Respectable numbers for a beginner.

[fueledpassion]

You win. Stop puttin words in my mouth. You r doin everything to make it seem like what I said was completely garbage. Fact is:

1) You had a problem with my experience and comment. I didnt have a problem with u until..
2) You got defensive and ugly
3) In ur last post, you twisted my comments to serve ur side of the argument
4) You'll do whatever it takes to win an argument over the internet, including having the last word.

OP has solid numbers to start with. You insisted on arguing when I posted what I thought was decent numbers.

But whatever man. In the grand scheme, this attempt to slander me in order to win an argument doesnt matter at all. Have a good night and be sure to wallow in that reality.

 

[napalm]

I posted in this thread...

 

[jimbuick]

You win. Stop puttin words in my mouth. You r doin everything to make it seem like what I said was completely garbage. Fact is:

1) You had a problem with my experience and comment. I didnt have a problem with u until..
2) You got defensive and ugly
3) In ur last post, you twisted my comments to serve ur side of the argument
4) You'll do whatever it takes to win an argument over the internet, including having the last word.

OP has solid numbers to start with. You insisted on arguing when I posted what I thought was decent numbers.

But whatever man. In the grand scheme, this attempt to slander me in order to win an argument doesnt matter at all. Have a good night and be sure to wallow in that reality.

These are your words, no editing.

A general rule to be competitive at meets is to

Bench 2 times ur weight
Squat 2.5 times
DL 2.5-3 times

Right here you state outright that OP will not be competitive at a meet because of some arbitrary figures that you made up.

Several 198's bench over 400. Its pretty common.

This was your response when your point was argued by people that have been to multiple meets. And even when confronted by facts of PLing by other posters (classes of totals, records, elite totals by weight class)

Geeze, we're not talkin about 308 class! We're talkin the 198 class. BIG DIFFERENCE IN EXPECTATIONS FOR POWER/WEIGHT RATIO BETWEEN THOSE TWO. Read my post in context of the thread please.

So I guess I'm world class PL'er liftin around 1120lbs at 174lbs? Is that what ur sayin? There are sssooooooo many people that could piss on my numbers in a lighter class than me.

This was your response when someone who actually powerlifts (you state you've seen meets, not that you've competed, so I assume you don't) stated their experiences at meets, and after this was shown to you.

competitive at what level? the world class? cause i could see that for sure.

now i have only done 5 powerlifting meets yet i have won my weight class at 3 of them and i dont hit those numbers. the largest meet i was at was a local meet with 73 lifters. the smallest was a state championship meet with 25. oh, and the state championship was won with a 1800 total and according to your recommendations that guy is not competitive. he was 350lbs shy of being competitive yet he is going to nationals next year. something seems a bit off.

i think someone is number numb here and competitive needs to be clarified. there are local/city meets, state level meets, national and world level meets. what i have seen win at local and state levels are closer to:
bench 1.5x BW
squat 1.5-2x BW
deadlift 2-2.5x BW

sure you can find examples of higher but i know you can examples of lower here as well. what is important is taking an average, or even a median. above what i listed is much closer to winning at nearly any weight class. and that is still decided upon who even shows up that day and not everyone wins. there is a reason why there are 6 classes of lifter rankings.
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lets take a male 198lbs lifter. to get a class IV total he only needs 822. that is only a 4.15x BW total. a far less cry of the above recommended 7.5x BW. 7.5x BW would get the lifter 10lbs shy of elite. and elite is usually considered the top 1% or less of the world i better dam hope your competitive at that level. hell im winning meets at 5.65x my bodyweight.

so to wrap up, if you want to be the best in the world, aim for higher that the above recommended numbers. if you want to compete, sign up, compete and you are then a competitive powerlifter. and hopefully like all the meets i have been to you will realize that everyone is very supported of all lifters. from an 8yr old girl to a 73yr old man, to a handicapped lifter to someone that cant even lift their bodyweight to a monster with an 1800lbs total. you will see that when the effort is put forth everyone gets excited and roots for everyone even fellow competitors. hell at one meet i helped a guy wrap his knees and watched him go on to beat me. i was glad to do so as he got a PR that meet after an injury 6 months earlier. made a friend that day with that lifter too.

im talking about all weight classes. i used 2 as examples and showed a classification for all weight classes. at each weight class elite is:
114 = 7.04x BW
123 = 7.16
132 = 7.17
148 = 7.59
165 = 7.62
181 = 7.71
198 = 7.55
220 = 7.21
242 = 6.64
275 = 6.22
308 = 5.65

wow, at 7.5x BW you would part of the worlds elite at pretty much every weight class there is for a male. that sounds reasonable for the average person to reach, uuhmmm no it doesnt at all. even for people that train for years to reach that level there is a reason why elite is elite. its the best of the best. so your comment on being elite as a way to be competitive is so far off of realism its just sad. shows a massive skewed view of the real world. it also shows that you are just number numb. sure you know some strong guys. but is that an accurate representation of the competitive world of powerlifting, well the lifting classifications i posted prove that no, thats not the case at all. now you can argue with that but then you are arguing with an entire federation's standards and not mine. maybe you should start your own fed and start the bottom ratings as something like 7.0x BW totals and go up from there. and people that lift in that fed can then argue over what is strong or not. i'll stick to the what the other 99.999% of the world is doing in reality.

i think this is the point where several people prove you wrong and you try and backpedal. i rarely see your posts around here, at least in the sections i frequent, but when i do see them this is a common thing with you. totally off the wall, way out there posts that are so wrong you have to wonder if you are trolling due to the massive pile of wrong that is your posts.

and that weight puts you in the 181 weight class with a class II ranking. according to your 7.5x BW standard to be competitive that you would not be competitive at all. so by your own statements you are not world class. by ranking accepted by rational thinking people you are a class II lifter. it would get decent competition at a state level and maybe even in some feds at a national level.

if those people are pissing on your numbers at a lighter weight class, well that means that they would be a master or elite lifter. seeing as how they are a lighter weight class that is a good thing as they are totaling at a higher level than you are. what that has to do with anything is beyond me other than you grasping as straws. the only time you would compete with them at a meet is if you went to a USSF meet and yes, they are stronger so they would win. but then they use the Wilks score to decide the winner so they could lift less than you and still bet you, and therefore be stronger. more proof that this statement has no relevance to the topic at hand.

i think it is clear that anyone can be competitive at any level i am curious to see how the responses continue on here. for the many years i have frequented forums it is pretty obvious what will happen though.

There's a reason damn near every powerlifter on this forum disagrees with you. Because you're wrong.

You said that to be competitive in a meet the OP would need a 7-7.5x BW total, every person who has competed on this forum has shared their experiences showing that to be untrue. One does not need an elite total to compete at a meet, nor does he need one to win his class at a meet.

Telling that to a new lifter DISCOURAGES THEM FROM COMPETING! If you were getting ready for a BBing competition (I assume you do that based on your AVI) and your coach told you that you wouldn't even be competitive until you gained another 50# of solid muscle I can almost guarantee it would discourage you from competing at the show you hired him for.

 

[anonymous_bur]

are you joking? if you dont bench over 400 at 198 raw you dont even make the mens current list on powerliftingwatch.

Sure but how many guys is that? There's common, as in common among elite powerlifters, and there's what most people mean when they say common, which is oh yeah I know two or three guys like that. I think almost everyone knows exactly 0 guys like that and if you do you're probably lifting in a great powerlifting gym and if you are congratulations, you're lucky.

 

[jimbuick]

Sure but how many guys is that? There's common, as in common among elite powerlifters, and there's what most people mean when they say common, which is oh yeah I know two or three guys like that. I think almost everyone knows exactly 0 guys like that and if you do you're probably lifting in a great powerlifting gym and if you are congratulations, you're lucky.

FWIW, I don't personally know any people that bench 400 raw that weigh under 200.

I don't typically pay attention to other lifters (except for people I know personally) at meets, but I can't even say I've seen any at any of the meets I've been to....

 

[rob112]

I think the main thing is to read the title of the thread. It specifically says "beginner." Even if it was common to lift elite(which it is not bc it wouldn't be called elite) we should at least certainly agree that beginners aren't commonly lifting elite; I would hope.

 

[asooneyeonig]

imo. competitive for a 198 should be 550+ / 365+ / 550+. Those are numbers that would be competitive at a small meet.

define small meet please as i see people winning with 100lbs less on ALL lifts even at heavier weight classes. i do train with a guy that hits about those numbers at 198. he destroys people around here when he competes, usually in USAPL meets. i do AAU, USSF and a small local unsanctioned meet & have been to 100% raw meets in this area. those numbers would hands down win even at heavier weight classes too.

now i have seen your goals for next year, and dam! thats some strong sh!t. no offense but i think you may be number numb. i see this when im talking to guys at the gym all the time. they tend to compare themselves to the top guys in the world and not to all powerlifters, let alone mere mortals lol.

 

[James Fuller]

ok heres what my friend did at his last meet in september. i competed in the same meet. hes 18, just graduated hs this year. 198 raw class. 560/360/540. Him and me are still considered new. weve barely been doing this for just over a year. We both win all the time around here, but if we were to venture out our numbers would get stomped. So i consider his numbers competitive for a 198 guy, and i consider mine competitive for a 165 guy. which we are both still considered beginners.

 

[James Fuller]

another one of my training partners weighs 209 and competes at 220. has only did 2 meets so far. he hits around 500/340/510. he had to battle it out at both of his meets and still came in 2nd both times by a pretty decent margin. But then again his first meet he went up against Ben Rice. So i guess i am "number numb" since at the meets i compete at i see guys like ben rice, the seath brothers, grant higa, mike kromer, jerame linnel, andy roof and a few others that are hitting pretty big numbers.

 

[jimbuick]

ok heres what my friend did at his last meet in september. i competed in the same meet. hes 18, just graduated hs this year. 198 raw class. 560/360/540. Him and me are still considered new. weve barely been doing this for just over a year. We both win all the time around here, but if we were to venture out our numbers would get stomped. So i consider his numbers competitive for a 198 guy, and i consider mine competitive for a 165 guy. which we are both still considered beginners.

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He may be "new" to competing, but he also totals just under elite (something like 11 pounds under @ Open Raw 198). Totaling elite is definitely not what it takes to be competitive at most meets (that's why it's called elite, not average).

Most people that compete do not have elite totals, hell I could take all of the APF TX Records at 198 and still not have an elite total. So, using someone with an elite (or damn near) total (even if they've only competed a few times) is definitely not picking the average lifter at 198.

 

[James Fuller]

Invalid Link Removed

He may be "new" to competing, but he also totals just under elite (something like 11 pounds under @ Open Raw 198). Totaling elite is definitely not what it takes to be competitive at most meets (that's why it's called elite, not average).

Most people that compete do not have elite totals, hell I could take all of the APF TX Records at 198 and still not have an elite total. So, using someone with an elite (or damn near) total (even if they've only competed a few times) is definitely not picking the average lifter at 198.

I understand what your saying, as i pointed out that 2nd post, I compete around some freaks, so now i realize what you guys are talking about. almost everyone that competes around here is close to an elite total. so i retract my statement on those numbers to be competitive. Those are numbers you need to be competitive around here

 

[James Fuller]

2 of the 198lb guys i watch compete are my friend, and then ibn mahama. who just got picked up by animal. their numbers are pretty similar, but ibn pulls away with his bench alot of the time. randy can keep up on squat if he has a good day and is getting close on dl

 

[fueledpassion]

Well maybe I was wrong about my "off the cuff" response to round about figures. You guys took it to heart I think. For years I was 150 - 165lbs so tbose numbers were required based on the PL meets I went to in order to just place. 1.8 on bench is fair, and 2 times ur BW on squats and DL is good too.

So I guess the south has stronger guys because it really is somewhat common to see between 2 & 3 times the bodyweight moved, raw. Now, it is rare to see a fella have all three of those numbers but easy to find guys that rock one or two of those lifts around here. I dont even do PL and never had, and by ya'll standard of measurement I'm 175lbs away from world class strength. Time to start strength training I guess since I'm already so close.

I'm really sorry to offend u guys. The other piece of advice I have for u is to not compete in TN otherwise a serious amount of disappointment might await u with a 4 - 5.5x's lift.

I hope this means that ya'll can stop being a-holes to me.

 

[fueledpassion]

I understand what your saying, as i pointed out that 2nd post, I compete around some freaks, so now i realize what you guys are talking about. almost everyone that competes around here is close to an elite total. so i retract my statement on those numbers to be competitive. Those are numbers you need to be competitive around here

And I say the same.

 

[rob112]

I always thought of Tennessee as the closest thing to Russia in the USA...

 

[asooneyeonig]

I understand what your saying, as i pointed out that 2nd post, I compete around some freaks, so now i realize what you guys are talking about. almost everyone that competes around here is close to an elite total. so i retract my statement on those numbers to be competitive. Those are numbers you need to be competitive around here

lol. you totally live in a rough area if you want to be top dog. you should move down near me and you would crush people!!

 

[jimbuick]

APF Tennessee State Records

Mens Open Raw 198

Jim Shipley 475/330/515 1320 Total


These numbers are a great deal short of what some people have painted the TN PLing climate to be.

And, since these are the state records, it would be fair to assume that no one in the state of TN has competed in the APF with better lifts than these. Which means, that most people in TN (who compete APF) do not have an elite total at 198, AND more importantly, that it doesn't take a 7.5x BW total to be competitive in TN. (because the guy with ALL of the records had lower than that).



Check and mate.

 

[asooneyeonig]

APF Tennessee State Records

Mens Open Raw 198

Jim Shipley 475/330/515 1320 Total


These numbers are a great deal short of what some people have painted the TN PLing climate to be.

And, since these are the state records, it would be fair to assume that no one in the state of TN has competed in the APF with better lifts than these. Which means, that most people in TN (who compete APF) do not have an elite total at 198, AND more importantly, that it doesn't take a 7.5x BW total to be competitive in TN. (because the guy with ALL of the records had lower than that).



Check and mate.

im guessing there also may be other feds in your area? i know around here 100% raw, AAU, and USAPL are the big ones. other feds really dont have meets around here at all. i dont think APF or even APA have any meets in my state. i have training partners that compete in 1 or 2 feds but not all of them mainly due to rules and not so much competition. i do AAU but i dislike their bench flat foot rubbish lol. im looking at switching feds just for that. who knows, maybe i will to get a lot stronger once i do that.

 

[fueledpassion]

im guessing there also may be other feds in your area? i know around here 100% raw, AAU, and USAPL are the big ones. other feds really dont have meets around here at all. i dont think APF or even APA have any meets in my state. i have training partners that compete in 1 or 2 feds but not all of them mainly due to rules and not so much competition. i do AAU but i dislike their bench flat foot rubbish lol. im looking at switching feds just for that. who knows, maybe i will to get a lot stronger once i do that.

The meets I went to r SLP (Son light powerlifting). The guy that hosted this org is finished though. He got really sick and shut down his own operation. Anyways, his website may still be up but the numbers those guys put up were astounding, particularly in Tennessee/Mississippi area.

The 165 class TN state record was 420 for bench and over 500 for DL and squats.

It only got worse as you went upwards in weight class. The guy claimed to drug test, but it wasnt drug tested at all. Every guy I knew that did the meet was on Test/Tren combo with an oral usually. Its like JudoJosh said earlier it just depends on who shows up that day. If the guys I know show up, there isnt any hope for an above average lifter.

I know another fella that weighs 215 and bench presses 515lbs for 4-6 reps (not natural). And I can think of a third fella in my gym that moves almost 600lbs DL weighing in at 195lbs, raw and natty. Ridiculous...

 

[rob112]

The meets I went to r SLP (Son light powerlifting). The guy that hosted this org is finished though. He got really sick and shut down his own operation. Anyways, his website may still be up but the numbers those guys put up were astounding, particularly in Tennessee/Mississippi area.

The 165 class TN state record was 420 for bench and over 500 for DL and squats.

It only got worse as you went upwards in weight class. The guy claimed to drug test, but it wasnt drug tested at all. Every guy I knew that did the meet was on Test/Tren combo with an oral usually. Its like JudoJosh said earlier it just depends on who shows up that day. If the guys I know show up, there isnt any hope for an above average lifter.

I know another fella that weighs 215 and bench presses 515lbs for 4-6 reps (not natural). And I can think of a third fella in my gym that moves almost 600lbs DL weighing in at 195lbs, raw and natty. Ridiculous...

I appreciate the fact that you stopped down playing people's feats of strength in this post(100%srs). Also drugs make a difference as well(just agreeing). I compete in a drug tested federation and that makes things different than untested divisions around here(PA). Granted there are still strong ass mofos, but they are not the norm. I saw a SHW open at 610 and just barely miss lockout on 645, a 181 deadlift 500(other lifts not as impressive...and that isn't to make fun), and even a 198er bench 405

But to act like that is just okay really downplays their hard work. This should all be a brother hood where all of us encourage each other.

TL;dr
Cliffs-I actually appreciate this post of yours.

 

[fueledpassion]

I appreciate the fact that you stopped down playing people's feats of strength in this post(100%srs). Also drugs make a difference as well(just agreeing). I compete in a drug tested federation and that makes things different than untested divisions around here(PA). Granted there are still strong ass mofos, but they are not the norm. I saw a SHW open at 610 and just barely miss lockout on 645, a 181 deadlift 500(other lifts not as impressive...and that isn't to make fun), and even a 198er bench 405

But to act like that is just okay really downplays their hard work. This should all be a brother hood where all of us encourage each other.

TL;dr
Cliffs-I actually appreciate this post of yours.

For what its worth, I'm very new to the PL scene. I was introduced to working out again years ago by a 308 PL'er who was my boss at the time. Granted, he wasnt natty but could DL 700+. Heck he curled 225, lol.

Anyways, I never got into it because SLP was the ones I went to and saw the records for state and national levels and viewed them as impractical and basically though you had to be genetically blessed with unreal strength to compete in this sport - so I went BB'ing instead due to my short stature and round muscle bellies. The other supporting factor for my decision was that I constantly saw super human strength in the gym on a somewhat regular basis. Surrounded by gearheads and record holding PL'ers, I just assumed that 2+ ur weight in everything was acceptible strength to compete.

So now I'm starting a 5/3/1 routine for the first time ever. Napalm has been coercing me into strength training so I thought I might try it.

 

[napalm]

So now I'm starting a 5/3/1 routine for the first time ever. Napalm has been coercing me into strength training so I thought I might try it.

Life is over as you know it. Soon, all of your dreams will be narrated by Jim wendler...

 

[rob112]

For what its worth, I'm very new to the PL scene. I was introduced to working out again years ago by a 308 PL'er who was my boss at the time. Granted, he wasnt natty but could DL 700+. Heck he curled 225, lol.

Anyways, I never got into it because SLP was the ones I went to and saw the records for state and national levels and viewed them as impractical and basically though you had to be genetically blessed with unreal strength to compete in this sport - so I went BB'ing instead due to my short stature and round muscle bellies. The other supporting factor for my decision was that I constantly saw super human strength in the gym on a somewhat regular basis. Surrounded by gearheads and record holding PL'ers, I just assumed that 2+ ur weight in everything was acceptible strength to compete.

So now I'm starting a 5/3/1 routine for the first time ever. Napalm has been coercing me into strength training so I thought I might try it.

Well training in a scene like that can only help. Very cool stuff.

5/3/1 is one of the most proven programs there is. You can still keep the accessory with some bodybuilding. You just get stronger.

I personally think bodybuilders and powerlifters should at the minimum respect each other and be humble towards each other. Both are hard and take there own mental and physical aspects that deserve respect. We are all brothers of iron and we both train.

 

[fueledpassion]

Life is over as you know it. Soon, all of your dreams will be narrated by Jim wendler...

And so u know, I did legs last night and with wrong calculations lol. Forgot to do the 90% of true 1RM so I basically did 3X5 of 65/75/85% of my true 1RM.

....Then I banged out 1 x 50 reps on leg press, lol. My bodybuilding tendencies r strong.

 

[jimbuick]

im guessing there also may be other feds in your area? i know around here 100% raw, AAU, and USAPL are the big ones. other feds really dont have meets around here at all. i dont think APF or even APA have any meets in my state. i have training partners that compete in 1 or 2 feds but not all of them mainly due to rules and not so much competition. i do AAU but i dislike their bench flat foot rubbish lol. im looking at switching feds just for that. who knows, maybe i will to get a lot stronger once i do that.

I live in TX, and only ever competed APF. I know there are USAPL meets in my area, but other than that I couldn't say.

I assume APF is active in most states as the WPC is a fairly large PLing Fed.

The meets I went to r SLP (Son light powerlifting). The guy that hosted this org is finished though. He got really sick and shut down his own operation. Anyways, his website may still be up but the numbers those guys put up were astounding, particularly in Tennessee/Mississippi area.

The 165 class TN state record was 420 for bench and over 500 for DL and squats.

It only got worse as you went upwards in weight class. The guy claimed to drug test, but it wasnt drug tested at all. Every guy I knew that did the meet was on Test/Tren combo with an oral usually. Its like JudoJosh said earlier it just depends on who shows up that day. If the guys I know show up, there isnt any hope for an above average lifter.

I know another fella that weighs 215 and bench presses 515lbs for 4-6 reps (not natural). And I can think of a third fella in my gym that moves almost 600lbs DL weighing in at 195lbs, raw and natty. Ridiculous...

APF is also completely untested, they do not even claim to test.

 

[napalm]

And so u know, I did legs last night and with wrong calculations lol. Forgot to do the 90% of true 1RM so I basically did 3X5 of 65/75/85% of my true 1RM. ....Then I banged out 1 x 50 reps on leg press, lol. My bodybuilding tendencies r strong.

Use the template I sent you...

 

[napalm]

APF is also completely untested, they do not even claim to test.

I should make a bumper sticker that says: 'this is the APF son, if you ain't pinning, you ain't winning.'

I'm sure mike Sweeney would appreciate that...

 

[fueledpassion]

I should make a bumper sticker that says: 'this is the APF son, if you ain't pinning, you ain't winning.'

I'm sure mike Sweeney would appreciate that...

Lol, thats catchy. Will make use of the template..

 

[James Fuller]

Heres Texas state records for USPA Raw (no wraps)



.
90kg/198.2lb Squat 287.5 633.82 Chuck Krutulis 3/23/2013

.
Bench 172.5 380.29 Chuck Krutulis 3/23/2013

.
Deadlift 290 639.33 Chuck Krutulis 3/23/2013

.
TOTAL 750 1653.45 Chuck Krutulis 3/23/2013

 

[fueledpassion]

Heres Texas state records for USPA Raw (no wraps)

.
90kg/198.2lb Squat 287.5 633.82 Chuck Krutulis 3/23/2013

.
Bench 172.5 380.29 Chuck Krutulis 3/23/2013

.
Deadlift 290 639.33 Chuck Krutulis 3/23/2013

.
TOTAL 750 1653.45 Chuck Krutulis 3/23/2013

Thats over 8 times his weight. Thats what I had previously considered competitive on a state level...

 

[rob112]

Looks like Chuck Krutalis is a beast

 

[anonymous_bur]

Thats over 8 times his weight. Thats what I had previously considered competitive on a state level...

That's not competitive, that's the STATE RECORD. You certainly don't have to beat a record to compete and, though this might be obvious, almost everyone who enters any given competition loses. You're almost always competing to beat yourself, not anybody else.

 

[CountryLiftin]

And I can think of a third fella in my gym that moves almost 600lbs DL weighing in at 195lbs, raw and natty. Ridiculous...

We workout at the same gym?

Life is over as you know it. Soon, all of your dreams will be narrated by Jim wendler...

He's not lying.





PL is a sport about bettering yourself in a competitive setting. Few people ever hold world records. There is always someone else out there better than you or getting ready to be better than you. It takes competitors to make a meet.

 

[fueledpassion]

We workout at the same gym?

He's not lying.

PL is a sport about bettering yourself in a competitive setting. Few people ever hold world records. There is always someone else out there better than you or getting ready to be better than you. It takes competitors to make a meet.

Yeah I agree with that. I dont really have a personal goal yet for strength because I'm still bulking. Would like to get to 200lbs which is about 25lbs away. I guess when I get to that point I'd like to have something around a 1400lb cumulative.

 

[CountryLiftin]

Yeah I agree with that. I dont really have a personal goal yet for strength because I'm still bulking. Would like to get to 200lbs which is about 25lbs away. I guess when I get to that point I'd like to have something around a 1400lb cumulative.

That would be a respectable total.