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PH/EC Cycle

java568

Member
Stats:
23yr old, 5'8'', 175lb, ~11% BF (trying to get shredded), lifting for 5yrs

Would be my first PH cycle. Please critique as much as possible; hoping for a decent recomp cycle.

I have run ECA before with no problems on BP. Would this be too much of a strain on my BP? I will be probably doing an IF diet, and will post both diet and workout after making sure my cycle is perfect.

Was thinking:

  • Week 1-2: Cycle Support & Begin EC Stack (using standard EC routine as described in HotNFit)
  • Week 2-3: Cycle Support | Havoc 30mg | Hawthorne Berry | Fish Oil | BCAAs | Whey
  • Week 3-7: Cycle Support | Havoc 40mg| Hawthorne Berry | Fish Oil | BCAAs | Whey
  • Week 7-9: Cycle Support | Nolvadex 20mg (OR CLOMID??) | Lean Xtreme | Fish Oil | BCAAs | Whey | *Stop EC stack *
  • Week 9-11: Cycle Support | Nolvadex 20mg (OR CLOMID??) | Lean Xtreme | Fish Oil | BCAAs | Whey

Thoughts on Cycle Support vs Life Support vs Cycle Assist on this type of cycle?

Do I need something like Retain or Liver Longer? I have a joint supplement on hand.
 
Is there something really stupid in my post or do I just not have enough reps to get replies?

I have high reps on a different but similar forum (BB) and don't mind repping people there for their help if you'd like to PM me (as long as this isn't against the rules...).

Was hoping to buy everything this week and start in 2 weeks.

Thanks!
 
Easy bud, for the most part theres no rhyme or reason to what order things get replied to in.

I'm not sure about the ECA stack while on cycle, maybe someone who's done that before will chime in. You may be okay considering you have cycle assist along with some extra hawthorn berry planned. Look into some Celery Seed or Grape Seed Extract if you want even more bp support.

As far as the rest of your cycle, I'd make sure to preload the hawthorn berry for a week or two before you start anything else, even the ECA. On the nolva, make sure you taper it down. A common dosing scheme is four weeks at 20/20/10/10. If you want to go six weeks on it maybe start 30 the first week and then add another week EOD at 10 at the end.
 
Also, try to put your cycle in a more easily readable format. Maybe its just me but I'm having trouble understanding some of the timing.

With the havoc you're going 30/40/40/40/40/40?
 
Easy bud, for the most part theres no rhyme or reason to what order things get replied to in.

I'm not sure about the ECA stack while on cycle, maybe someone who's done that before will chime in. You may be okay considering you have cycle assist along with some extra hawthorn berry planned. Look into some Celery Seed or Grape Seed Extract if you want even more bp support.

As far as the rest of your cycle, I'd make sure to preload the hawthorn berry for a week or two before you start anything else, even the ECA. On the nolva, make sure you taper it down. A common dosing scheme is four weeks at 20/20/10/10. If you want to go six weeks on it maybe start 30 the first week and then add another week EOD at 10 at the end.

lol sorry if that second post sounded whiny

This is what I was thinking for Havoc: 30/30/40/40/40/40
I'll also take your advice and do the nolva: 20/20/10/10

Is there a need for lean extreme during the PCT? I don't feel the need to go six weeks, but I do feel like I might need more supplements for my PCT like Organ Shield or something?

What if I start Cycle Assist, Hawthorn, and Grape Seed Extract 2 weeks before the cycle and then start the ECA and Havoc at the same time?
 
lol sorry if that second post sounded whiny

This is what I was thinking for Havoc: 30/30/40/40/40/40
I'll also take your advice and do the nolva: 20/20/10/10

Is there a need for lean extreme during the PCT? I don't feel the need to go six weeks, but I do feel like I might need more supplements for my PCT like Organ Shield or something?

What if I start Cycle Assist, Hawthorn, and Grape Seed Extract 2 weeks before the cycle and then start the ECA and Havoc at the same time?

No worries man I always get a little antsy when I'm about to start a cycle. Dosing scheme for havoc looks good, you could taper it up even higher (50 or 60 mg) towards the end if you wanted to, but there will likely be no need as this is your first go-around.

No, there isn't any need to run the lean xtreme during PCT, but if you already have it, it wouldn't be a bad addition as you're looking to lean up as much as possible and its an effective cortisol controller.

Some people like to run cycle assist all the way through PCT, I've never done it and don't find it necessary, but I wouldn't tell somebody not to if you feel like doing it. I would, however, recommend adding DAA as a test booster in your Post Cycle, and also possibly Erase or some other sort of AI.

As for the last part of that last post, I actually liked your idea of adding the EC stack and Havoc one at a time. I know you said you've run it before without any blood pressure problems, but I feel like this way might give you the greatest chance at making sure you don't have any again this time. Run the Hawthorne Berry and CSE for either 1 or 2 weeks, then add the EC stack, while obviously continuing the HB and CSE. Then start your actual cycle from there.

Week 1: Preload Hawthorn Berry and Celery Seed Extract
Week 2: Continue preloading HB and CSE, add EC Stack.
Week 3-8: All of the above plus cycle assist and havoc 30/30/40/40/40/40
 
Do I need something like Retain or Liver Longer? I have a joint supplement on hand.

Just remembered seeing this. What joint supplement are you referring to? Throwing it in is probably a good idea as this will be a pretty dry cycle. Liver Longer is pretty tough to come by right now, but adding some UDCA/TUDCA would be a good idea, although I wouldn't call it completely necessary for a havoc solo cycle.
 
SERMs are also hepatotoxic so it is beneficial to run cycle supports all the way through PCT. I'd personally go with Nolva, oppose to Clomid, for my SERM of choice.
 
SERMs are also hepatotoxic so it is beneficial to run cycle supports all the way through PCT. I'd personally go with Nolva, oppose to Clomid, for my SERM of choice.

So if my on-cycle support was something like TUDCA plus HB, CSE, and Saw Palmetto all dosed separately, would that still be beneficial to run all the way through PCT?

I'm mostly referring to the TUDCA, as I've heard different things regarding how long it should be taken for, and also that it may actually be slightly damaging to your liver if taking it while not on some type of ph/ds compound. Though in typing this out and thinking about it more, the SERM would be replacing the ph/ds as the hepatotoxic compound being introduced to your body.

Sorry for those thoughts being a little scattered, does it sound like my line of thinking is at least going in the right direction?
 
So if my on-cycle support was something like TUDCA plus HB, CSE, and Saw Palmetto all dosed separately, would that still be beneficial to run all the way through PCT?

I'm mostly referring to the TUDCA, as I've heard different things regarding how long it should be taken for, and also that it may actually be slightly damaging to your liver if taking it while not on some type of ph/ds compound. Though in typing this out and thinking about it more, the SERM would be replacing the ph/ds as the hepatotoxic compound being introduced to your body.

Sorry for those thoughts being a little scattered, does it sound like my line of thinking is at least going in the right direction?
I'd continue running everything for at least part of the PCT, they'll speed up the recovery progress for blood pressure/lipids/etc. The goal is to get everything back to normal as soon as possible.

I know very little about TUDCA. However, I do think a SERM would 'replace' the PH as the hepatotoxic compound.
 
I'd continue running everything for at least part of the PCT, they'll speed up the recovery progress for blood pressure/lipids/etc. The goal is to get everything back to normal as soon as possible.

I know very little about TUDCA. However, I do think a SERM would 'replace' the PH as the hepatotoxic compound.

Right on, thank you for the advice.

Do look into TUDCA though, it seems like its quickly becoming a favorite for on cycle liver support, especially with people running a lot of harsher compounds. NP has a TUDCA product, though its out of stock currently. Aegis by Antaeus Labs is the only TUDCA supplement readily available right now, and I know their website has a lot of information on it. Liver Longer was the first TUDCA supplement I believe. Looking into UDCA may also be beneficial, it is currently the only FDA approved drug to treat cirrhosis (wikipedia, so take that citation for what its worth). TUDCA is a taurine-conjugated metabolite of UDCA so they function essentially the same.
 
Right on, thank you for the advice.

Do look into TUDCA though, it seems like its quickly becoming a favorite for on cycle liver support, especially with people running a lot of harsher compounds. NP has a TUDCA product, though its out of stock currently. Aegis by Antaeus Labs is the only TUDCA supplement readily available right now, and I know their website has a lot of information on it. Liver Longer was the first TUDCA supplement I believe. Looking into UDCA may also be beneficial, it is currently the only FDA approved drug to treat cirrhosis (wikipedia, so take that citation for what its worth). TUDCA is a taurine-conjugated metabolite of UDCA so they function essentially the same.

Yeah, I will definitely look into TUDCA. I've actually read about UDCA before but I wasn't sure what the correlation between the two was.
 
Yeah, I will definitely look into TUDCA. I've actually read about UDCA before but I wasn't sure what the correlation between the two was.

I'm sure theres a better explanation than what I can come up with, but from a functional standpoint for what we'd use it for, they're pretty much the same. Research chem UDCA can also be found right now.
 
I'm sure theres a better explanation than what I can come up with, but from a functional standpoint for what we'd use it for, they're pretty much the same. Research chem UDCA can also be found right now.
TUDCA sounds like a better alternative to the research chem then, which I was considering using for my next cycle.
 
I will run Assist all the way through in that case. Do you believe Cycle Assist is the best of the three products or are they all about the same?

As far as my joint supplement, I have not decided. I will use alflutop if things become really bad (have used it before).

Does anyone use [FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial]Sulfasalazine[/FONT] to treat possible liver problems? It used to be sold in a tablet called "Liver Cure".
 
TUDCA sounds like a better alternative to the research chem then, which I was considering using for my next cycle.

I definitely think so, some of the research chem sites recently lowered their prices in order to closer compete with Aegis, but normally its a lot more expensive for IMO not more effective of a product. The NP TUDCA is the same as the old Liver Longer (TUDCA only), but Aegis also includes Polyenylphosphatidylcholine (PPC), which uhh. Well I'm not gonna try to bs you here but I'm assuming theres a reason Antaeus included it, I haven't done my homework on that part of the compound.

Right now I believe that Aegis is the TUDCA product to go with, although when NP gets their product back I will be stocking up on that as it is considerably cheaper.
 
I will run Assist all the way through in that case. Do you believe Cycle Assist is the best of the three products or are they all about the same?

As far as my joint supplement, I have not decided. I will use alflutop if things become really bad (have used it before).

Does anyone use [FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial]Sulfasalazine[/FONT] to treat possible liver problems? It used to be sold in a tablet called "Liver Cure".

Man you're really testing my google search function with that post, I can honestly say I've never heard of either of those two. The alflutop looks like something a little more heavy-duty than what I was going to suggest, which was hitting the fish oil and glucosamine hard, and if that doesn't work then looking into some bulk cissus powder.

As far as the Cycle Assist vs. Cycle Support vs. Life Support, go with whatever you can find the cheapest because within a small margin I think they're pretty much the same products. I believe two of them are pills and one is a powder, so if that preference plays in at all go with whichever you prefer.

As far as the Sulfasalazine, like I said I've never seen or heard of that being used.
 
A quick look back at the OP reminds me that you already had fish oil planned in, remember to dose the fish oil (fats in general) with your havoc to increase absorption.
 
Hahaha ya those are some old-school substances (I was into the peptide/rchem scene a few years ago). How would one dose Aegis?

I have tons of fish oil, glucosamine, Chondroitin, MSM, and Cissus. I did not know about dosing the fish oil with havoc, will definitely do that.

Thanks for all your help; wish I had more reps to give you guys.
 
Hahaha ya those are some old-school substances (I was into the peptide/rchem scene a few years ago). How would one dose Aegis?

I have tons of fish oil, glucosamine, Chondroitin, MSM, and Cissus. I did not know about dosing the fish oil with havoc, will definitely do that.

Thanks for all your help; wish I had more reps to give you guys.

Theres still some debate/discrepancies on how I'm seeing people dose Aegis/TUDCA. I believe the (limited) research suggests something like 10-15mg/kg per day, which is way higher than I've seen anybody dose it, but also IIRC that study was done with people who already had liver disease. I'll see if I can dig up where I've seen that study before. Some are saying that Aegis doesn't need to be dosed as high due to the PPC, some are saying it should still be dosed as high as plain TUDCA.

Antaeus recommends dosing two capsules twice per day, which would give you 500 mg TUDCA with 1200 mg PPC, which is similar to what NP recommended with their TUDCA product. Antaeus also warns against taking more than 6 capsules (750 mg) daily. 500 mg per day seems to be the most commonly run dosage, although seeing some bloodwork starting to come back, good results are being had with even 250mg per day. Just as a side note, Hepatopro, which is a PPC only product, contains 900 mg PPC and recommends dosing one softgel twice to three times daily.

As you can see, the advice for dosing this is all over the place. For this cycle, I think two capsules of Aegis (250mg TUDCA) would provide more than adequate liver protection. I think that Jake (Antaeus) has said TUDCA-type products can be taken at the same time as ph/ds, which is opposed to how one would dose milk thistle.


haha and don't worry about the reps man, I'm just getting started on here too.
 
Also, I found the study that I semi-referred to in my last post. I feel like I've already sort of filled this thread with some semi-off topic stuff, so I'll wait for javas permission before I post what I've found from the study/clog up his thread even more. I could just be missing it but I haven't seen it posted up anywhere else on AM.
 
Please feel free to post anything. Your discussion so far has been very helpful.

Cool man thank you, well here it is. It's sourced from the steroidology forum (unsure if I can link to/mention other forums) so I can't really take any credit for finding it.
 
Ursodeoxycholic acid (UDCA) is a white or almost white powder. It is practically insoluble in water, readily soluble in alcohol, sparingly soluble in acetone, in chloroform and in ether. It melts at 200 - 204°C. The IUPAC chemical name of UDCA is 3a, 7***946;-dihydroxy-5-cholan-24-oic acid. Its CAS number is 128-13-2. Ursofalk Capsule contains ursodeoxycholic acid 250mg, maize starch, colloidal silicon dioxide, magnesium stearate, gelatin and titanium dioxide.

PHARMACOLOGY
Pharmacodynamic properties
The mechanism of action of UDCA in liver and cholestatic disorders has not yet been explained totally. However, UDCA alters bile acid composition, resulting in increases in the concentration of UDCA and decreases in the concentrations of the more hydrophobic and potentially toxic bile acids, cholic and chenodeoxycholic acids. UDCA also has a choleretic effect, resulting in increased bile acid output and bile flow. There is some evidence for immunological effects, including a reduction of abnormal expression of HLA Class I antigens on hepatocytes and a suppression of immunoglobulin and cytokine production.

Pharmacokinetic Properties
UDCA occurs naturally in the body. After oral administration of a single 500 mg dose of UDCA to healthy volunteers, peak plasma concentrations were 7 to 16 µM. Tmax occurs at 60 minutes and a second peak plasma concentration occurs at 180 minutes. After oral administration of 250 mg, 500 mg, 1000 mg and 2000 mg single doses, respective absorption rates were 60.3%, 47.7%, 30.7% and 20.7% based on recovery from bile within 24 hours in patients with external biliary drainage.

In plasma, protein binding is 96 - 98%.

First pass extraction of UDCA from the portal vein by the liver ranges from 50 - 70%. UDCA is conjugated to glycine and taurine and then excreted into bile and passes to the small bowel. In the intestine, some conjugates are deconjugated and reabsorbed in the terminal ileum. Conjugates may also be dehydroxylated to lithocholic acid, part of which is absorbed, sulphated by the liver and excreted by the biliary tract. In healthy volunteers given UDCA 500 mg with 14C tracer, 30 - 44% of the dose was excreted in faeces in the first three days as UDCA (2 - 4%), lithocholic acid (37%) and 7-ketolithocholic acid (5%).

The biological half-life of orally administered UDCA is 3.5 - 5.8 days.

In patients with severe liver disease, renal excretion becomes a major route for elimination of bile acids.

Clinical Trials
Primary Biliary Cirrhosis
Five pivotal randomised, double-blind control studies examined the efficacy of ursodeoxycholic acid in the treatment of primary biliary cirrhosis. All 5 trials were of at least 2 years follow-up. Four of the five studies used a dosage in the range of 10 - 15 mg/kg/day; the fifth trial used a significantly lower dose of 7.7 ± 0.2 mg/kg/day. Significant improvement in some or all biochemical tests of liver function was shown in subjects given UDCA during the treatment period. Symptom improvement or improvement in histology were not consistently reported with UDCA but longer survival without liver transplantation was reported in two long term studies. One of the studies reported that the efficacy of UDCA in patients with primary biliary cirrhosis was greater in patients with less advanced disease (entry bilirubin < 2mg/dL; histological stage I or II) compared to patients with more advanced disease.

Primary Sclerosing Cholangitis
Primary sclerosing cholangitis (PSC) is a chronic cholestatic liver disease characterised by inflammation, fibrosis, and destruction of the large intra- and extra-hepatic bile ducts. One pivotal randomised, double-blind placebo-controlled study examines the efficacy of UDCA in the treatment of PSC in 105 patients over 2 years. The dosage used was in the range of 13 - 15 mg/kg/day. Irrespective of initial histological stage, UDCA had no effect on time to treatment failure and survival, without liver transplantation. Serum bilirubin, ALP and AST improved, but UDCA was not associated with a significant improvement in symptoms or histological score. In three smaller randomised, double-blind, placebo-controlled studies, UDCA similarly showed significant improvement in liver biochemistry (in 2 of the studies) when compared to placebo, but did not significantly improve symptom scores. One study found significant improvement in some liver histological features in the patients treated with UDCA. These trials used UDCA doses ranging from 10 - 15 mg/kg/day.

Cystic fibrosis-related cholestasis
Cystic fibrosis (CF) is a hereditary disease with multiorgan involvement. Clinical liver disease is rare although many patients may have biochemical evidence of cirrhosis.

One double-blind, placebo-controlled, study randomised 55 patients with CF to UDCA 900 mg/day or placebo for one year. In addition, taurine supplements or placebo were randomly assigned. Efficacy was assessed by improvements in clinically relevant and nutritional parameters, and liver biochemistry. After one year, the UDCA group had significant improvement in GGT and 5'-nucleosidase but not AST or ALT. However, there was a deterioration of overall clinical condition, as measured by the Shwachman-Kulcycki score in those receiving placebo compared to the UDCA group.

In a dose comparison study, UDCA 20 mg/kg/day for 12 months resulted in a more pronounced improvement in GGT and ALT compared to UDCA 10 mg/kg/day. Improvements in AST and ALP were comparable. Although this study suggested a possible benefit with higher drug doses in resolving liver biochemistry, whether UDCA improves quality of life, histology, or survival is unknown.

INDICATIONS
URSOFALK is indicated in the treatment of chronic cholestatic liver diseases.

CONTRAINDICATIONS
URSOFALK must not be used in the presence of acute inflammation of the gall bladder and bile ducts; and obstruction of the biliary tract (common bile duct).
 
So I think what we've got here, assuming of course that TUDCA and UDCA are similar enough that they can be dosed just about interchangeably, is justification for dosing anywhere between 250mg every three and a half to six days (once or twice a week dosing), and all the way up to about 2000 mg every day.

So many words, but it doesn't seem to clear things up a whole lot.
 
So I think what we've got here, assuming of course that TUDCA and UDCA are similar enough that they can be dosed just about interchangeably, is justification for dosing anywhere between 250mg every three and a half to six days (once or twice a week dosing), and all the way up to about 2000 mg every day.

So many words, but it doesn't seem to clear things up a whole lot.

Thanks for all your help; any way to monitor if I should be taking more or less based on anything other than a blood test?
 
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