Deca/Test log: version Smash Time

smash1904 said:
So right now I'm taking test p 125mg eod, and deca 300mg test e 410mg per week split M/W/F(its a painful shot, feels better split up, and i figured this would give more stable test levels). First thing is I'm taking 2cc of deca and 3 cc of test and putting it together in a vile, and then pulling off that for dosing - is this ok? Next I'm thinking of raising the test e to 470mg/week deca 310, does anyone think I shouldn't? And finally I am reading Swale's HCG Protocol, and Im wondering if I'm dosing correctly - 250mcg M/F... It says like day of once a week shot and two days before that, but I have a different aas protocol.

Thanks.
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Any thoughts?
 
fueledpassion said:
Well most wet compounds are ideal for strength gains but even more so for muscle gains. I was just asking really. True strength training will not necessarily be very effective at mass gaining, although some gains should be realized regardless.

When talking anabolics, I always aim for mass gains personally. My theory is that steroid strength will always escape you unless muscle mass has been added as well. Keeping muscle gains on the other hand really has more to do with your PCT protocol as well as bridging supplements. I'm not arguing with Rodja or anyone who is into the strength/power lifting stuff but I just try to realize as much gains as possible from these cycles. I couldn't justify steroid cycles if everything I benefited from the cycle was lost 4 weeks after stopping.
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You know what? Your theory seems kind of dead on. My strength has always been directly proportional to my weight, and in pct my strength sticks if my weight stays. As soon as I start dropping pounds I start coming up short on sets, and lowering my weight. If I focus on mass I will get stronger too, and will retain more in pct.
 
jaderjader321 said:
Post up some results man! Pics or weight or measurements! :)
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Every day I log I put down weight and strength increases. So far I'm up 4 lbs, which means I've completed 16% of my weight goal, and I'm only two weeks in - have 14 weeks left.
 
So my friend is telling me that at 10-12 weeks I should stop the deca, and start up tren ace for the remainder of cycle. I don't know if I'll need to, I have a feeling deca is going to be awesome, and might want to do a test p tren ace for my next cycle. I am thinking of running anavar the last 3 weeks to solidify gains, and to see how I react to test/progestin/dht at the same time.
 
smash1904 said:
You know what? Your theory seems kind of dead on. My strength has always been directly proportional to my weight, and in pct my strength sticks if my weight stays. As soon as I start dropping pounds I start coming up short on sets, and lowering my weight. If I focus on mass I will get stronger too, and will retain more in pct.
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It's called leverage. Generally speaking, being heavier will give you better leverage for strength. This is another reason why I don't try to put on insane amounts of mass on-cycle: it's not going to stick around once you're done. However, modest gains (5-8 lbs) can be maintained along with your leverages.

Maximal strength development is something that very few people understand. It has much less to do with muscle mass than 99% of people think. It is determined primarily by the CNS and technique. That's why you see dude's that are 150 lbs and bench 315 lbs; they understand technique and have an efficient CNS. To quote Louie Simmons, "Big isn't strong; strong is strong."
 
I wouldn't run both deca and tren in this cycle, I'd stop the deca 2 weeks before you stop the test though.
 
Rodja said:
It's called leverage. Generally speaking, being heavier will give you better leverage for strength. This is another reason why I don't try to put on insane amounts of mass on-cycle: it's not going to stick around once you're done. However, modest gains (5-8 lbs) can be maintained along with your leverages.

Maximal strength development is something that very few people understand. It has much less to do with muscle mass than 99% of people think. It is determined primarily by the CNS and technique. That's why you see dude's that are 150 lbs and bench 315 lbs; they understand technique and have an efficient CNS. To quote Louie Simmons, "Big isn't strong; strong is strong."
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Which is why you are able to get stronger even when you're not gaining weight. But the chemistry in your body is different when your on cycle vs not on cycle, so it would make sense to focus on getting the most mass(lbm) so that in pct you maintain more leverage(strength). If you expect to maintain 80% of your mass, then you could expect to maintain the same strength if its directly proportional.
 
ManBeast said:
I wouldn't run both deca and tren in this cycle, I'd stop the deca 2 weeks before you stop the test though.
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It was just a suggestion he made, I don't think its likely I'd do it. I'm already pretty sure I'm increasing the dose on test, and I could increase the amount of deca I'm taking, but he thinks I'd really like tren.
 
smash1904 said:
Which is why you are able to get stronger even when you're not gaining weight. But the chemistry in your body is different when your on cycle vs not on cycle, so it would make sense to focus on getting the most mass(lbm) so that in pct you maintain more leverage(strength). If you expect to maintain 80% of your mass, then you could expect to maintain the same strength if its directly proportional.
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There isn't any exact proportion between strength and mass. The CNS is really what determines the strength of a person. Myofibrillar hypertrophy doesn't add a huge amount of mass, but it is the muscular portion that is responsible for strength. A bigger muscle has the potential​ to be a stronger muscle, but they do not go directly hand in hand.
 
Rodja said:
There isn't any exact proportion between strength and mass. The CNS is really what determines the strength of a person. Myofibrillar hypertrophy doesn't add a huge amount of mass, but it is the muscular portion that is responsible for strength. A bigger muscle has the potential to be a stronger muscle, but they do not go directly hand in hand.
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But for the purposes of trying to maintain as much strength in pct couldn't it be looked at like the more lbm you acquire and maintain, the less you're strength would dip? It seemed like you were saying to to move away from my 5x5 strength program, and focus more on hypertrophy, which is basically what my friend was telling me.
 
smash1904 said:
But for the purposes of trying to maintain as much strength in pct couldn't it be looked at like the more lbm you acquire and maintain, the less you're strength would have a dip? It seemed like you were saying to to move away from my 5x5 strength program, and focus more on hypertrophy, which is basically what my friend was telling me.
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You wanted to gain a large amount of strength, so I steered you more towards conjugate training, which is not based around hypertrophy. While you can gain a solid amount of strength with hypertrophy training, it is not ideal. 5x5 is linear and is more suited to newer trainers. It is not ideal for maximal strength development.

Regarding holding onto strength during PCT, this is something that depends completely on how you train and your CNS recovery abilities.
 
Rodja said:
You wanted to gain a large amount of strength, so I steered you more towards conjugate training, which is not based around hypertrophy. While you can gain a solid amount of strength with hypertrophy training, it is not ideal. 5x5 is linear and is more suited to newer trainers. It is not ideal for maximal strength development.

Regarding holding onto strength during PCT, this is something that depends completely on how you train and your CNS recovery abilities.
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Although I wouldnt say I'm a new trainer(having played sports all through school, and fighting afterwards) by no means would I call myself an advanced lifter. I still lift pretty light, didn't have very good weight training programs, and only started deadlifting and squatting last year. Having a program that focuses on lifts like that, and strength, became important to me because I felt I was lacking. It might not be ideal, but it works, and it does get ones numbers up quickly. I know once I stop gaining with it to look to other programs.

Last cycle I gained nearly 30 lbs, and my strength gains were crazy. My strength gains stopped in pct, but I didn't really lose any strength either, and my weight stayed about the same. After pct this became problematic because I kept getting stuck when I'd try to increase weight, and when I'd drop 10% I wasn't able to push through. Then I got real sick and lost a lot of weight, and my strength went down. So I dunno if maybe I needed a longer or more aggressive pct, but I didn't have any problems maintaining strength or size during that time - just progress came to a halt.
 
Rodja said:
You're still in the window where, if you program properly, your strength can improve considerably each year, especially if you're not to the advanced stage (and I'm not saying that I'm there, BTW).
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Ya that's what I'm working on, and I'm only now starting to get the hang of things.
 
Day 13:

Weight: 187

Started my deload today, felt pretty good. I'd been having some lower back pain since last week, so I felt like it was a good time to start.

Percentages based on weight last lifted:
Overhead press 60(52%) 15-15-13
Front squat 90(60%) 12-12-10
Front squat shrug 90(60%) 20-20-20
I did the shrugs real slow, and keep the weight real low, but I was able to shrug 225 just a couple weeks ago, so don't know if I should keep them heavier?
And I was able to do sets of 20-25 on all my isolation exercises.

I am now dosing test 450mg/week, deca 330mg/week. I also lowered my test p dose to 75mg eod, and that will be until the beginning of next week.
 
I didn't think to ask before, but when you deload is it 50% of 1rm or of what you were repping? And do you go up in weight with each subsequent workout in a given exercise during deload?
 
smash1904 said:
I didn't think to ask before, but when you deload is it 50% of 1rm or of what you were repping? And do you go up in weight with each subsequent workout in a given exercise during deload?
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50-60% of 1RM on big lifts (squat, bench, deads, etc.). You do not need to deload on shrugs. Weight doesn't go up. Warm-up properly and do your deload sets for the big lifts.
 
Rodja said:
Normal tempo and 3-5 sets. It's not supposed to be challenging. At all. A deload is merely active recovery and technique work.
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Gotcha. Looks like deload really starts tomorrow hahaha.
 
So I'm thinking of going from my 5x5 routine to this maybe half way through:

Monday

Heavy Lower Body
Medium Pull
Light Push

Wednesday

Heavy Push
Medium Lower Body
Light Pull

Friday

Heavy Pull
Medium Push
Light Lower Body

Heavy = 3-6 reps
Medium = 6-9 reps
Light = 10-15 reps

A1 Heavy 3 3-6
A2 Medium 3 6-9
B1 Heavy (A1 continued) 3 3-6
B2 Light 3 10-15

This is based on:
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So 6 weeks 5x5, 1 week deload, and then remainder of cycle follow the above program(6-8 weeks).
Thatd be a 60-65 lb increase across the board, which doesn't sound unreasonable in 4 months, or I could switch over right off the bat and I'd have a 30-35 lb increase. This is of course if I don't stick at a weight, any thoughts?
 
Day 15:

Weight: 188

Another deload day, and even with the ease I still got a good sweat on. And I'm growing, my weight has been going up steadily for days. I think I'll hit 205 no problem, might even shoot for 210 because of weight loss in pct. I love that size from deca is said to stick around real well - apparently twice as well as test.
 
Here's an article that says to move into the 6-15 rep range if you're feeling pain in lifts:

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Makes me think I really should move into lower weight higher repetition.
 
Lifts are only unsafe if done incorrectly. If you're feeling pain, there are two possibilities: your technique is off or you need to work on your mobility.
 
Rodja said:
Lifts are only unsafe if done incorrectly. If you're feeling pain, there are two possibilities: your technique is off or you need to work on your mobility.
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I've filmed my deadlift, squat, and bench and had them reviewed. Little pointers here and there, but I prolly would benefit from having a trainer for a bit. My squat was problematic, which is why I switched to front squat variation - my upper back mobility wasn't allowing my wrists to go into proper position, and my hips weren't bending to get my butt to stick out correctly. My deadlift looks ok, but I'm getting lower back pain that comes and goes. Im having trouble differentiating between doms and back injury, and I might just be a hypercondriac. And then sometimes I get shoulder pain when I bench, like my shoulders bout to pop out. Not every time, but enough for me to think I need to fix something - maybe only go to 90 degrees, instead of to the chest.
 
I'm kind of pissed, all the sudden acne got real bad tonight. Out of nowhere. Broke out all over my back and shoulders.
 
smash1904 said:
I've filmed my deadlift, squat, and bench and had them reviewed. Little pointers here and there, but I prolly would benefit from having a trainer for a bit. My squat was problematic, which is why I switched to front squat variation - my upper back mobility wasn't allowing my wrists to go into proper position, and my hips weren't bending to get my butt to stick out correctly. My deadlift looks ok, but I'm getting lower back pain that comes and goes. Im having trouble differentiating between doms and back injury, and I might just be a hypercondriac. And then sometimes I get shoulder pain when I bench, like my shoulders bout to pop out. Not every time, but enough for me to think I need to fix something - maybe only go to 90 degrees, instead of to the chest.
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I can tell you right now just from your description that your bench needs technique work. I have long arms for my frame (my reach is 75") and I still hit the chest. It sounds like you're not doing at least two of the following: high arch, "drifting" with the bar, tucking, leg drive, "pushing yourself into the bench."
 
Rodja said:
I can tell you right now just from your description that your bench needs technique work. I have long arms for my frame (my reach is 75") and I still hit the chest. It sounds like you're not doing at least two of the following: high arch, "drifting" with the bar, tucking, leg drive, "pushing yourself into the bench."
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I've been using this and refer to it fairly regurly:
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and I don't really know what those terms mean.
 
Rodja said:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krvj3HgYlVc">YouTube Link</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QnwAoesJvQ">YouTube Link</a>
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Thank you, this is very informative.
 
So I figured out it wasn't an acne break out, it was hives and flea bites. I didn't notice cause my skin gets itchy after I tan, but the itch got super intense and I noticed my roommates kittens have fleas. Bombed the house, treated the kittens.
 
Day 21:

Weight: 188
Kinda sticking at this weight now, I guess I need to eat more - I might switch from regular protein to weight gainer, or get some more waxy maize too.

It was another deload day, I was a day off cause I got called into work. I will be going back to routine on Thursday.
 
Just do it like a lot of pros. Low reps with slow slow movement. Ten try resistance with the same reps to get your fast and slow twitch muscle fiber growth. I've been doing this for a year now. Try decca/dbol/test 400. Greatest stack I've ever used, old school and no side effects. If you want to build up that solid strength I would recommend a 10 month cycle of gh and test. In one year I have gained rank results. On that stack who wouldn't though.
Pump angry!!
 
10 month cycle of test? Is that even considered a cycle anymore? lol I don't think he's training for his pro card quite yet...
 
pumpedcal said:
Just do it like a lot of pros. Low reps with slow slow movement. Ten try resistance with the same reps to get your fast and slow twitch muscle fiber growth. I've been doing this for a year now. Try decca/dbol/test 400. Greatest stack I've ever used, old school and no side effects. If you want to build up that solid strength I would recommend a 10 month cycle of gh and test. In one year I have gained rank results. On that stack who wouldn't though.
Pump angry!!
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How much did you gain over that ten month stretch, if your serious?
 
smash1904 said:
So a 1 week deload how often? Every 6 weeks? If I basically have two workout groups that I switch between, could I maybe make every third time I hit a group a deload workout and switch to low weight high repetition? Would that be significant enough, or does it really need to be a full body deload for 7-14 days? And then what weight do you start at after deload?
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I know this post is way old but you should read this...everyone should read this...

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pumpedcal said:
Just do it like a lot of pros. Low reps with slow slow movement. Ten try resistance with the same reps to get your fast and slow twitch muscle fiber growth. I've been doing this for a year now. Try decca/dbol/test 400. Greatest stack I've ever used, old school and no side effects. If you want to build up that solid strength I would recommend a 10 month cycle of gh and test. In one year I have gained rank results. On that stack who wouldn't though.
Pump angry!!
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Pros do low reps? Idk what pros you have been watching.................
 
More rhetoric from people that don't understand training. A stronger muscle will become a bigger muscle, but most people don't know how to program for strength.
 
Day 24:

Weight: 189

I did a complete change up of routine. Still working a couple things out but its basically a three day split followed by a day off, push/pull/leg & abs. That gives each muscle group 4 days of rest, I get to target each group more thoroughly, and in 4 weeks I would end up doing an exercise more times than with my previous routine. I will post up what I'm looking at tomorrow.
 
GreenEarth said:
10 month cycle of test? Is that even considered a cycle anymore? lol I don't think he's training for his pro card quite yet...
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Haha ya sounds like trt to me, and no I'm not training for my pro card yet.
 
So how does this split look:

Day 1 legs/abs:
Squat
Standing calves
Seated calves
Leg curl
Leg extension
Leg ups
Planks
Medicine ball

Day 2 push:
Bench
Over head press
Dips
Cable tricep pulldown
Pec Dec
Dumbell front delt
Dumbell side delt
Forearm wrist curl

Day 3 pull:
Deadlift
Cable row
Wide grip pull up
Close grip chin up
Lat pullover
Front squat shrug
Preacher curls
Reverse pec dec

Day 4 off:

And then I would start over, which is 96 hours between muscle groups, except deadlift on pull day but I still have 48 hours, so I don't think that'll be a problem. Just deadlift and squat on the same day is really hard, I think I just about threw my back out trying it the other day.
 
Day 27:

Weight 189:

Squat 210 5x5
Leg extension 130 3x10
Leg curl 100 3x10
Seated calves 110 2x15
Standing calves 120 2x15
And then abs. I'm feeling pretty good in the gym, and I like this new split. I got crazy pumps in my quads.
 
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