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Number 10 said:
T'bol works very well with test, and would be ideal for what you are looking for. If budget is an issue, as Jbry said var works well with T'bol in this stack. If it were me and depending on how long you're cycling for, I'd run the following: Prop 1 - 8 T'bol 1 - 6 Var 4 - 9 PCT - 10+ Never used DMZ though.
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Well I would be getting a Tbol/Var mixture. I just heard great things about dmz. Not so much a money issue as a weight issue. I don't wanna use the phrase "too muscly" or anything like that but I went from 185-225 in my 6 weeks with test so I'm trying to stay at my current weight. That's more of a diet thing though.
You think I could get away with pinning prop into quads with slin pins? Other thing is I'm Very estro sensitive, or Atleast got gyno at the end of my last cycle which was 20 weeks, and don't really trust RCs or even online pharma cause I've gotten burned by both, so I was thinking of doing even a lower prop dose like 75 EOD to keep from getting estro sides.
 
DreamWeaver said:
Tbol is a freaking good compound. My baseline diet had me losing a pound a week then I added the tbol and was up 6 lbs by week 4 and I had dropped around 5 lbs of fat. The workouts are fuggin insane and really good strength increases. There is no ph I could compare it too. The gains are extremely high quality and have you looking much harder and more vascular. Very low on sides as well as a matter of fact I can't think of any right off. I don't tend to shut down much as I use plenty of HCG.
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Hdrol IS the ph.
 
Number 10 said:
T'bol works very well with test, and would be ideal for what you are looking for. If budget is an issue, as Jbry said var works well with T'bol in this stack. If it were me and depending on how long you're cycling for, I'd run the following:

Prop 1 - 8
T'bol 1 - 6
Var 4 - 9
PCT - 10+

Never used DMZ though.
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So does Hdrol. I did it last summer with 10lb gains and a loss of belly fat. Low on sides other than estrogen flaring up slightly. Not hard to control though.

I'm doin another run of hdrol in a week or so with TRT. Works great!
 
hurdlemaker said:
Hdrol does not equal Tbol, Hdrol is for people that can't acquire Tbol haha
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No one said it equals. But part of it converts to Tbol and it is highly anabolic and low androgenic much like TBol. They share a similar profile.

I doubt tbol delivers significantly better in realms of dropping fat and packing on muscle. It probably hits about the same. For seasoned lifters, u aint getting much more than 10-15lbs of mass on ANY compound regardless unless ur runnin slin with it.

75mg of HD for 6 weeks w/ Test is fantastic. You see, most TBol users run it with Test since ita AAS and has been in the black for years.

Most folks run Hdrol without Test since it is OTC. So just readin the logs here isnt tellin the true story.

But I've run Hdrol with Test and there hasnt been a better cycle I've experienced yet outside of Test/EQ/Mast. It does everything with T that u guys are sayin about Tbol.

But u are right, if ya cant get tbol, hdol is the second best option.
 
fueledpassion said:
So does Hdrol. I did it last summer with 10lb gains and a loss of belly fat. Low on sides other than estrogen flaring up slightly. Not hard to control though. I'm doin another run of hdrol in a week or so with TRT. Works great!
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Yeah, H'Drol converts to T'bol I think. Although at what rate I don't know. I'm sure in read somewhere that T'bol and test work synergistically because T'bol binds to SHGB raising free test levels.

In fact, did we not have this chat on a different thread a few months ago?
 
Number 10 said:
Yeah, H'Drol converts to T'bol I think. Although at what rate I don't know. I'm sure in read somewhere that T'bol and test work synergistically because T'bol binds to SHGB raising free test levels.

In fact, did we not have this chat on a different thread a few months ago?
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Yes. Hdrol worked freggin well with TRT. Better than SD & better than Msten/DMZ.
 
fueledpassion said:
No one said it equals. But part of it converts to Tbol and it is highly anabolic and low androgenic much like TBol. They share a similar profile. I doubt tbol delivers significantly better in realms of dropping fat and packing on muscle. It probably hits about the same. For seasoned lifters, u aint getting much more than 10-15lbs of mass on ANY compound regardless unless ur runnin slin with it. 75mg of HD for 6 weeks w/ Test is fantastic. You see, most TBol users run it with Test since ita AAS and has been in the black for years. Most folks run Hdrol without Test since it is OTC. But I've run Hdrol with Test and there hasnt been a better cycle I've experienced yet outside of Test/EQ/Mast. It does everything with T that u guys are sayin about Tbol.
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you should try out some Tbol sometime. I've ran Hdrol as well as Tbol alone, Tbol with var, Tbol with test prop and tren ace. They do share a similar profile but I'm not sure about the conversion, I think that may have been more a myth or rumor. The 10-15lbs mark for a cycle ur referring to? What cycle length are u talking? Just six weeks? I've gained over 15lbs on multiple 12 week cycles. I've never touched slin or gh. Any 6 week cycle I've ever ran was to tighten up tho, I would never go for size with that short of a cycle.
 
SquatsAndOats said:
Well I would be getting a Tbol/Var mixture. I just heard great things about dmz. Not so much a money issue as a weight issue. I don't wanna use the phrase "too muscly" or anything like that but I went from 185-225 in my 6 weeks with test so I'm trying to stay at my current weight. That's more of a diet thing though. You think I could get away with pinning prop into quads with slin pins? Other thing is I'm Very estro sensitive, or Atleast got gyno at the end of my last cycle which was 20 weeks, and don't really trust RCs or even online pharma cause I've gotten burned by both, so I was thinking of doing even a lower prop dose like 75 EOD to keep from getting estro sides.
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If that's your worry are you not better going for something much much drier? Winny or mast maybe?

Keeping the test at 75mg EOD if you're prone, fair enough. That'll equate to around 225mg test ignoring ester weight? So probably around HRT levels. That said, I have a broscience theory that gyno isn't helped by fluctuating levels, so pinning ED might help that.

I wouldn't have thought you could get it through a slin pin; I use 23G to pin with prop and sometimes that's tough going. Trying with 25G that arrived an hour ago tonight so will let you know how easy the oil goes through. Into quads is fine though, I use a 23G 1.25" and it works fine.
 
jbryand101b said:
Yea, not even going to read it, and just say its incorrect. when it comes to chlorodehrdomethylandrostenediol (cdma for short) you will never find any in vivo data for conversion numbers, as its impossible to determine/estimate. When you read someone saying a percentage converts to bla bla bla, they're just regurgitating incorrectly interpreted in vitro data from Patrick Arnold's research on 4-androstenediol. Diols are able to bind with and interact with the androgen receptor, though not as strongly as their 3-ketone counterparts.
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^this
 
hurdlemaker said:
you should try out some Tbol sometime. I've ran Hdrol as well as Tbol alone, Tbol with var, Tbol with test prop and tren ace. They do share a similar profile but I'm not sure about the conversion, I think that may have been more a myth or rumor. The 10-15lbs mark for a cycle ur referring to? What cycle length are u talking? Just six weeks? I've gained over 15lbs on multiple 12 week cycles. I've never touched slin or gh. Any 6 week cycle I've ever ran was to tighten up tho, I would never go for size with that short of a cycle.
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Was that Tbol/var combined without test? How was that. Considering that with super dmz 1-4 and Tbol with var weeks 3-8
 
Number 10 said:
If that's your worry are you not better going for something much much drier? Winny or mast maybe? Keeping the test at 75mg EOD if you're prone, fair enough. That'll equate to around 225mg test ignoring ester weight? So probably around HRT levels. That said, I have a broscience theory that gyno isn't helped by fluctuating levels, so pinning ED might help that. I wouldn't have thought you could get it through a slin pin; I use 23G to pin with prop and sometimes that's tough going. Trying with 25G that arrived an hour ago tonight so will let you know how easy the oil goes through. Into quads is fine though, I use a 23G 1.25" and it works fine.
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From what I I've read Tbol and var don't aromatize unless I'm clearly missing something, and they're pretty dry already. Not a fan of winny I didn't notice much on it, and running super dmz then winny seems liked it'd be worse on my liver then super dmz followed by Tbol/var. Who knows I may be getting Tbol/winny without knowing it haha. "Trust your source"
 
SquatsAndOats said:
Was that Tbol/var combined without test? How was that. Considering that with super dmz 1-4 and Tbol with var weeks 3-8
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yes I did it without test. Tbol is basically dbol minus bloat, and dbol is basically oral test. My best friend ran the same cycle before also, here were his results as well

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hurdlemaker said:
yes I did it without test. Tbol is basically dbol minus bloat, and dbol is basically oral test. My best friend ran the same cycle before also, here were his results as well <img src="http://anabolicminds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=98413"/>
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Looks pretty good. I think I'm gonna end up doing that then with super dmz 1-4 and Tbol/var week 3-8.
 
I wouldn't equate tbol to dbol. I think that dbol is more like var. it's not as potent mg for mg as dbol and it's very expensive so you'd need a lot to get significant mass gain in my experience. IME 100 mg of tbol would be needed to get the same results as 40 of dbol if you're running test and arimidex.

Honestly IMO there's not overly much difference between tbol and anavar.

Hdrol is ok, I tend to prefer dmz or mechabol.

I don't think that oral AAS are automatically better than DS. That classification is arbitrary in many cases. Different compounds are better for specific situations. I have access to pharmaceutical grade versions of all compounds and in some situations I'd still rather run the DS than oral AAS. IME there aren't very comparable oral AAS to SD/dmz that give big dry gains. Var/tbol are both more like epi (but somewhat more effective for most ppl) where adrol/tbol are wetter.
 
SquatsAndOats said:
From what I I've read Tbol and var don't aromatize unless I'm clearly missing something, and they're pretty dry already. Not a fan of winny I didn't notice much on it, and running super dmz then winny seems liked it'd be worse on my liver then super dmz followed by Tbol/var. Who knows I may be getting Tbol/winny without knowing it haha. "Trust your source"
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I'm probably completely misinterpreting what you're after to be fair, it's been a long day. Personal experience with var and T'bol is that I still pack it on a bit. Not wet as such, but size/weight do come unless I'm properly cutting on var. Winny doesn't seem to do that to me "as much". Never used mast, it's next on the list but is another DHT derivative so thought I'd throw it out there.

Apparently "real" T'bol is ridiculously hard to get? Never seemed to have any problems as results looked legit based on what you'd expect, but I guess you never really know!!
 
Mystere3 said:
I wouldn't equate tbol to dbol. I think that dbol is more like var. it's not as potent mg for mg as dbol and it's very expensive so you'd need a lot to get significant mass gain in my experience. IME 100 mg of tbol would be needed to get the same results as 40 of dbol if you're running test and arimidex.
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Structurally they are similar but that's about it I thought?
 
Tbol is a derivative of Dianabol. Tbol is simply dianabol with a 4-chloro alteration. Tbol has a much lower androgenic level than dbol but a better balance of anabolic and androgenic effects. It has an androgenic rating of 6 and an anabolic rating of 53, this is what promotes the "hard" look, you don't gain the puffiness that you do from dbol. And no Tbol does not aromatize, and you have to love the approx 14hr half life. Var curbs my appetite and causes more fat burning than Tbol. But it's not that far off as the results u get. With Tbol u gain more muscle and with var you burn more fat.
 
Also you should compare what gains you actually keep after a 40mg dbol vs 40mg Tbol cycle. I've done it. Tbol wins. It's not always about how much weight you gain while on, but the quality of the muscle you're gaining and what you maintain after you're done. You need to remember a good portion of the weight you gain on dbol is water that will go away after you stop taking it also.
 
Number 10 said:
I'm probably completely misinterpreting what you're after to be fair, it's been a long day. Personal experience with var and T'bol is that I still pack it on a bit. Not wet as such, but size/weight do come unless I'm properly cutting on var. Winny doesn't seem to do that to me "as much". Never used mast, it's next on the list but is another DHT derivative so thought I'd throw it out there. Apparently "real" T'bol is ridiculously hard to get? Never seemed to have any problems as results looked legit based on what you'd expect, but I guess you never really know!!
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In lames terms I'm looking for a "recomp" I'm cutting now to 200 then by June want to start super dmz 1-4 and Tbol/var 3-8 while being able to stay cuttable to 198 weight class. So some size gain is good but I'm looking to get stronger without too much size to where I can't cut for 198s.
 
RH2012 said:
its probably easier now than ever. the labs should have no trouble producing it. using hdrol as a starting material, an oxidation of the 3OH will yield tbol. the 17aCH3 should protect the 17OH group. so it would be a one step reaction. i haven't researched the details but i believe this process would work.
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I was quoting what I read in my edition of William Lewis - Anabolics which is...2004. So it's probably WELL out of date!!

I think the stuff I used to get was Orbis labs and it did the trick for me.
 
Maybe that's true if you're running them solo. I typically run them with test and tren though. In that case you want as much potency as possible and you tend to keep more gains after 16 weeks with dbol in my experience.

hurdlemaker said:
Also you should compare what gains you actually keep after a 40mg dbol vs 40mg Tbol cycle. I've done it. Tbol wins. It's not always about how much weight you gain while on, but the quality of the muscle you're gaining and what you maintain after you're done. You need to remember a good portion of the weight you gain on dbol is water that will go away after you stop taking it also.
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Mystere3 said:
Maybe that's true if you're running them solo. I typically run them with test and tren though. In that case you want as much potency as possible and you tend to keep more gains after 16 weeks with dbol in my experience.
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I loved Tbol with test and tren, I looked the best I ever have in my life at the end of that cycle. I did dbol and tren once and will never again, I literally saw my hairline move back haha. In order to properly dose dbol u need to be taking it every 4-5 hours, which just gets annoying for me. I like taking 20mg of Tbol in the morning and 20mg again 12 hours later. It's simple. I never take orals for more than 8 weeks tho.
 
Here are my experiences with the different orals in order of gain potential:

Methyltrienolone: straight poison. The closest to death I've ever felt (besides a roll-over accident). Enormous gains, but probably not worth it. Dry, hardening effects. Lasted 3 brutal weeks on this and gained 20 lb, kept most of it.

M1t: huge gains, very wet, feel like sht. Hard to run over 3 weeks.

A-bombs: big gains, very wet, lots of lethargy, def need an AI and test.

SD: big gains, lots of lethargy especially at 20+ mg. dry and great for recomp.

Dbol: kinda wet, strong gains, feel good on this, relatively few sides.

Dmz: very few sides, dry, hardening, good strong gains, kicks in fast. Can run 5, maybe 6 weeks.

Tbol: used as kicker, dry, hardening, great for strength. No sides. Moderate gains (~10 lb) when used alone.

Mechabol: moderate gains, no sides, can run 6-8 weeks, perhaps the best value in DS, need to run at 100-125 for best results.

Anavar: similar to tbol with less mass and better cutting potential. Good kicker or finisher for a test cycle where the main purpose is recomp.

Epi: very dry, doesn't work for some people but is awesone for those that it does work for. Can be good for 6-8 lb lbm increases in 6 weeks.

Ostarine: no sides, minimal suppression, great for cutting, small but keepable gains (3-4 lb in 4 weeks, 5-6 in 8 weeks) don't need full pct.
 
I just dosed 40 of dbol in the AM with test and tren, it worked great. I guess everyone has different experiences.

hurdlemaker said:
I loved Tbol with test and tren, I looked the best I ever have in my life at the end of that cycle. I did dbol and tren once and will never again, I literally saw my hairline move back haha. In order to properly dose dbol u need to be taking it every 4-5 hours, which just gets annoying for me. I like taking 20mg of Tbol in the morning and 20mg again 12 hours later. It's simple. I never take orals for more than 8 weeks tho.
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Anavar 100% with some test its amazing for everything. but can be pricy. some liquid Letro and a PCt and your GTG
 
Mystere3 said:
Here are my experiences with the different orals in order of gain potential: Methyltrienolone: straight poison. The closest to death I've ever felt (besides a roll-over accident). Enormous gains, but probably not worth it. Dry, hardening effects. Lasted 3 brutal weeks on this and gained 20 lb, kept most of it. M1t: huge gains, very wet, feel like sht. Hard to run over 3 weeks. A-bombs: big gains, very wet, lots of lethargy, def need an AI and test. SD: big gains, lots of lethargy especially at 20+ mg. dry and great for recomp. Dbol: kinda wet, strong gains, feel good on this, relatively few sides. Dmz: very few sides, dry, hardening, good strong gains, kicks in fast. Can run 5, maybe 6 weeks. Tbol: used as kicker, dry, hardening, great for strength. No sides. Moderate gains (~10 lb) when used alone. Mechabol: moderate gains, no sides, can run 6-8 weeks, perhaps the best value in DS, need to run at 100-125 for best results. Anavar: similar to tbol with less mass and better cutting potential. Good kicker or finisher for a test cycle where the main purpose is recomp. Epi: very dry, doesn't work for some people but is awesone for those that it does work for. Can be good for 6-8 lb lbm increases in 6 weeks. Ostarine: no sides, minimal suppression, great for cutting, small but keepable gains (3-4 lb in 4 weeks, 5-6 in 8 weeks) don't need full pct.
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great write up man, "straight poison" made me lol
 
Mystere3 said:
I wouldn't equate tbol to dbol. I think that dbol is more like var. it's not as potent mg for mg as dbol and it's very expensive so you'd need a lot to get significant mass gain in my experience. IME 100 mg of tbol would be needed to get the same results as 40 of dbol if you're running test and arimidex.

Honestly IMO there's not overly much difference between tbol and anavar.

Hdrol is ok, I tend to prefer dmz or mechabol.

I don't think that oral AAS are automatically better than DS. That classification is arbitrary in many cases. Different compounds are better for specific situations. I have access to pharmaceutical grade versions of all compounds and in some situations I'd still rather run the DS than oral AAS. IME there aren't very comparable oral AAS to SD/dmz that give big dry gains. Var/tbol are both more like epi (but somewhat more effective for most ppl) where adrol/tbol are wetter.
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What difference is there in Mechabol and Hdrol? I havent been up to date on the newer DS but I thought Mecha was just PMag.
 
Mechabol IMO is much faster acting than hdrol and a bit stronger. Sides are similar. Mechabol is the active of pmag so it's more potent.
 
fueledpassion said:
So...more mass? Lol..I need straight answers.

Same dosing? 75mg for 6 weeks?
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More mass. I would dose mecha higher than hdrol. I would go at least 75/75/75/100/100/100 or 75/75/100/100/125/125 and consider going to 150 if tolerated.

I ran it at 75/100/100/125/125/150 on my cycle and still had no sides, I would probably run it higher next time. I used lgi. It was good for about 12 net lb after PCT.

I used transdermal dhea for my test base on this cycle and lethargy and libido were fine.
 
Mystere3 said:
More mass. I would dose mecha higher than hdrol. I would go at least 75/75/75/100/100/100 or 75/75/100/100/125/125 and consider going to 150 if tolerated.

I ran it at 75/100/100/125/125/150 on my cycle and still had no sides, I would probably run it higher next time. I used lgi. It was good for about 12 net lb after PCT.

I used transdermal dhea for my test base on this cycle and lethargy and libido were fine.
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Eh, I'll have TRT with it. I dunno yet. I'll mull over it.
 
Idk the big difference between it and hdrol was the speed in which it kicked in. I thought it was a bit better for mass and about the same for strength.
 
hurdlemaker said:
yes I did it without test. Tbol is basically dbol minus bloat, and dbol is basically oral test. My best friend ran the same cycle before also, here were his results as well <img src="http://anabolicminds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=98413"/>
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What did you dose each at? Was it 6 weeks long you said?
 
jbryand101b said:
I think pmag and methyl clostebol are crap. Neither do shiit for me. I regret punishing methyl clostebol to be made
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See, this makes me want to go with what I KNOW works - hdrol.

If it packed on 10lbs for me last time, and I kept 9lbs, and while "on" my lifts went up around 10% in strength...I think I'd be an idiot to not do it again. I'm going with what I know best.

Plus, I'm thinking about doin a SPF comp in April so I could use the extra 30lbs in my max lifts.
 
fueledpassion said:
See, this makes me want to go with what I KNOW works - hdrol. If it packed on 10lbs for me last time, and I kept 9lbs, and while "on" my lifts went up around 10% in strength...I think I'd be an idiot to not do it again. I'm going with what I know best. Plus, I'm thinking about doin a SPF comp in April so I could use the extra 30lbs in my max lifts.
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Hdrol was my first hormone cycle I've ever ran. I did trenazone, hdrol, and primordial performance androhard. I put on 10 solid pounds and leaned out nicely. Hdrol is pretty cool. I dabble too much in active steroids now so I find PH obsolete. Nothing like high EQ and test for some solid gains.

I'm surprised there aren't more SD lovers in this thread. You can accomplish anything with SD. I find it to be one of the most versatile steroids out there.
 
technique88 said:
Hdrol was my first hormone cycle I've ever ran. I did trenazone, hdrol, and primordial performance androhard. I put on 10 solid pounds and leaned out nicely. Hdrol is pretty cool. I dabble too much in active steroids now so I find PH obsolete. Nothing like high EQ and test for some solid gains.

I'm surprised there aren't more SD lovers in this thread. You can accomplish anything with SD. I find it to be one of the most versatile steroids out there.
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Almost for me except that I lose my appetite horribly on SD.

Aside from that, SD is the most fun oral to run. But I dont make decisions off of fun factor anymore. I consider the health impact, side effects & overall weight retention as my guiding principles. So far, seems Hdrol is winning.
 
hurdlemaker said:
Tbol was 40mg and var was 75mg. I think I did 7 weeks
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my Tbol/var will be 25mg each. What would work better:
Super DMZ 1-4
Tbol/var 50mg each 3-8
Or
Super dmz 1-4
Tbol/var 75mg each 5-8
This will be my first time with all these compounds

Or am I just splitting hairs here?
 
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