences are.
What kind of shoes do you wear? Why the box?
And if front squatting doesn't hurt, and you're not worried about a competition squat, then just continue front squatting if you can resolve the knee issue.
DerickVonD
Well-known member
Yeah, I know. I tried to record my knees, but I can't get the angle right and right now no one else is here to help me. I'll upload a video later tonight of my front squat. The reason I started box squatting, is because when the weight gets heavier I have the habit of not squatting low enough.
superbeast668
Well-known member
I was hoping one of you power guys would jump in. Squat isn't one of my best lifts to explain. Need bench advice I got it but not squat. Glad to see you validate my shin angle theory though.
Sean1332
Legend
Shin angle is shoes are big. And everyone squats differently too, so it's ultimately up to the person to find what's "right"
Sean1332
Legend
Well, if it's too heavy in the hole at proper depth, sucks to say this, but the load may be too heavy then, considering that's the weakest part of the lift for a raw squatter.
And sounds good dude.
DerickVonD
Well-known member
Yeah I know, I lighted the weight as well, but without a guide even starting at light weight I seem to always want to do partial squats. I mean I like box squatting, so I'd like to continue to do them. Also maybe I should state, that I am flat footed and I don't wear any shoes while squatting.
reps4jesus
Well-known member
Try pushing your knees out, many people let knees cave in while rising. Keep your knees in line with your toes. Meaning if your toes are facing slightly out push your knees out also. Helped my knee pain a ton. Also fish oil and glucosamine with msm. Upped my doses
PaulBlack
Well-known member
Sean's good post as usual^.
Agree too, with almost rushing onto the box.
IMO, keep your form and speed to box the same no matter if it is just the bar, or max weight. Slow deliberate descending down to the box (no flopping onto it) and keep an arch, (up right, chest up, putting your balls on the box helps cement that arch in too. I don't rock "back" either. Then take that same form and just do it as a free squat. If a box squat does not hurt your knees, then the back squat should not either, IMO!?
Depending on your shoes and heels (that can make a dif on knee angles) and you need to get a good vid of the shins feet etc. to see where the shins track. They need to stay over the feet and not torque in or out.
I think this guy has been said to be pretty good at them, and I guess most importantly, his back squat looks almost exactly like this without the box...
Invalid Link Removed
Ignore the loads being used here, (as learning to squat is not about how much but how well and efficient you do it and he is also using a suit) but just watch as he has pretty much the same form (as if he were going to a box) but is doing a free squat...
Invalid Link Removed
asooneyeonig
Well-known member
to record your legs, put the camera on the ground please
KrisL
Active member
Took some still shots from the video using the plates as reference from start to "lockout."
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
I find that my knee pain is least when my feet are parallel to eachother (straight) and my knees push outward like they're tied together and I'm trying to pop the string. Foot position is, of course, very individual - I recommend experimenting. Do you use a different position in the bs than the fs? Also make sure you are 100% on your heels. Moving your weight forward (which, from the vid, looks like what's up) will put you up on the ball of your foot, causing knee pain.
This... you lean forward at the end of your squat. Hang out and enjoy the lockout a hot second, haha.
Front squats are pretty awesome by themselves. While back squats are great, if they're causing injury, you're not going to get far.
In that case, quit taking a nap on the box. Just barely grace it with your presence and leave. Lean back, give the box a butt-tap, and go. If the box is merely a reference point, there's no need to take a vacation on it. You're letting out all of your tension, which you need to get back out of the hole properly.
DerickVonD
Well-known member
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
I'll try and take videos of my shin position. Yes I put the camera on the ground, but it winds up being up too high, or too low. All I have is a 10 year old point and click camera to work with. No smart phone and no video camera. I'm not sure if I can even get shoes to train in. I wear an 11 1/2 4E and I am extremely flat footed(zero arch). It's impossible to find shoes with no support in them at that size. I'll have to learn to squat bare foot.
Invalid Link Removed
I'll try and take videos of my shin position. Yes I put the camera on the ground, but it winds up being up too high, or too low. All I have is a 10 year old point and click camera to work with. No smart phone and no video camera. I'm not sure if I can even get shoes to train in. I wear an 11 1/2 4E and I am extremely flat footed(zero arch). It's impossible to find shoes with no support in them at that size. I'll have to learn to squat bare foot.
mountainman33
Well-known member
The one thing I would ask, unless I missed it, what kind of knee pain do you experience? Is it front of knee (patellar tendon) or internal (meniscus, perhaps or one of the internal ligaments)? One knee or both knees? I've had patellar tendonitis in both knees since college from constant jump training, and in order for me to be able to perform squats w/o knee pain I have to thoroughly warm up, but I also need to start with light weight and a narrow stance, then I can start working to a wider stance with heavier weights. I also focus on a very slow descent before I drive up. These 3 strategies have allowed me to sqaut with virtually no knee pain. If I don't follow them then my knees ache during and for days after.
DerickVonD
Well-known member
Both knees, but only one knee at a time will hurt. Inside of the knee and in front, but usually not on the outside of the knee.
DerickVonD
Well-known member
Hmm, maybe I am focusing on going back to the seat rather than straight down. I think that may be the problem, or atleast part of the problem.
mountainman33
Well-known member
Do you have any previous injuries? How long has this been an issue?
DerickVonD
Well-known member
On and off. I injured my right knee twice to the point where it swelled.
mountainman33
Well-known member
What kind of injury. Details man....
DerickVonD
Well-known member
Impact. I hit my knee pretty hard while biking and the second time I hit the same knee doing stretches. Then in 2011 I felt something pull in the same knee and to this day if I lay on my back sometimes my knee will get real stiff. I talked to two different doctors and they kept saying inflammation. It might be time to get an MRI. Like I said though no pain when front squatting and on the back squat I still get pain in the other knee as well, so I still think it's a form issue. In fact my left knee(the one that I didn't injury in the past) has been hurting more than the right knee when I squat.
DerickVonD
Well-known member
New video. I decided to not use the squat box seat and focus on squatting down in a straight line, rather than back to the seat. Invalid Link Removed
asooneyeonig
Well-known member
That was a great angle and to me I see the issue.
Your feet are to far externally rotated. This causes excessive pronation of the foot, therefore rotating the lower leg internally and collapsing the structure all the way up the hips. This forces one to squat on top of their legs instead of between them.
Point your feet more forward and push your knees out. This external rotation will force more supination of the foot and allow easier movement of the knees outward and allow you to squat between the legs and allow it to be more of a hip dominant movement instead of a knee dominant movement
Your feet are to far externally rotated. This causes excessive pronation of the foot, therefore rotating the lower leg internally and collapsing the structure all the way up the hips. This forces one to squat on top of their legs instead of between them.
Point your feet more forward and push your knees out. This external rotation will force more supination of the foot and allow easier movement of the knees outward and allow you to squat between the legs and allow it to be more of a hip dominant movement instead of a knee dominant movement
PaulBlack
Well-known member
Something to remember too is, (for anyone really) if one is going to post form vids, I agree with the schools, that it is probably best to use the working weight/loads you will be using after your W/U's, since the form you most likely want critiqued is going to be the heavier work form that needs to be done and kept on your "working sets" and not just a light warm up or empty bar.
Just sayin'
Just sayin'
DerickVonD
Well-known member
Well yesterday I was really sore from squatting already, that's why I only used and empty bar.
PaulBlack
Well-known member
Not a problem guy and I feel your DOMS. I was speaking generally and to the masses actually, since some people will post vids and ask to have their form looked at but then the form they post and the form they use on work sets, might be different. And you want the form on the work sets or regular heavy stuff, to be looked at and where you may need tweaking, so as to not get banged up or have to fix a bad habit later on.
DerickVonD
Well-known member
Latest form. Invalid Link Removed My foot position looks the same, however that is the only comfortable position for my feet. My feet are angled at the angle when I walk. I really think the box squatting messed up my form, since I was going back instead of straight down. Also the pain was only when coming back up, never when squatting down.
asooneyeonig
Well-known member
OMG that looks painful! point those feet forward and push your knees out.
check out this link and watch a bunch of the vids: Invalid Link Removed
also look at these: Invalid Link Removed
if that is the way you walk things are way out of whack. that website should be your bible for a while to fix it.
check out this link and watch a bunch of the vids: Invalid Link Removed
also look at these: Invalid Link Removed
if that is the way you walk things are way out of whack. that website should be your bible for a while to fix it.
PaulBlack
Well-known member
Yeah, I don't want to overdo the info either, but it looks like a few form glitches, that by learning and doing a few things to get a feel for "dropping your torso between the legs" will help, as it appears you are folding like a Z. Which, I used to do that myself. It just takes some practice and a bit of flexibility.
Things that may give you an idea towards better or standard form, might be goblet squats and or squatting up against a wall. There are quite a few vids, some great, some not so great.
I know Dan John wrote a few articles on squat form and using the act of holding a goblet below your chin, to get used to dropping your torso between the legs.
Things that may give you an idea towards better or standard form, might be goblet squats and or squatting up against a wall. There are quite a few vids, some great, some not so great.
I know Dan John wrote a few articles on squat form and using the act of holding a goblet below your chin, to get used to dropping your torso between the legs.
KrisL
Active member
Here's a photo of a guy in the bottom of a good front squat next to you in your bottom position.
Invalid Link Removed Invalid Link Removed
You need to adjust youself so you can get into the full squat position - even without a bar. Until you do so, you will have no idea what foot position is actually comfortable. It's a natural position you should be able to maintain for a long time.
Invalid Link Removed Invalid Link Removed
You need to adjust youself so you can get into the full squat position - even without a bar. Until you do so, you will have no idea what foot position is actually comfortable. It's a natural position you should be able to maintain for a long time.
asooneyeonig
Well-known member
Invalid Link Removed
dan john and how to squat. well, how to do a lot of things but that vid is still awesome. its how i learned to finally squat properly. well at least start to, lol.
compudog
Well-known member
That's my recommendation as well; goblet squats. The OP needs to learn how to squat to a proper depth, which means, knees out and ass on the floor.
asooneyeonig
Well-known member
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
BAM!!
Invalid Link Removed
BAM!!
PaulBlack
Well-known member
DerickVonD
Well-known member
Is this an improvement at all? Invalid Link Removed
As I stated previously I am flat footed, so my feet angle is probably different than for most people.
As I stated previously I am flat footed, so my feet angle is probably different than for most people.
herderdude
Well-known member
IIRC, Sean is flat footed and he squats with his feet forward. Do your mobilitywod homework and study up on how he gets the job done and you'll benefit. Then again, all but fifteen or so guys in the country are striving to squat more like he does.
EDIT: Anything over a 45 degree outward angle and you're sacrificing balance and stability. I personally like to set up at about 15 degrees from dead ahead, unless I'm doing wide stance box squats with a lot of sit-back, then I'm a little more than 30 degrees of external rotation. Screwing your feet into the ground will give you the best arch you're anatomically capable of.
EDIT: Anything over a 45 degree outward angle and you're sacrificing balance and stability. I personally like to set up at about 15 degrees from dead ahead, unless I'm doing wide stance box squats with a lot of sit-back, then I'm a little more than 30 degrees of external rotation. Screwing your feet into the ground will give you the best arch you're anatomically capable of.
Sean1332
Legend
Word, I'm flat footed like The Dude said. I'll squat wide with my toes out, or I'll squat moderate (like you) with toes forward(ish)
I vote that you reciprocate those pics I posted and find your groove. Secondedededed what The Dude, Paul, and Ozzie have for ya.
Do you always squat barefoot?
I vote that you reciprocate those pics I posted and find your groove. Secondedededed what The Dude, Paul, and Ozzie have for ya.
Do you always squat barefoot?
DerickVonD
Well-known member
Yes I can't squat otherwise. I mean I can, but any shoes I wear will have some sort of foam support. It's pretty hard to find chuck taylors in a 4E.
KrisL
Active member
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link RemovedInvalid Link Removed
I'm also flat-footed. You're rolling on to the outside of your feet. Leave the toes where they are, kick the heels out an inch or two to make the feet closer to parallel, perhaps. Since you're talking footwear, surely you have some dress shoes. Good enough for old time strongmen, good enough for you.
What's also going to help you is to either ditch or lower those catch bars. You have them placed so high that if you divebomb into a full squat, you'll knock yourself out with the bar.
DerickVonD
Well-known member
These are the only shoes I own. Invalid Link Removed There is no way I am squeezing my feet in dress shoes. Dress shoes are cut so narrow it hurts just to put my feet in them and I don't have the money for $200 wide dress shoes. So, barefoot is what I'll have to do. What do you mean kick the heels out?
PaulBlack
Well-known member
Yeah, good photo leads ^ and what about viding or trying some goblet squats, no weight to get more of a feel for dropping your torso down thru your legs?
As far as flat footed or not, I cannot see that making much of a difference on where your ankles, knees, hips, low back, chest relate to one another in improving your flexibility and form!?
compudog
Well-known member
I'll third (fourth?) that. Goblet squats are IMO the best way to learn to squat properly. A moderate weight (40 lb for me) is sufficient to provide enough counterbalance so the squatter's torso stays nicely upright. Once the form is good with goblets (knees out ass on the floor) then the squatter can load some weight on the movement with front squats.
Also, being flat footed shouldn't make any difference, and shoes don't matter that much either. I use Vibram 5 fingers and they work just fine. I would do it barefoot if my gym allowed it but they don't.