Mass gaining program?

[Jezacorne]

Hey guys,

For my first post i was wondering if any of you knew of any dynamite mass gaining programs? I seem to stay around the weight of 70kg's but my strength is growing slowly (80kg bench, 132.5kg deadlift). My target weight is about 80-85kg's. I've got about 3 years gym experience though have only recently started to eat a good amount of food that will assist in putting on weight (healthy of course!!)

If any of you could recommend any good programs that I could follow that would be fantastic.

cheers guys!!

Jez

ps: i've just started doing crossfit 2-3 times a week also

 

[Jcweinsx]

Crossfit may not be the best path to more mass. Check out stronglifts and Jim Wendler's 5/3/1. Years of lifting? Programming? Caloric intake and macros? I would recommend stronglifts first for a few months like 6+ then switch another program like 5/3/1 once you stop improving using progressive loading.

Getting bigger requires a balance between diet, recovery, and training stimulus. I put them in my order of importance.

 

[Wrivest]

I've been doing CF for about 2 years and have to agree, it's not designed for size. I've recently cut back my CF to once a week and started Wendler and have finally made size gains.
CF is great for overall fitness and strength (if done carefully and well coached) but you won't get bigger

 

[Aussteve]

The old squats and milk program is the go for putting it on quick! Google it and all shall be revealed, but it's essentially 20 rep squats and LOTS of good healthy food ( milk optional!? ). You need to be able to back squat with good form first! Basically you take your 10-12 rep max and squat it for 20! Yeah it's gonna hurt and yeah your prob gonna throw up but it works! The key is to take a few seconds between each rep, breathe and push yourself like you never have before. Start off your first few sessions with a wgt you KNOW you will get 20 reps for just to get a feel for it, then once your confident you gotta put the wgt up by around 2.5 to 5 kg each session! Do it twice a week and in session 1 do a few pulling exercises ( back , bicep ) and in session 2 do a few pushing exercises ( chest , shoulders , tricep ). Always squat first and keep the other exercises in each session to no more than 4 or 5 , with only 2-3 sets per exercise ( HIT style of training works well ! ). I find with the squats you need to do a full warm up before the 20 rep set. For me that = 4 or 5 sets at 15 , 8 , 6 , 4 , 2 and my last set of 2 is always a good 10-20 kg over the target 20 rep set so then you drop back down to the 20 rep wgt ( good for your head as it feels lighter!! ). The 20 rep set is all about digging deep and really pitting all you got into it and it does work!!

Good luck

 

[hvactech]

id start with stronglifts 5x5

 

[tigerdb2]

Find a good program such.as the 5x5 variations or maybe 5/3/1 w big but boring accessories and eat. Mass will be dictated by diet

 

[PaulBlack]

It is pretty simple.

summing up...
Hard work and effort on the 5-7 Compound exercises 2x+ weekly
Multi sets ie: (4-5) and mid range to lower reps ie: (5-8)
*Eating enough or even a surplus of "good" cals.
Adding in arms abs after the big work.

*Pretty big factor

 

[PROness]

It is pretty simple.

summing up...
Hard work and effort on the 5-7 Compound exercises 2x+ weekly
Multi sets ie: (4-5) and mid range to lower reps ie: (5-8)
*Eating enough or even a surplus of "good" cals.
Adding in arms abs after the big work.

*Pretty big factor

Nice, but I'd like to add to it... perhaps the most important part IMO: I wouldn't worry about adding accessory exercises at all until a good 3months when you start to really master the BIG 5-7 lifts. All too often I see BB newbies trying to add in arms and other accessory lifts when they are a drop in the bucket compared to the effects of the big compound lifts will have at first. Focus on the BIG 5-7 lifts first and master them, then add in the bull**** when your progress begins to slow or plateau completly.

 

[Rodja]

Nice, but I'd like to add to it... perhaps the most important part IMO: I wouldn't worry about adding accessory exercises at all until a good 3months when you start to really master the BIG 5-7 lifts. All too often I see BB newbies trying to add in arms and other accessory lifts when they are a drop in the bucket compared to the effects of the big compound lifts will have at first. Focus on the BIG 5-7 lifts first and master them, then add in the bull**** when your progress begins to slow or plateau completly.

I disagree here. Accessory lifts are designed to strengthen weaknesses in the kinetic chain and fix postural deviations. For neophytes, this is extremely important as they almost always have some deviations in these departments and neglecting them would exacerbate the issue. Tight hips, tight abs, weak RC complex, internal rotation(s) of the femur and humerus;, etc.

 

[PROness]

I disagree here. Accessory lifts are designed to strengthen weaknesses in the kinetic chain and fix postural deviations. For neophytes, this is extremely important as they almost always have some deviations in these departments and neglecting them would exacerbate the issue. Tight hips, tight abs, weak RC complex, internal rotation(s) of the femur and humerus;, etc.

If the BIG 5-7 are done correctly and responsibly the issues that you mentioned will resolve themselves. Mobility will be gained and as that happens those muscles will begin to activate and play a bigger role in the lifts; and ultimately become stronger as a result. Accessory lifts have their place after you've tapped the big compund lifts out and need an extra stressor to promote growth and strength. Keep it simple, real simple.

OLY lifters start out doing 3 lifts and only 3 lifts and when's the last time you saw one of them heading to the cable machine to do glute kickbacks because their external rotation at the femur sucks?

 

[tigerdb2]

But, to counter, the few oly lifters I trained along side did a far more comprehensive warm up and general daily movements drills which covered a lot of that (they also did more than 3 exercises but that's not the basis of the debate). Foam rolling, shoulder dislocation, band work, etc. Granted we were in a weight room all day which allowed us the time and resources but the point remains that a lot of those areas were considered and covered

 

[Aussteve]

Like I said with the 20 rep squat prog, keep it simple! Almost all athletic endeavors rely primarily on the posterior chain! Building muscle as a newbie is no different. Strengthen those muscles and as the nature of the exercises will dictate so to will everything else get worked along with it! Throw in a good pushing exercise, I like dips!?!?, and there you have it!!
There is a reason why the 2 biggest movements, squats and deadlifts, are also by far the hardest to master. They stimulate biggest overall developments both muscularly and neurologically!

 

[Rodja]

If the BIG 5-7 are done correctly and responsibly the issues that you mentioned will resolve themselves. Mobility will be gained and as that happens those muscles will begin to activate and play a bigger role in the lifts; and ultimately become stronger as a result. Accessory lifts have their place after you've tapped the big compund lifts out and need an extra stressor to promote growth and strength. Keep it simple, real simple.

OLY lifters start out doing 3 lifts and only 3 lifts and when's the last time you saw one of them heading to the cable machine to do glute kickbacks because their external rotation at the femur sucks?

No, it doesn't work that way. The muscles that they have will become stronger and the muscles that are underdeveloped will remain at the same level, which will further widen the gap. Like you've alluded to, the BIG lifts will hit the big muscles; however, it is the small muscles that often are the issue when it comes to imbalances. For example, a tight psoas and/hip flexors are ubiquitous in the under-trained and squatting will do nothing to correct this

Oly lifters put a huge emphasis on mobility and technique before even venturing to pushing heavy volume and/or weight.

 

[Aussteve]

So as the psoas and the glutes are opposing muscles your trying to tell me that squating, or posterior chain exercises, will have no direct effect on the Efficiency of the psoas!?!? Tight psoas are the main reason for lower back pain but it's more of a flexibility issue than under development. They get tight and pull your hips back basically. If you strengthen an antagonist muscle COMBINED with flexibility exercises for the tight muscle in question, is this not the best TOTAL therapy or conditioning of said muscle!? So yes squats WILL improve the overall efficiency of the hip flexors/ psoas muscles but in a supporting, antagonistic role!

Brings up another factor to all training and that is general flexibility . Don't know how many gym goers I see that never warm up, let alone stretch!?

 

[Rodja]

So as the psoas and the glutes are opposing muscles your trying to tell me that squating, or posterior chain exercises, will have no direct effect on the Efficiency of the psoas!?!? Tight psoas are the main reason for lower back pain but it's more of a flexibility issue than under development. They get tight and pull your hips back basically. If you strengthen an antagonist muscle COMBINED with flexibility exercises for the tight muscle in question, is this not the best TOTAL therapy or conditioning of said muscle!? So yes squats WILL improve the overall efficiency of the hip flexors/ psoas muscles but in a supporting, antagonistic role!

Brings up another factor to all training and that is general flexibility . Don't know how many gym goers I see that never warm up, let alone stretch!?

Imbalances are not only a strength issue as it can also be a mobility issue (e.g. pec minor). You're not going to see many properly performed squats with a tight psoas as this often leads to the "butt wink" and this is definitely not going to help psoas issues along with the accompanying anterior pelvic tilt. Fixing this requires specific glute and ab strengthening (rotational work specifically), which is the point I'm trying to make; you cannot stick to a handful of lifts and expect postural deviations to not occur and/or to expect the existing ones to become better.

Nearly every person I see in the gym doesn't do a thorough warmup in terms of mobility, postural correction, and working up to the main sets. Stretching itself won't do much as tightness is often a symptom and not the underlying issue. The psoas is a great example of this; stretching the hip flexors won't correct the psoas tightness, but mobilizing the hips will do so. Flexibility and mobility are not the same and are erroneously used interchangeably.

 

[PROness]

No, it doesn't work that way. The muscles that they have will become stronger and the muscles that are underdeveloped will remain at the same level, which will further widen the gap. Like you've alluded to, the BIG lifts will hit the big muscles; however, it is the small muscles that often are the issue when it comes to imbalances. For example, a tight psoas and/hip flexors are ubiquitous in the under-trained and squatting will do nothing to correct this

Oly lifters put a huge emphasis on mobility and technique before even venturing to pushing heavy volume and/or weight.

Why would one need to correct this? We don't care about mobility or imbalances. This is about gaining pure mass, and the best way to gain pure mass for beginners (BBing) is to pick a handful of compund movements and make them religion and the rest will come in time. As one advances and gains more size and strength they will be able to access their weaknesses and add accessories accordingly. Not everyone is the same therefore you can't just throw in a few accessories and expect them to work their "imbalances" without first testing the waters and establishing a strength and size base.

 

[PROness]

So as the psoas and the glutes are opposing muscles your trying to tell me that squating, or posterior chain exercises, will have no direct effect on the Efficiency of the psoas!?!? Tight psoas are the main reason for lower back pain but it's more of a flexibility issue than under development. They get tight and pull your hips back basically. If you strengthen an antagonist muscle COMBINED with flexibility exercises for the tight muscle in question, is this not the best TOTAL therapy or conditioning of said muscle!? So yes squats WILL improve the overall efficiency of the hip flexors/ psoas muscles but in a supporting, antagonistic role!

Brings up another factor to all training and that is general flexibility . Don't know how many gym goers I see that never warm up, let alone stretch!?

Exactly, a deep squat done correctly will fry your hip flexors. If we're (Rodja) saying that the squat doesn't work the hip flexors then we would be assuming that there is no eccentric phase to squatting which means we would just drop straight into the the hole like a loose noodle. If we do the lift correcctly then the psoas should be actively pulling one into the hole, ideally.

Off topic but just thought I'd say.

 

[Swanson52]

Why would one need to correct this? We don't care about mobility or imbalances. This is about gaining pure mass, and the best way to gain pure mass for beginners (BBing) is to pick a handful of compund movements and make them religion and the rest will come in time. As one advances and gains more size and strength they will be able to access their weaknesses and add accessories accordingly. Not everyone is the same therefore you can't just throw in a few accessories and expect them to work their "imbalances" without first testing the waters and establishing a strength and size base.

Why would you want to grow with imbalances? This post makes zero sense.

 

[Aussteve]

Why would one need to correct this? We don't care about mobility or imbalances. This is about gaining pure mass, and the best way to gain pure mass for beginners (BBing) is to pick a handful of compund movements and make them religion and the rest will come in time. As one advances and gains more size and strength they will be able to access their weaknesses and add accessories accordingly. Not everyone is the same therefore you can't just throw in a few accessories and expect them to work their "imbalances" without first testing the waters and establishing a strength and size base.

Totally agree with this! 'postural imbalances' can only be realized AFTER one has commenced a strength/fitness program. Quite often a good program done with correct form and enough recovery can address many existing problems anyway! Like I said, and I stick to it through experience not what a text book has said, mobility/flexibilty ( yes they are separate and different but do go hand in hand ) issues are best treated by addressing both the muscle/area in question AND it's antagonist!! For instance, I had issues with psoas tightness some 15+ years ago. The ONLY thing that helped was to myofacially release the posterior chain, particularly glutes, hence treating the antagonist not the agonist! Our body's are a balance in so many ways and only through experience and learning individually can we get it right! For new loggers just get stuck in, pay attention to form and then worry about the finer points once a certain level of experience is reached!!!


In other words GET UNDER THE BAR!!!

 

[Aussteve]

Exactly, a deep squat done correctly will fry your hip flexors. If we're (Rodja) saying that the squat doesn't work the hip flexors then we would be assuming that there is no eccentric phase to squatting which means we would just drop straight into the the hole like a loose noodle. If we do the lift correcctly then the psoas should be actively pulling one into the hole, ideally.

Off topic but just thought I'd say.

Exactly!! The if squating can cause tightness in the psoas, which it can, then it MUST be working it eh!?!?


***t it ain't hard to figure out, is it!?!?

 

[Swanson52]

We have 2 diametrically opposed schools of thought in this thread I see.

 

[PROness]

Why would you want to grow with imbalances? This post makes zero sense.

You can't identify an imbalance and weakness if you don't grow and get stronger first, respectively. -.-

That would be like saying you're going to try and fix a brand new car that you haven't even driven yet. Drive that bitch first then begin to tweak it when abnormalities begin to occur.

 

[Swanson52]

EVERYONE has an imbalance, regardless of strength level. There's no magic weight at which you say "ok, you're strong enough, lets see where the problem is".

Address it NOW. The trainee's max is their max for a reason. So I take Joe who squats 225. Why 225? Is it leg strength? Core? Upper back?

With your "just lift" protocol, where do you propose we start bringing Joe's squat up?

To add; your example is fairly poor. We're taking a new car & adding stuff to make it perform better. Using your analogy (car) what good does it do to replace the intake if the fuel system is stock? Can't get enough gas. What of exhaust? We've improved air INTAKE, but now it can't get the combusted gasses out.

The body is a system. There's always a weakness. Always.

 

[PaulBlack]

I wouldn't worry about adding accessory exercises at all until a good 3months when you start to really master the BIG 5-7 lifts. All too often I see BB newbies trying to add in arms and other accessory lifts when they are a drop in the bucket compared to the effects of the big compound lifts will have at first. Focus on the BIG 5-7 lifts first and master them, then add in the bull**** when your progress begins to slow or plateau completly.

To add...
I see nothing at all wrong with a few sets of arm work (smaller muscles groups). Every young guy wants to see some differences in the arms quickly, even if it is a little pumping to keep him interested and wanting to keep coming back. This can ensure he can make some progress and have a little something to look forward too at the end of a tough leg workout. If it is all big work all the time, that many find tougher or not real interested in at first motivation wanes fast.
Also, I don't see newbies using so much intensity and or loads/weight, that they cannot easily add in a few sets of arm work at the ends of a few W/O's. Recovery will not be that bad for them on the big stuff that they could not do some small stuff.
Of course, focus on the big 5-7 is always first and foremost.

 

[Aussteve]

EVERYONE has an imbalance, regardless of strength level. There's no magic weight at which you say "ok, you're strong enough, lets see where the problem is".

Address it NOW. The trainee's max is their max for a reason. So I take Joe who squats 225. Why 225? Is it leg strength? Core? Upper back?

With your "just lift" protocol, where do you propose we start bringing Joe's squat up?

I see what your saying but I'm assuming the trainee is totally fresh. To recognize a weakness one first has to identify the weakness! Only after a basic level of training has been reached can an objective assessment be reached and the appropriate program be prescribed!

I've been coaching track cycle sprinting for over 10 years and EVERY new athlete I get gets a very thorough assessment on form in the wgt room BEFORE I let them get anywhere near their 1rm. Had one lad who could squat 160 kg but had bad form so we spent the next 6 weeks with only 60kg on with the video camera going a lots of frustration on his behalf!! Anyway when he finally got it right he jumped up to 180kg !! Not bad for a 17 yr old eh

 

[Swanson52]

^^^^^ This is where the issue ITT lies. The OP has 3 years under his belt. Applying other situations to this one is an apples/oranges comparison.

I agree on assessment and loading up fresh trainees, but that wasnt the premise I was addressing, myself.

 

[Aussteve]

^^^^^ This is where the issue ITT lies. The OP has 3 years under his belt. Applying other situations to this one is an apples/oranges comparison.

I agree on assessment and loading up fresh trainees, but that wasnt the premise I was addressing, myself.

Yeah my bad mate, think we all got off topic a bit eh!?!?
To give an objective assessment for the op we need to know much much more about his training, diet, outside influences etc? I would say on the offset to give crossfit a miss as it's not going to give any mass gains and is only going to take away from recovery abilities! Can always slide it back in during a more of a cutting phase!? Recovery is the key ( that includes diet ) to any form if training, but we all know that!? I like how Mike Mentzer put it when he said ' we all only have 100 points of recovery and if a hard leg session takes out 50 points and then some deadlifts take out another 30 points we approach the 100 point threshold pretty quick'.

I still recommend the 20 rep squat prog over a period of 8-12 weeks , squatting twice a week! Caution though, 20 rep squats are very taxing on both the muscles AND the neurological system. Don't neglect your core work, and as already stated warming up seams to be absent from many bodybuilders programs!?!? Funny that from an athletic sports training point of view a good warm up and general mobility is mandatory and very rarely neglected!?!?

 

[Swanson52]

Agree. Lose the Crossfit for now. You're going to sabotage your progress everywhere by trying to serve too many masters.

 

[Rodja]

You can't identify an imbalance and weakness if you don't grow and get stronger first, respectively. -.-

That would be like saying you're going to try and fix a brand new car that you haven't even driven yet. Drive that bitch first then begin to tweak it when abnormalities begin to occur.

This is total bull****. You can identify an imbalance just by looking at someone if you're competent in the field, especially the humerus.

 

[jerrysiii]

You guys are more knowledgable than me, but unless the op has a competent coach, the mass gaining approach should be kept simple. I'd suggest sticking with the major compound lifts for now. Maybe post a video of your squat, deadlift, and overhead press for the experts here to critique. Then you could add the appropriate assistance work based on constructive feedback.

Oh yeah ... Eat!

 

[Aussteve]

You guys are more knowledgable than me, but unless the op has a competent coach, the mass gaining approach should be kept simple. I'd suggest sticking with the major compound lifts for now. Maybe post a video of your squat, deadlift, and overhead press for the experts here to critique. Then you could add the appropriate assistance work based on constructive feedback.

Oh yeah ... Eat!

Good call mate! Unless the op HAS got access to someone as qualified and expert as 'Rodja' then he is best sticking to the simple, tried and tested stuff
I like the idea of yours for op to post some vids of his form so ALL can have some input! Good call! ......... and ( only my personal opinion ) you CANNOT assess someone's athletic performance by just 'looking at them'. So many variables in exercise AND in human physiology!

 

[Rodja]

Good call mate! Unless the op HAS got access to someone as qualified and expert as 'Rodja' then he is best sticking to the simple, tried and tested stuff
I like the idea of yours for op to post some vids of his form so ALL can have some input! Good call! ......... and ( only my personal opinion ) you CANNOT assess someone's athletic performance by just 'looking at them'. So many variables in exercise AND in human physiology!

Where did I say athletic performance? I said imbalances, which can quickly be identified based on someone's posture (e.g. anterior pelvic tilt, internal rotation of the humerus, kyphosis, etc.). Weaknesses in the kinetic chain is not 100% the same thing and is a completely different topic.

 

[Aussteve]

Where did I say athletic performance? I said imbalances, which can quickly be identified based on someone's posture (e.g. anterior pelvic tilt, internal rotation of the humerus, kyphosis, etc.). Weaknesses in the kinetic chain is not 100% the same thing and is a completely different topic.

The basis of your argument is to identify imbalances is it not!? Maybe I was wrong then to assume that the purpose of recognizing an imbalance is to, or atleast on this forum, enhance athletic performance! I do agree with you that if everything is working 100 percent the way it's supposed to, from a physiological point of view, then athletic performance should be 100 percent relative to ability, BUT very few people out there are 100 percent and if you ***k to much with our basic setup it can be detrimental not enhancing! Like I said it's all about performance and ain't broke don't fix it ( injuries aside ) ! ......... Look at Michael Johnson, greatest 400m runner ever. His 'pelvic rotation' was insane but his performance was unbeatable! It comes down to individual physiology and how that manifests itself in performance and THAT can only be established through observation during the given exercise NOT before!

 

[Rodja]

The basis of your argument is to identify imbalances is it not!? Maybe I was wrong then to assume that the purpose of recognizing an imbalance is to, or atleast on this forum, enhance athletic performance! I do agree with you that if everything is working 100 percent the way it's supposed to, from a physiological point of view, then athletic performance should be 100 percent relative to ability, BUT very few people out there are 100 percent and if you ***k to much with our basic setup it can be detrimental not enhancing! Like I said it's all about performance and ain't broke don't fix it ( injuries aside ) ! ......... Look at Michael Johnson, greatest 400m runner ever. His 'pelvic rotation' was insane but his performance was unbeatable! It comes down to individual physiology and how that manifests itself in performance and THAT can only be established through observation during the given exercise NOT before!

In this long-winded babble, you added nothing. Every person on this planet is going to have some form of imbalance and, for newbies, these are going to be very apparent from the very beginning. Minor kyphosis, internal rotation of the humerus andor femur, anterior pelvic tilt, etc. can be observed without any exercise being done. To ignore these is only going to further the gap and create the environment for potential injuries in the near future.

 

[Aussteve]

In this long-winded babble, you added nothing. Every person on this planet is going to have some form of imbalance and, for newbies, these are going to be very apparent from the very beginning. Minor kyphosis, internal rotation of the humerus andor femur, anterior pelvic tilt, etc. can be observed without any exercise being done. To ignore these is only going to further the gap and create the environment for potential injuries in the near future.

Sorry was my ' long winded babble' too hard for you to understand!? You cannot assess performance without seeing the individual perform!?!? And it appears that all the other posters on this thread agree!? Like I said in one of my previous posts whenever I get a new athlete to coach I make my assessment of them DURING the given activity not before! Then the whole picture can be evaluated and an accurate program can be drawn up! Wether we need to correct imbalances , work on flexibility or simply bring up a lagging strength area/body part!
If a lad walks into his first session with me and he's walking like Quasimodo then yeah we can make some assumptions before we start! However if the boy gets under the bar and gives me 10 perfect reps at 200 kg I sure as he'll ain't gonna try and correct anything!

We might just have to agree to disagree mate, I don't want to pit the hate out there! You know you s*** and it's good to chat about stuff with someone who does

 

[PaulBlack]

I still recommend the 20 rep squat prog over a period of 8-12 weeks , squatting twice a week! Caution though, 20 rep squats are very taxing on both the muscles AND the neurological system. Don't neglect your core work, and as already stated warming up seams to be absent from many bodybuilders programs!?!? Funny that from an athletic sports training point of view a good warm up and general mobility is mandatory and very rarely neglected!?!?

I used to feel this way and have done quite a few 20 rep squats and deads, but I have slowly changed my mind, since allowing newbies to break into a king exercise like the squat or dead, with more manageable medium rep and multi set sequences, seems to show much better progress physically and mentally across the board for the average beginner. Getting up over 10+ reps with medium to heavy weight on ones back, has the higher propensity to become compromised by tiring out or fatiguing. I would too, take into consideration whether the trainee is more built for squatting and or pulling, as mixing in trap bar deads thru the week, can be just as good for a lankier built trainee.
It is also better IMO, to do more build up or frequency of (2x-3x-per week) and build the so called slower callous, instead of doing 20 reppers and having the trainee be wasted on any more hip or leg stuff thru the week.

 

[Aussteve]

Yeah I do agree with you mate! 20 reppers ARE one of the hardest things you can do! Op did say he has 3 yrs experience though and if this is true he should be good to go! Yes it does depend on his squatting ability/experience level and yes the trap bar deadlift is a fantastic alternative to squatting if he is more biomechanically suited. The thing that 20 reppers, when done correctly, teaches you is intensity and as we all know this is the key!! The intensity has to be taken into account and that's whey other exercises ate kept to a minimum! A good way I have done it in past is to up the wgt each week and to do 2 sessions a week. That way only one of the sessions per week is with the new wgt and the second is a consolidation session!
Still stand by them though as long as all the boxes are ticked first ! ( I've been a track sprint cyclist all my life and a coach for a long time so squatting hard is the basis of all our work in the wgt room so I'm a little biased I suppose )

 

[PaulBlack]

The thing that 20 reppers, when done correctly, teaches you is intensity and as we all know this is the key!!

Don't forget work ethic. I think if anything, they taught me to be okay with hard work and being uncomfortable.
Sure, intensity is a thing too, but I have been beat up with intensity doing 5x5 with 85% too and intensity can come from longer rep durations and also using singles.

The intensity has to be taken into account and that's whey other exercises ate kept to a minimum! A good way I have done it in past is to up the wgt each week and to do 2 sessions a week. That way only one of the sessions per week is with the new wgt and the second is a consolidation session!

There were times when I could hardly bend down to get plates 3 days after hard 20 rep sessions. Just hitting #135 x15-20 to aid recovery was plenty.

Still stand by them though as long as all the boxes are ticked first ! ( I've been a track sprint cyclist all my life and a coach for a long time so squatting hard is the basis of all our work in the wgt room so I'm a little biased I suppose )

This is also going to depend on goals of the lifters. 20 reppers are great sure, but not optimal for say PL'ers or guys who want real heavy singles. They just don't translate that well. And steady diets of them for long periods have guys intensity and CNS dimming IMO.
Also, edging up to them can be easier than just jumping in.

week 1 2x12
week 2 1x15
week 3 1x15 1x12
wk 4 1x20
wk 5 add wt 1x20
wk 6 add wt 1x20

wk 7 drop back to 2x12 and ramp back up again to a higher PR x20

This seems to stave off burnout better, as some trainees just don't want to keep screwing their head down tight (as Dr Ken says) week for these kinds of sets. It can help too, using the trap bar x20's to eck the squat x20's up.

 

[PROness]

EVERYONE has an imbalance, regardless of strength level. There's no magic weight at which you say "ok, you're strong enough, lets see where the problem is".

Address it NOW. The trainee's max is their max for a reason. So I take Joe who squats 225. Why 225? Is it leg strength? Core? Upper back?

With your "just lift" protocol, where do you propose we start bringing Joe's squat up?

To add; your example is fairly poor. We're taking a new car & adding stuff to make it perform better. Using your analogy (car) what good does it do to replace the intake if the fuel system is stock? Can't get enough gas. What of exhaust? We've improved air INTAKE, but now it can't get the combusted gasses out.

The body is a system. There's always a weakness. Always.

I never said there was, I said learn to address the issues before or when they arise. You can't just walk into a gym your first time BBing (I'm assuming the OP is a beginner because why would he be asking for mass advice otherwise?) or after a long hiatus of BBing and say I think I'll do Romanians today because my posterior chain is weak without first knowing what you're body is good at and bad at.

Why would I want to put an air intake on a new car? The point was if nothing's broke why fix it? You don't fix a car when see nothings wrong even though something may be, you fix it when you begin to see problems arising, same point here. Keep the lifts simple and adapt when problems begin to arise via accessory/auxillary lifts.

I don't know how to make my point any simpler. -.-

 

[Aussteve]

Totally agree with you! Only they do translate to 1 and 2,3 rm! In our off season we spend 8 weeks doing 20 reppers and only 8 weeks. We keep a diary from last years off season and start 30% below our last 20 rep session season before! All I ask of the group is to get 5-8% greater increase in ending wgt for the 8 weeks than the previous year! So we do 'ease' into it but then it's head down arse up for some hard work. Next phase is 10 day fellas and transition into 4,5,6 rep range. This lasts 3 weeks then into 1,2,3 rep range! All that strength IS carried on into the lower rep range periods from the 20 rep stuff!
When we drop down into the 4,5,6 range we start to add in rack deadlifts ( bar just above the knee ) as this is an excellent exercise for posterior chain development. It also mimics range of motion on the bike.
Then when we drop into 1,2,3 range we add in single leg leg press, hip knee ankle aligned and full ROM with no lockout. Again translates directly to the bike

Typical 20 rep session =
Stationary bike/rollers 20 min
60kg 15 reps
100 kg 8 reps
140 kg 4 reps
160 kg 2 reps
10% over target 20 rep wgt for 2 reps
Drop wgt back to 20 rep target wgt for 20 reps
15 min active recovery
Power cleans 60 kg 3-4 by 6 reps
Dips 3-4 by 8-10 BW
Shot put throws 20kg shot various throws for power
Done
Planned, structured and individualized for each trainee !

 

[Aussteve]

I never said there was, I said learn to address the issues before or when they arise. You can't just walk into a gym your first time BBing (I'm assuming the OP is a beginner because why would he be asking for mass advice otherwise?) or after a long hiatus of BBing and say I think I'll do Romanians today because my posterior chain is weak without first knowing what you're body is good at and bad at.

Why would I want to put an air intake on a new car? The point was if nothing's broke why fix it? You don't fix a car when see nothings wrong even though something may be, you fix it when you begin to see problems arising, same point here. Keep the lifts simple and adapt when problems begin to arise via accessory/auxillary lifts.

I don't know how to make my point any simpler. -.-

I so agree with you mate . That's the point I've been trying to make; you CANNOT correct something without first letting it manifest itself! Each and every person has a unique physiological makeup that will dictate athletic performance. Only once athletic performance is observed can we make an educated evaluation as to strengths, weaknesses and/or need for correction of form or physiological imbalances!!

 

[Swanson52]

I never said there was, I said learn to address the issues before or when they arise. You can't just walk into a gym your first time BBing (I'm assuming the OP is a beginner because why would he be asking for mass advice otherwise?) or after a long hiatus of BBing and say I think I'll do Romanians today because my posterior chain is weak without first knowing what you're body is good at and bad at.

Why would I want to put an air intake on a new car? The point was if nothing's broke why fix it? You don't fix a car when see nothings wrong even though something may be, you fix it when you begin to see problems arising, same point here. Keep the lifts simple and adapt when problems begin to arise via accessory/auxillary lifts.

I don't know how to make my point any simpler. -.-

Your point is exactly that, simple. I had a big, long response written up, but then I realized it'll all be lost on you. Saving bandwidth.

 

[PROness]

This is total bull****. You can identify an imbalance just by looking at someone if you're competent in the field, especially the humerus.

I never said you couldn't. What I'm saying is for those of us who do this as a hobby and not a job, we need more feedback. Come on, no one who is asking for advice on gaining mass is going to able to tell what their imbalances are just by looking at themselves, and they sure as hell aren't going to pay someone to.

Women lie, men lie, but the mirror and numbers don't lie. Haha

 

[PROness]

Your point is exactly that, simple. I had a big, long response written up, but then I realized it'll all be lost on you. Saving bandwidth.

I think you have a brain imbalance for trying to impose you're six paragraphs of nonsense on us. Now go play some Brain Age and do some curls to fix it.

Meanwhile I'll do some heavy deads because apparently I have some imbalances I'm not even concious of. Haha

 

[napalm]

stupid s.hit

Please stop spewing nonsense, you're making yourself look stupid...

 

[Swanson52]

I think you have a brain imbalance for trying to impose you're six paragraphs of nonsense on us. Now go play some Brain Age and do some curls to fix it.

Meanwhile I'll do some heavy deads because apparently I have some imbalances I'm not even concious of. Haha

Ok man. Whatever you say.

 

[PROness]

Please stop spewing nonsense, you're making yourself look stupid...

Haha nice quote.

I'm entitled to my opinion and ideas, I never said you guys had to like it or agree with it. I base my ideas off of my experiences, I don't live in the gym nor do I live on these forums (not to mention any names) or do I work in the exercise science field and take this way too serious. I do what works and share my experiences and mishaps with others. This is just a hobby.

Accessories have never really worked for me nor have I really ever done them and I have none of these dreadfully awful "muscular imbalances" so I fail to see why everyone's so up in arms over something that isn't a big deal. I'll stick to my guns till the end.

 

[PROness]

Ok man. Whatever you say.

I'm still waiting for your book of a post on why I'm wrong Better get to work. ;|

 

[Swanson52]

I'm still waiting for your book of a post on why I'm wrong Better get to work. ;|

There's seriously no point. You posted above that you're not an expert, not a competitor, not a student, so what good is me telling you anything going to do? You're absolutely, incontrovertibly wrong, but you said yourself that you'll "stick to your guns", so...why bother?

 

[napalm]

incontrovertibly

Bear, are you sure that's a word?