Carb Back-Loading - CBL experts please review this diet

jerrysiii

jerrysiii

Member
Purchased and read Kiefer's book on Friday and finished today. I'm going to give this a go using the "Density Bulking" objective.

6 ft, 178lbs, ~11% bf, 42 yo. Currently eating 3,200 kcal (30/45/25)

Comments and suggestions from the CBL experts welcome. No need for posts from those that don't agree with the diet in general. I'm also a bit skeptical, but have decide to give this a real chance. I'll evaluate for two weeks and then decide if I will continue or abandon based on results.

calcarbproteinfat
Meal 1 (8am, 11am)
coffee41
½ scoop whey iso5612
3 tsp coconut oil11715
onion / pepper41
mushroom41
spinach82
2 egg (whole)1421210
2 egg whites5010
3 slice canadian bacon1341186
51965231
Meal 2 (2pm)
10 oz chicken breast312635
6 fish oil caps546
asparagus3123
broccoli3123
42846911
Meal 3 (pwo – 5:30pm)
3 tsp coconut oil – pre-wo11715
leucine, creatine, caffeine
2 scoop whey iso2262502
1 cup almond milk4424
2 cup corn flakes202484
2 cup frosted flakes286704
8751225821
Meal 4 (7pm)
7 oz chicken breast218444
16 oz red potato3206416
1 tsp olive oil405
¼ cup ketchup58151
4 oz pretzels42488124
1,0601677313
Meal 5 (8:30pm)
1 scoop casein1131251
1 scoop greens powder30421
½ cup almond milk2212
2 low-fat waffles1653152
1 lg. banana128311
¼ cup blueberries215
1 cup low fat ice cream2404246
2 tbs maple syrup10426
2 tbs whipped cream182
8411413714
TOTALS3,72344028990
47%31%22%

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Edit: Fixed formula. Totals were wrong before.
 
Here's the non-training day menu:

calcarbproteinfat
Meal 1 (8am, 10am)
coffee
½ scoop whey iso5612
3 tsp coconut oil11715
onion / pepper41
mushroom41
spinach82
2 egg (whole)1421210
2 egg whites5010
3 slice canadian bacon1341186
51555231
Meal 2 (1pm)
10 oz chicken breast312635
6 fish oil caps546
asparagus3123
broccoli3123
20 almonds1254511
55387422
Meal 3 (5:30pm)
1 scoop whey iso1131251
1 scoop casein1131251
1 cup almond milk4424
3 tsp coconut oil11715
¼ cup heavy cream2052122
59265143
Meal 4 (7pm)
10 oz 99% lean turkey313666
2 egg whites5010
broccoli3123
zucchini2042
onion / pepper41
mushroom41
4 oz avocado1808416
602168522
Meal 5 (8:30pm)
2 hard boiled egg15421210
2 egg whites5010
1 tbs olive oil11914
1 scoop casein1131251
43634725
TOTALS2,69838309143
6%46%48%

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Ok, I was hoping for some feedback, but I'll log it anyway. I started yesterday using the non-training menu. I strength train on Mon, Tue, Wed, Thr, Sat. So Fri and Sun will be the only days I don't backload.

Training is a modified 5/3/1. I added a direct back day using weighted pull-ups and the 5/3/1 parameters. After my work sets I do either 7x4 or 8x3 with the last weight on the bar. I then do 8 to 12 sets of assistance work.

Starting info:
Weight: 176.4 lbs
BF: 11.5%
Waist: 31.75"
Bench Press: 240x8
Squat: 205x22 (recently reset)
Shoulder Press: 150x4
Deadlift: 310x10

Goals
This will be a short two-week evaluation that may continue if results look good. I'm not expecting dramatic results in such a short time. I'd like to gain about 2lbs without any noticeable increase in body fat. I'm also looking for a moderate increase in strength.

I'll try to update frequently. Weight and BF will be recorded on Monday mornings.

It's now 8:30am and I'm drinking the "Kiefer Coffee". This definitely help with hunger yesterday and hope it will do so today as well. I'm coming off a typical 7-meals-per-day plan and like to eat! I tried IF a couple of years ago and hated the feeling for starving myself until later afternoon. I think CBL will be much better with the allowance of some food in the pre-training period.

I'm in week 1 of a new 5/3/1 mesocycle. Tonight will be bench press.

Side note: AM rules for attachments and links are a little ridiculous. I've been here for years but only post when I think I can add something to a thread. I'd put up some photos otherwise.
 
Just finished today's workout. I won't bore everyone with details on every set. I'll only post the last 5/3/1 work set:

Bench Press 220x12

Had a slight headache during the workout, but was able to push through.

Pre-workout: 3 tsp of coconut oil, 250mg caffeine, and 750mg agmatine.
Intra-workout: 1/2 scoop whey iso, 3gm leucine, 5gm creatine and 1/2 crystal light packet for flavor.
Post-worout: 250mg caffeine, 5gm leucine and the meal #3 listed in the first post

I'm also going to add 5gm leucine to meals 4 & 5

Peri-workout nutrition will be the same for every training day so I'll only post if it changes.
 
Was a little bloated last night before bed, but by morning everything was back to normal.

Scale weight was up about 3lbs this morning -- obviously mostly water from the carb-up. I feel good and still look lean, but one day will not tell much.

Tonight is squats. I'll update later with workout totals.
 
I'm currently utilizing this program as well. Your meal plans look good. If you feel bloated you may want to cut your carbs a little. Are you supplementing with creatine and leucine as well? On non training days look into adding some rice to one of your last meals. This is about my third week on it and so far I'm really liking it. My calories are closer to 2500 though a day.
 
diezel said:
I'm currently utilizing this program as well. Your meal plans look good. If you feel bloated you may want to cut your carbs a little. Are you supplementing with creatine and leucine as well? On non training days look into adding some rice to one of your last meals. This is about my third week on it and so far I'm really liking it. My calories are closer to 2500 though a day.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the feedback. I'm a little bloated at night, but the morning was fine. Lets see if tomorrow morning is the same. If I get any morning bloat, I'll definitely cut back the carbs.

Yes, creatine 5gm pre and 5gm post, leucine 3gm intra, 5gm with each of the three post-workout meals. Also 250mg caffeine pre and post.

I'll try Fri and Sun (non-training days) as outlined. If I feel weak on Sat or Mon workouts, I'll add some rice as you suggest.

At 2,500 kcal I assume you're doing the "strength accumulation" version. What kind of results are you seeing?

-----

Tonight's training:

Energy level was GREAT! Strong squat day: 205x20
 
I've gained about 4lbs so far, and am hitting regular PRs. I feel pretty lean as well. I think it's a good program.
 
diezel said:
I've gained about 4lbs so far, and am hitting regular PRs. I feel pretty lean as well. I think it's a good program.
Click to expand...

If you don't mind me asking, what are your stats? You gained over 1lb per week at 2,500 kcal?? Wow! I'd be losing weight for sure at that level.
 
I'm 5'10, 195. I'm sure there are some days my calories are closer to 3,000 but I wouldn't say many.
 
Another strong workout today. Weighted pull-ups: BW+25lb x 14.

I may make some small adjustments to the diet tomorrow to more closely match the parameters in the book. These should be minor, but I'll post the changes tomorrow once I work them out.

Overall I feel great. Excited to see my weight, bf, and waist measurements on Monday.
 
So I learned last night that every low-carb meal is supposed to 1:1 protein to fat grams. I reformulated both training and non-training menus (the non-training had to be completely rewritten). Basically the low-carb periods are true keotogenic high fat.

Training days: 1:1 grams pro/fat for each low-carb meal. 1:1 calories pro/fat for the daily total. Carbs are at 2.4x target body weight. 3,865 kcal 47% cho / 26% pro / 28% fat

Non-training: 1:1 grams pro/fat for each low-carb meal. 2,918 kcal 7% cho / 30% pro / 63% fat

I'll post the menus if anyone is interested.

---

Tonight's workout was shoulder press. I'm a little sore from yesterday's back work. However, it was still a strong workout: 140x6

Overall, I feel good. Plenty of energy and surprisingly not hungry during the low-carb part of the day. Still mentally adjusting to diet. I'm used to very high protein with low to moderate carbs and fat. Eating several teaspoons of coconut oil per day (12 tsp today) seems very strange. Of course pounding tons of high glycemic carbs at night also seems strange.
 
Not quite as much energy for today's training. This is probably due to yesterday being an ultra low carb day. I may add a small amount of carbs to the last meal on Friday so I have more energy for next Saturday's workout.

The ULC day went fine. Not too hungry or tired.

Today was dead lifts: 285x12 (should have been able to get at least 14 -- not great)

Tomorrow is also ULC. Next post will be on Monday. It will include updates for weight, bf, and waist.
 
murk01 said:
U look like u might be under 11%bf in ur avatar
Click to expand...

That was this summer. I think I was just under 10%. Been on a very slow lean bulk since then. I weighed about 167lb in that photo.
 
End of Week 1:
Weight: 177.6 lbs (+1.2lbs)
BF: 11.7% (+0.2%)
Waist: 31.75"

Based on the above, I gained 0.7lbs lean mass and 0.5lbs fat. I will not read too much into this as it is only one week. Also, the accuracy of my BF reading is somewhat questionable. With that said, I do appear to be just bit softer.

I plan on running the diet exactly the same this week. The only change is I've swapped out the pretzels for rice pudding -- same calories and carb grams.
 
Bolanrox said:
i know a few powerlifters who are running it and seem to be pretty happy with the results FYIW
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I'm glad to hear this. One of my goals of this two week experiment is to gain some strength. I'm several cycles into 5/3/1 so an increase in strength will be noticeable and quantifiable.
 
I wouldn't have jumped from 3200 to 3700.. I never go above 100-200 surplus...a 500 surplus will get you your 2lbs in 2 hrs practically.. and most of its fat... or do you eat and sleep on a cardio machine? I'm the same height and at 2500 cals daily I drop to 180lbs 10% fat... but at 3200cals currently I'm 205+lbs and just under 12% fat.. I know its not 'weight' you're going for, but either you have the fastest metabolism on earth and/or killing yourself with cardio or you need to drop some those junky foods in the list and you wont have to spend endless hours at cardio. I do 3days wk weights, and on my off 4 off days I do simple cardio, 2 days of 4min tabata and 2 days 14min jog/walk on a treadmill which burns 150-200cals tops.. If I was eating 3700cals i'd easily be weighing in at 215lbs in a month or so or are you a cyclist? .. like why bother with a thread if you're looking at 2lbs....frigs..ppl eat that much in a mouthful. If you're like the way you look now, then just stick with your original diet and UP your calories 100-150.... Bringing in a completely new diet is not the way to say "I want to gain 2lbs"... just eat 1/2 slice of pizza 50-75g with your regular diet and you'll have 2lbs in a short while.
 
Ok, first I guess I need to clear up some misconceptions:

1) The goal of this experiment is not to gain 2lbs, its to objectively evaluate carb back-loading. 2Lbs of LBM with very little fat gain and a moderate increase in strength are how I'll determine if it was a success for me. If it is successful, I will continue the diet for at least four more weeks.

2) My cardio routine is 15 minutes of incline walk at 3.6mph / 13.5% incline. I do this fasted in the morning five days per week.

3) I agree that the food choices on my menus are very unconventional for a bodybuilding diet. I would normally never eat these foods. However, believe it or not, each item was chosen specially and purposefully to be in accordance with this diet.

If you are at all interested in it, check out some of Keifer's writings and pod casts. This guy is not a hack and there is a scientific method to his madness.

Now, I'm not saying that I fully believe in this approach, but it obviously intrigued me enough to give it an honest evaluation. I've chosen not to deviate or try to tweak his diet at all. I'm following strictly according to the author's outline.
 
Energy level for today's training was surprising very good seeing that yesterday was ULC.

Bench Press: 230x10 -- felt good and almost got 11 reps
 
Subbed..looking into running CBL in a few weeks
 
Also, did you do the depletion phase?
 
Strong squat workout: 220x17 -- a little bit of rest/pause going on with these high rep sets, but I'll still count it at 17 reps
 
Okay so your diet is good but I definetely think it could be better. Where are your healthy fats? I think you should add some avocado on your list as well as some healthy fats. Almonds are a great source for healthy fats also Organic Extra Virgin Olive Oil is another way to get healthy fats in. I think if you add these two things you will greatly benefit from them. Keep your diet clean and watch the size of your portions for sure.
 
MuscleGauge1 said:
Okay so your diet is good but I definetely think it could be better. Where are your healthy fats? I think you should add some avocado on your list as well as some healthy fats. Almonds are a great source for healthy fats also Organic Extra Virgin Olive Oil is another way to get healthy fats in. I think if you add these two things you will greatly benefit from them. Keep your diet clean and watch the size of your portions for sure.
Click to expand...
I agree with your suggestions from an overall health perspective. Keep in mind this is an experimental diet and not something I would do indefinitely regardless of the results -- at least not without some modification.

Again, for this two week experiment I've chosen not deviate from the author's outline. This is the only way to fairly evaluate the diet.

Keifer suggests that fats come predominately from coconut oil and meat.

I have given some thought on how to make this diet more healthy. If I decide to continue beyond two weeks I'll switch out the coconut oil in meal #2 for evoo. Next, I'd add some vegetables to meal #4. I'd also eliminate the junk from meal #5 and replace with healthier alternatives. I may include some complex carbs in the back-load, but would use a GDA one hour after my last meal to help clear glucose prior to bed. With these minor modifications I'd still be very close to the the author's plan.
 
murk01 said:
How bout coconut butter, i have seen it around never tried it, and how would u use it?
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I just looked up the nutrition info for coconut butter. It contains some carbs, but most of them are fiber. This may work ok as well. I assume it is also mostly MTCs, which is what you want.
 
Shoulder press: 145x4 -- was hoping for 5 or 6

Energy was good, but I'm a little sore from yesterday's back work. Luckily tomorrow is an off day. Going to skip cardio also and take a complete day of rest. This will also give me an extra half hour of sleep. I want to be well rested for deadlifts on Saturday.


Edit: Checked my training log last night. The weight was actually 145.
 
Yesterday was deadlifts: 300x13

I'll post my updated weight, bf, and waist measurement tomorrow. This will also complete the two week evaluation.

I'll probably make some small modifications and continue the diet for another 6 weeks. However I'm going to end the log due to lack of interest.
 
End of 2 Week Evaluation:

Start:
Weight: 176.4 lbs
BF: 11.5%
Waist: 31.75"
Bench Press: 240x8
Squat: 205x22 (recently reset)
Shoulder Press: 150x4
Deadlift: 310x10

End:
Weight: 178.6 lbs (+1.0lbs from last week, +2.1lbs from start)
BF: 11.8% (+0.1% from last week, +0.3% from start)
Waist: 32.00" (+0.25" from last week, +0.25" from start)
Bench Press: 245x6
Squat: 220x17
Shoulder Press: 145x4
Deadlift: 300x13

I gained 1.4lbs lean mass and 0.8lbs fat. Again, the accuracy of my BF reading is somewhat questionable. But overall I think this is fairly accurate given the 0.25" increase in my waist. This equates to a weight increase ratio of 65% LBM to 35% fat.

For me this is just about in line with what I would expect from any mass gaining diet. I was not able, at least in this two week experiment, to achieve the author's "holy grail" claim of lean mass without fat gain. However, even in writing this I'm hesitant to draw too many conclusions because I've only given the diet two weeks and many dietary changes take a few weeks to show optimum results.

Strength does not appear to have increase by a meaningful amount. On the other hand, my energy level for my workouts feel good. As with the body composition, it is difficult to draw too many conclusion after 2 weeks.

On a positive note, the amount and types of foods that I'm eating on this diet is out of the ordinary for me as well as most people on a typical bb style diet. So this in itself provides a fun change of pace without any detrimental consequences.

I've decide to continue for at least a couple of more weeks. I'm ending the log today, but may provide one more update at the end of my second 2 week run if there is something of interest to report.
 
Please let us know how the next two weeks go. I'm following!
 

Week 3:
Weight: 179.3 lbs (+0.7lbs from last week, +2.8lbs from start)
BF: 11.8% (+0.0% from last week, +0.3% from start)
Waist: 32.00" (+0.00" from last week, +0.25" from start)

It was a good week. Weight is up 0.7lbs without any noticeable fat gain. There were a couple of changes:

First, I cut back on the carb back-load meals slightly by removing one cup of cereal from the post workout and reducing the potatoes at dinner to 8 oz.

I also switched to a four day training schedule. By doing this I now have three ultra-low carb days and four back-load days.

Note: Last week included Thanksgiving which ended up becoming a "mega" back-load day. I still followed the diet by being ultra-low carb in the morning. I trained around 2pm and did not eat carbs until dinner which was around 5:30pm. The rest of the night included two full plates of Thanksgiving dinner and two rounds of deserts.
 
jerrysiii said:
So I learned last night that every low-carb meal is supposed to 1:1 protein to fat grams. I reformulated both training and non-training menus (the non-training had to be completely rewritten). Basically the low-carb periods are true keotogenic high fat.

Training days: 1:1 grams pro/fat for each low-carb meal. 1:1 calories pro/fat for the daily total. Carbs are at 2.4x target body weight. 3,865 kcal 47% cho / 26% pro / 28% fat

Non-training: 1:1 grams pro/fat for each low-carb meal. 2,918 kcal 7% cho / 30% pro / 63% fat

I'll post the menus if anyone is interested.

---

Tonight's workout was shoulder press. I'm a little sore from yesterday's back work. However, it was still a strong workout: 140x6

Overall, I feel good. Plenty of energy and surprisingly not hungry during the low-carb part of the day. Still mentally adjusting to diet. I'm used to very high protein with low to moderate carbs and fat. Eating several teaspoons of coconut oil per day (12 tsp today) seems very strange. Of course pounding tons of high glycemic carbs at night also seems strange.
Click to expand...


On low carb meals you are supposed to be 1:1 fat grams to protein grams? or is it 1:1 fat calories to protein calories?
 
hossjob said:
On low carb meals you are supposed to be 1:1 fat grams to protein grams? or is it 1:1 fat calories to protein calories?
Click to expand...

It's 1:1 grams. If you are really looking to cut you can go as low as 0.5:1 fat grams to protein.

Sorry, I haven't updated here lately. If anyone is interested in more timely updates check out my log at dangerouslyhardcore (it's linked a few posts back).

Edit: Well I thought the link was there. Anyway, here it is: Invalid Link Removed
 
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