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What do you do when you're not 'feeling' your workout one day?

That's the deal breaker and thread ender (due to irreconcilable differences of opinion). Reading about this Broz guy, it's pretty obvious he's of a similar mindset. With talk of such black magic as "floating pain" and phrases such as "
The lifter that can endure the most pain will be the most successful" tells me a lot. His is of a very old, uneducated (yet typical American) mindset. I--and many other people on this board--don't have degrees in exercise science/physiology/kinesiology/sport performance for nothing. Not to toot my own horn here, but I work directly with Olympic medalists, and others on this board are in association with similar athletes. Broz, as far as I knows (couldn't resist) hasn't produced anyone. Sure, he trains the Mendes kid, but he's never produced in competition. Our athletes have. Pure and simple. "Revolutionary" training gets you nowhere if it doesn't produce results. Using a science-based method (with some artistic license), however, will produce results.
lol @ ur bs degrees. you dont need a degree to know how to lift. It takes experience. Not a degree. Degrees are bs when it comes to real life things. congrats, You probably passed a fitness test for 20 pushups and wrote your answer on a paper that shows you know how systems perform. Congrats, thats nothing. I hate when people give me that. pics of you ? i would like to see how jacked you and ur degree is.. thanks
 
You're engaging in logical fallacy, but i'll bite. My degree is a bachelor's in exercise science, and I begin a masters in sport performance this fall. I've been a personal trainer since 2009 (ACSM cpt) and was on the strength and conditioning staff of ETSU's women's soccer team for a year. I have worked at an Olympic training center since August, where I work with two gold medalists, a bronze medalist, and five world champions. Once my masters is complete, I will be pursuing a career with elite and Olympic caliber athletes.

I'm 6'1", weigh 86kg, and have average levels of strength. A serious back injury in May resulted in setbacks in my training, but today I was able to squat what I was squatting pre injury. I'm planning on competing in strongman (under 200), and given today's events, I plan on my first competition being in 2013. I wasn't gifted with stellar genetics, but I make do. Size does not make a coach, nor do pure application nor pure knowledge. One must be knowledgeable and experienced, as knowledge aids the coach in creating proper training programs while experience teaches the intangibles and the art of coaching. I bring a reasonable amount of both, and I work with very accomplished coaches who bring much more than I do. So please, don't engage in such fallacy without knowing the individual(s) you're speaking to.

If you worked with olympic athletes im sure its because the world typically is this: College degree rules over everything. And its true. but in reality, there are a crap load of people without college degrees that would do way better than the guy who holds it. Im not comparing myself to anyone or anyone to you. But degrees in this make no sense. And tell me. What is your squat at what bodyweight? And deadlift? Because i am just thinking of you putting up some number just to say that you degree makes your lifting better than mine..
 
Matt, iron_will, i will have to agree with both of you to some degree. First off, I went to school with Matt, and graduated with the same degree. He knows a ton about this, and learned from one of the best when it comes to periodization. However, heavy and maximal effort are quite different. The Chinese as well as several Olympic lifters squat heavy 6-12 times per week. I'm sure that iron will be able to make progress for a while by squatting heavy every day as long as he doesn't try to max out every day. It would be a good idea for him to drop the idea of adding 5-10 lbs every workout, or even every week for that matter.
As far as total training volume, I often perform 60-100,000 lbs of work a day 6 days per week. It's all about how your body adapts to training. I don't think iron will is going to have to worry too much about over training if he will drop the idea of adding weight to the bar every day.
By the way, Matt, looking forward to being in the masters program with you soon.
 
Im a powerlifter and follow westside conjugate training. One such trainer i cant think of that does NOT lift as much as the ppl he trains is louie simmons. The man coaches guys whoe squat over 900lbs and a few over 1000lbs squaters. Has he ever squated 1000? Nope but he sure as hell teaches these guys to produce in comp. My point in saying this is to Iron_will and his lets compare numbers and if you dont lift more then me then shut up logic. The biggest and most jacked dude doesnt always make the best coach.
 
Matt, iron_will, i will have to agree with both of you to some degree. First off, I went to school with Matt, and graduated with the same degree. He knows a ton about this, and learned from one of the best when it comes to periodization. However, heavy and maximal effort are quite different. The Chinese as well as several Olympic lifters squat heavy 6-12 times per week. I'm sure that iron will be able to make progress for a while by squatting heavy every day as long as he doesn't try to max out every day. It would be a good idea for him to drop the idea of adding 5-10 lbs every workout, or even every week for that matter.
As far as total training volume, I often perform 60-100,000 lbs of work a day 6 days per week. It's all about how your body adapts to training. I don't think iron will is going to have to worry too much about over training if he will drop the idea of adding weight to the bar every day.
By the way, Matt, looking forward to being in the masters program with you soon.
I completely agree with you. But im greedy and i want more. so i dont see why. If i get inured, im an idiot. but it hasn't happened yet and i don't plan on it happening. I have a check point of things before i lift the weight. And i do vary the volume and try to0 get good recovery.
 
Moving up 10 lbs a day is fine for now, but once it gets up to a true 3RM its unrealistic to think you will be able to add 10 more lbs the next day. 1) you won't be be able to lift it, then what's your plan? 2) you Will start to fry your CNS and you will end up getting weaker everyday and begin losing motivation.

I still say you should just go for a heavy triple everyday, maybe 90-95% of your true 3RM and you will get better results over the next month or even longer.
 
Moving up 10 lbs a day is fine for now, but once it gets up to a true 3RM its unrealistic to think you will be able to add 10 more lbs the next day. 1) you won't be be able to lift it, then what's your plan? 2) you Will start to fry your CNS and you will end up getting weaker everyday and begin losing motivation.

I still say you should just go for a heavy triple everyday, maybe 90-95% of your true 3RM and you will get better results over the next month or even longer.
So your saying to hit 90-95% of of my 1rm for like 3 weeks straight then re test my max? I think its a good idea because my body should get use to lifting that over and over again. Ill think about it. Thats if this is what you are talking about..
 
Yes, I think that will be much more beneficial. Also, remember, your 3RM will fluctuate day to day. If you have a day where you feel weak, dont try to do the same weight you did the day before when you felt like King Kong. Also, always explode on the way up, no matter what the weight is.
 
I completely agree with you. But im greedy and i want more. so i dont see why. If i get inured, im an idiot. but it hasn't happened yet and i don't plan on it happening. I have a check point of things before i lift the weight. And i do vary the volume and try to0 get good recovery.

The bolded says it all.I agree with what you've said about yourself dude.You add nothing to this site but the affirmation that arrogant people still populate the world.
 
The bolded says it all.You add nothing to this site but the affirmation that arrogant people still populate the world.
I love you bro. Go check my log. I love all you! YESS!
 
Iron you havent added much to the site other then your attitude. This is not bb dot com so chill out. Your 19 year old kid, you dont know everything and calling ppls degrees bs is just rude. What do you have at 19 that makes you so freaking special? a 500 lb squat? Please man let it go. If your gonna post your point of views great but dont argue with science unless you got science to back it up. From now on try posting a study to back up what your saying or at least material that backs it up OTHER then your 3 month short term log. BOOM!
 
Iron you havent added much to the site other then your attitude. This is not bb dot com so chill out. Your 19 year old kid, you dont know everything and calling ppls degrees bs is just rude. What do you have at 19 that makes you so freaking special? a 500 lb squat? Please man let it go. If your gonna post your point of views great but dont argue with science unless you got science to back it up. From now on try posting a study to back up what your saying or at least material that backs it up OTHER then your 3 month short term log. BOOM!

My 3 month log that went from 325 to 500? And that 325 was recorded a week into it. I don't care what my squat is.


But if you think you need science to back up my results, you must have something wrong with you. If my squat goes from 1lb to 99999lbs and i have no science on my schemes. And you squat goes from 1lb to 200lbs based on science,,theres no question whos program worked better. Im not bragging about my squat but i wanted to spread my knowledge and i also wanted some help. No one posts in my threads anymore. And thats fine. Because ive been doing everything myself as is and ive been making better gains than almost anyone right now. on earth! 600.. here i come
 
My 3 month log that went from 325 to 500? And that 325 was recorded a week into it. I don't care what my squat is.


But if you think you need science to back up my results, you must have something wrong with you. If my squat goes from 1lb to 99999lbs and i have no science on my schemes. And you squat goes from 1lb to 200lbs based on science,,theres no question whos program worked better. Im not bragging about my squat but i wanted to spread my knowledge and i also wanted some help. No one posts in my threads anymore. And thats fine. Because ive been doing everything myself as is and ive been making better gains than almost anyone right now. on earth! 600.. here i come

No ones posting in your threads? I believe rodja and several others are in your log offering advice and you just blow it off everytime. Idk what to tell you when some of the smartest ppl on the board offer help and you say whatever to it. And I dont think your making better progress then anyone on earth.
 
No ones posting in your threads? I believe rodja and several others are in your log offering advice and you just blow it off everytime. Idk what to tell you when some of the smartest ppl on the board offer help and you say whatever to it. And I dont think your making better progress then anyone on earth.
tell me how i blew it off? if you read my newly formulated program it has everything they said. really? 450 to 500 in 2 weeks. ok. your acting like a child. goodbye
 
tell me how i blew it off? if you read my newly formulated program it has everything they said. really? 450 to 500 in 2 weeks. ok. your acting like a child. goodbye

I havent looked at your new program, where was it I saw 2-3 posted. And im not acting like a child im just saying its a bold claim to say your getting the best results on earth man. Your one person dont be so naive. But its funny to see you upset after acting so immature towards so many great ppl here on AM.
 
I havent looked at your new program, where was it I saw 2-3 posted. And im not acting like a child im just saying its a bold claim to say your getting the best results on earth man. Your one person dont be so naive. But its funny to see you upset after acting so immature towards so many great ppl here on AM.

1) look at the first page. You should see my new program i made up

2) I listened to everyone if you want to go through the whole thing again i might have disagreed but i listened. and i did and am now implementing most the things most people said. Look at the new program. I said it like 4 times already.

3) Im not serious when i say im getting the best results in the earth but for you to say not listening to people is dumb. Look at the results ive gotten. AGAIN, im not bragging, but you can't say that what im doing is not working. You should be saying, i agree Iron, your results are great, maybe implement the other guys techniques and i think you could do even better though. Not "IRON, YOU DIDN'T USE THE BEST GUYS TECHNIQUES, THEREFORE YOUR PROGRAM SUKS AND YOU ARE IMMATURE"

listen, i do listen to them, but no one has listened to me. which is very surprising. No one has said, Iron, im gonna take a piece of your training and incorporate it into mine. Its amazing because my results speak for themselves.

Im not saying you have to use it, but you have not said 1 good thing from what i remember. Why bring this up? This argument what between me and the science guy. If you want to state an opinion, don't attack me directly like a little child would.

I don't want to fight with people. You think im immature towards people. Not even close. I disagree with people. Even if you think its in a bad way. Thats whats going on. And i have been taking advice. Maybe read through the posts before making yourself look like a fool.
 
I havent looked at your new program, where was it I saw 2-3 posted. And im not acting like a child im just saying its a bold claim to say your getting the best results on earth man. Your one person dont be so naive. But its funny to see you upset after acting so immature towards so many great ppl here on AM.
Now look at the first page of my log and you will see that i directed you since you could not find it. The very first page.
 
No I ment you said you were asking for advice but didnt listen until you hit that 500 lbs squat if i remember right. But dude honestly i wish you all the best, you got the stuborn attitude to make some things happen in the weight room. And honestly idk many ppl that would take on squating everyday. Since most ppl here train for fitness or bbing. Then some others for sport, powerlifting, or strongman. None of these goals would allow someone to train daily or squat daily either. Your main goal was to increase your squat only, which you did. Awsome. Mine is to increase my total which requires a totally different training style. So maybe if someone had the EXACT same goal as you they would try it.
 
I think the big issue that hasn't been communicated clearly is the issue of long-term development. Several people have made reference, but no one has really come out and said, "This is my concern." Having a few days to mellow out, I think I can maybe provide you with what some people are trying to say *Warning, long post ahead*

In the athletic world, strength coaches ultimately aren't concerned with the short term. Working with collegiate and Olympic athletes, we operate on a quadrennial cycle. With development athletes, we're looking two to three Games ahead (that's 12+ years! of training!). High schoolers fall into a similar boat. The research is out there that the kids who perform their freshman/sophomore years won't make it to college and/or the pros unless they are bona fide freaks of nature. It's the kids who develop a stronger, multifaceted base who begin to perform late into their junior/senior years that really go somewhere. So if I'm working with a high school kid, I tell them, "You aren't going to like hearing me say this, but we aren't concerned with high school. We're concerned with college." 14 year old boys and their fathers don't like hearing that, but in the back of their minds, they know it's true. If they aren't looking a long time down the road, they aren't going to make it very far down that road.

We tell our B team sliding athletes the same thing: don't focus on putting it all out there this season. Keep getting stronger, keep getting faster, keep learning the tracks, and you're going to go somewhere in the next 2-3 years. And all those guys who are only training for now, you're going to pass them up when they end up not being the strongest and fastest anymore. Some of them get it, some of them don't. Some go off and do their own plan and start to regress. Some come back, some drop out of the sport. The point is, though, they didn't have a long-term plan. They didn't care their start was .5s faster than when they started (which is huge in a sliding sport); they only care that Athlete X is still .2s faster. Somehow, they don't see all the progress they've made. It happens--we're short-sighted unless someone smacks sense into us.

I fall into the same boat. I'll catch myself saying, "Man, I wish I could bench more" or "My squat isn't where it should be." I start to question my plan and get antsy until I remember I hurt my back 10 months ago and couldn't squat and couldn't bench (correctly) for months. I somehow forget the gains I've made since losing all that strength even as I'm putting the reps/weights into my Excel file. It happened tonight, in fact. I was putting in data for my HDL (much easier on my back), which was 170kg for 3x5 tonight. It's a 90% day (I'll do a log that explains loading one of these days, as it doesn't have anything to do with 1RM), and that 170 felt easy. Moved fast, no problems. I was kinda bummed about it until I looked back at data from last year (October 26 to be exact) and saw that 175 was my max 3x5. For not training HDL between then and now, that's a huge change to go from a weight I was struggling with to a meh weight. As an aside, before my injury, I was pulling 177x3 on conventional, so my back is almost back to normal in that regard.

Same goes for my back squat. Post-injury, I went from 5x5ing 125kg in early March to 5x5 with 100kg at the beginning of August (lost the data for the months in between). This past Monday, I hit 125 for 3x5 easily. Last week, I was doing 110 for 3x10--again, easily. In six months, I finally recovered from my back injury and made it back to square 1. If you were to just look at my numbers, you would think, Oh this kid needs to reevalute his program, he hasn't done anything with his lifting. Yet you weren't there for the days I couldn't get out of bed over the summer or the days I couldn't sit in a car for more than 45 minutes because my back was hurting so badly (and this was in November!). Yet I kept focused on the long-term goal (an under-200 strongman competition in 2012-2013), gritted my teeth, and kept lifting. Once the pain finally started to move out in December and January, I started to put the weight back on the bar and finally feel like I'm ready to make some substantial gains in 2012. Today, I'm sitting here after 3x5 on HDL, shrug snatch, prone row, and reverse hyper with zero pain in my back and an eagerness to get pulling here in the next few weeks.

I said all that to say this *THIS IS WHERE YOU COME IN IF YOU DON'T WANT TO READ THE REST*: in most of our minds, we're focusing on your long-term while you're focusing on your short-term. You see the 175lbs/3months while we're looking more toward where you'll be in 2-3 years. When you look at it from that perspective, 3 months isn't that long-term. Our arguments come with the knowledge in mind that your gains will slow down. The body is an amazing machine, but it can't continually gain like that 3 month cycle after 3 month cycle (otherwise powerlifters would be squatting tonnage by now--raw). The body has to be developed with the long-term in mind, from a CNS perspective, from a muscular perspective, and from a soft tissue/bone perspective. Only focusing on the short-term doesn't allow for that. Thus, weaknesses and imbalances that don't seem substantial now end up leading to debilitating injury (my glutes were weak in my case). Others have mentioned your back as a source of weakness. They don't do it to be nitpicky, they do it to alert you to what could become a problem as the weights continue to increase. There will come a point where your back, if not strengthened properly, will give. And you'll be left on the floor with 5-600 pounds on you. Not an ideal scenario. I've seen your log and see that you've made an effort to address some of these issues, so that's a step in the right direction.

Again, approach this from a standpoint of Where do I want to be in two years? Do you want to be competing in a sport? How competitive do you want to be? What weaknesses are holding you back from that currently? That's how you should look at training. And while the minutiae will fluctuate (no training plan is concrete) the overall plan stays the same. To give you a practical example, I know I want to compete in strongman next year. My clean, overhead press, and dead lift need work. So what am I working on? My clean, overhead, and dead. But that's not all I train. I have a weak shoulder due to some anatomical issues, so I hammer the rows and face pulls. Also, as I mentioned before, my glutes were a contributing factor to my back injury. I've started implementing GHRs, RHs, and weighted bridges/hip thrusts. My glutes have gotten stronger, my DL has started to go up, and my back has stopped hurting.

So moral of the story: look at your long-term development, not just the short term. Make necessary adjustments to issues that occur in the short term (shoulder pain, back pain/weakness, whatever), but don't deviate from your ultimate goal. Sorry if this was terribly long-winded, but that puts my thinking process on the table and hopefully helps you understand where I'm coming from (and where some others on the board are likely coming from as well).
 
I think the big issue that hasn't been communicated clearly is the issue of long-term development. Several people have made reference, but no one has really come out and said, "This is my concern." Having a few days to mellow out, I think I can maybe provide you with what some people are trying to say *Warning, long post ahead*

In the athletic world, strength coaches ultimately aren't concerned with the short term. Working with collegiate and Olympic athletes, we operate on a quadrennial cycle. With development athletes, we're looking two to three Games ahead (that's 12+ years! of training!). High schoolers fall into a similar boat. The research is out there that the kids who perform their freshman/sophomore years won't make it to college and/or the pros unless they are bona fide freaks of nature. It's the kids who develop a stronger, multifaceted base who begin to perform late into their junior/senior years that really go somewhere. So if I'm working with a high school kid, I tell them, "You aren't going to like hearing me say this, but we aren't concerned with high school. We're concerned with college." 14 year old boys and their fathers don't like hearing that, but in the back of their minds, they know it's true. If they aren't looking a long time down the road, they aren't going to make it very far down that road.

We tell our B team sliding athletes the same thing: don't focus on putting it all out there this season. Keep getting stronger, keep getting faster, keep learning the tracks, and you're going to go somewhere in the next 2-3 years. And all those guys who are only training for now, you're going to pass them up when they end up not being the strongest and fastest anymore. Some of them get it, some of them don't. Some go off and do their own plan and start to regress. Some come back, some drop out of the sport. The point is, though, they didn't have a long-term plan. They didn't care their start was .5s faster than when they started (which is huge in a sliding sport); they only care that Athlete X is still .2s faster. Somehow, they don't see all the progress they've made. It happens--we're short-sighted unless someone smacks sense into us.

I fall into the same boat. I'll catch myself saying, "Man, I wish I could bench more" or "My squat isn't where it should be." I start to question my plan and get antsy until I remember I hurt my back 10 months ago and couldn't squat and couldn't bench (correctly) for months. I somehow forget the gains I've made since losing all that strength even as I'm putting the reps/weights into my Excel file. It happened tonight, in fact. I was putting in data for my HDL (much easier on my back), which was 170kg for 3x5 tonight. It's a 90% day (I'll do a log that explains loading one of these days, as it doesn't have anything to do with 1RM), and that 170 felt easy. Moved fast, no problems. I was kinda bummed about it until I looked back at data from last year (October 26 to be exact) and saw that 175 was my max 3x5. For not training HDL between then and now, that's a huge change to go from a weight I was struggling with to a meh weight. As an aside, before my injury, I was pulling 177x3 on conventional, so my back is almost back to normal in that regard.

Same goes for my back squat. Post-injury, I went from 5x5ing 125kg in early March to 5x5 with 100kg at the beginning of August (lost the data for the months in between). This past Monday, I hit 125 for 3x5 easily. Last week, I was doing 110 for 3x10--again, easily. In six months, I finally recovered from my back injury and made it back to square 1. If you were to just look at my numbers, you would think, Oh this kid needs to reevalute his program, he hasn't done anything with his lifting. Yet you weren't there for the days I couldn't get out of bed over the summer or the days I couldn't sit in a car for more than 45 minutes because my back was hurting so badly (and this was in November!). Yet I kept focused on the long-term goal (an under-200 strongman competition in 2012-2013), gritted my teeth, and kept lifting. Once the pain finally started to move out in December and January, I started to put the weight back on the bar and finally feel like I'm ready to make some substantial gains in 2012. Today, I'm sitting here after 3x5 on HDL, shrug snatch, prone row, and reverse hyper with zero pain in my back and an eagerness to get pulling here in the next few weeks.

I said all that to say this *THIS IS WHERE YOU COME IN IF YOU DON'T WANT TO READ THE REST*: in most of our minds, we're focusing on your long-term while you're focusing on your short-term. You see the 175lbs/3months while we're looking more toward where you'll be in 2-3 years. When you look at it from that perspective, 3 months isn't that long-term. Our arguments come with the knowledge in mind that your gains will slow down. The body is an amazing machine, but it can't continually gain like that 3 month cycle after 3 month cycle (otherwise powerlifters would be squatting tonnage by now--raw). The body has to be developed with the long-term in mind, from a CNS perspective, from a muscular perspective, and from a soft tissue/bone perspective. Only focusing on the short-term doesn't allow for that. Thus, weaknesses and imbalances that don't seem substantial now end up leading to debilitating injury (my glutes were weak in my case). Others have mentioned your back as a source of weakness. They don't do it to be nitpicky, they do it to alert you to what could become a problem as the weights continue to increase. There will come a point where your back, if not strengthened properly, will give. And you'll be left on the floor with 5-600 pounds on you. Not an ideal scenario. I've seen your log and see that you've made an effort to address some of these issues, so that's a step in the right direction.

Again, approach this from a standpoint of Where do I want to be in two years? Do you want to be competing in a sport? How competitive do you want to be? What weaknesses are holding you back from that currently? That's how you should look at training. And while the minutiae will fluctuate (no training plan is concrete) the overall plan stays the same. To give you a practical example, I know I want to compete in strongman next year. My clean, overhead press, and dead lift need work. So what am I working on? My clean, overhead, and dead. But that's not all I train. I have a weak shoulder due to some anatomical issues, so I hammer the rows and face pulls. Also, as I mentioned before, my glutes were a contributing factor to my back injury. I've started implementing GHRs, RHs, and weighted bridges/hip thrusts. My glutes have gotten stronger, my DL has started to go up, and my back has stopped hurting.

So moral of the story: look at your long-term development, not just the short term. Make necessary adjustments to issues that occur in the short term (shoulder pain, back pain/weakness, whatever), but don't deviate from your ultimate goal. Sorry if this was terribly long-winded, but that puts my thinking process on the table and hopefully helps you understand where I'm coming from (and where some others on the board are likely coming from as well).

NOTE: LONG READ.

Dude your methods are horrible. lol. I just kidding. That was some serious thinking you gave me. And your right. I am very very impatient. My thing is, if i can progress quicker on a the squat and reach an overall goal quicker, i can focus more on other things therefore getting to the end goal quicker. With you, strongman is completely reasonable. But with things like football, there is so much things that go into it. If i can have a 600lb squat a 400lb bench and a 600lb dead and to have that right now. I could focus on speed/mobility/conditioning ect.. and perfect that while staying strong. But at the same time its tough for me..

I don't have a coach. Not just that but how would i do this? For example. If i plan on progressing 5 pounds every week (imo easy for a while), what if i end up lifting the 5 pounds heavier WAYY to easy. Should i just stop and say "my body is fine". Sure you can reach your ultimate goal but in reality, you might just be able to shock yourself on how far you can push your limits. You are talking in the safe point of view. Its a good thing. But what if you won the strongman competition when your 2 year plan was just to place 5th. What if you pushed that extra bit. And you SCREWED UP? then you re-evaluate and continue.

Point is.. i think your idea is good. But my idea is that you should progress.(NOTE: i understand im going very fast and im going to slow down), but thats not going to stop me from trying to maximize my potential. Is a double sided point. You will 100% reach the end goal. While i will either **** it up or completely blast you. Its all or nothing for me. And i know that if im not lifting hard and trying to maximize my potential 110% than i feel like i could do better and it feels like the 2 people on the other side of the world who pushed harder than me will have an edge. Even a slight edge.

You might not understand me. I am a greedy ****y person. i want #1. i don't want #2. I don't want to be beat. Whenever i get beat i get angry. And i beat them the next time. No matter what happens. I will do anything it takes. Because i don't care what you think. I will do anything. If i fail i will keep trying, keep pushing harder. All or nothing. Im not going to get beat and say "well im gonna lift 50 more pounds than he did when he beat me.. that should deff make me win". Even if i know hes going to lift 40lbs.. and im lifting 50lbs i still need to convincingly beat him.


Injurys are different. I know you have to take it slow and listen to docs ect... but our opinions differ. I could have a 550lb squat by the end of the year if i program right. Hands down i know i would. But im willing to take the risk to get to 600. Because its the suprises that makes everything fun. It makes living life a big challenge. You might now be lifting safe, but more safe than i do. I like the thrill. The excitmement of seeing how far i can push my body. Thats a challenge to me that i know many people have trouble with and crumble under that pressure. Im use to it. I hate getting under 450-500lbs on the squat. But i do it and i look back and say "how to F did i do that". and thats the thing that suprises you. I never KNEW/ NEVER knew i would squat 500 today. I never actually thought i would ever squat that. Its been an amazing journey.

And the best thing about this is that i know i have many weaknesses, and im going to improve. But im not just stopping and saying "500is good ,,im done" Im saying its over with right now. Tomorrow is the next day. And to be honest i still am not sure what im going to do for programming. Ive been reading all day about westside methods, ect.. smolov, my methods, my experiences. And im still not sure. Theres so many different methods out there.


So i honestly think that your method is something i might incorporate. Maybe set instead of daily "I PLANS" to monthly "I PLAN".. for example. i plan on hitting 545 squat by April 1st. Something like that. And program accordingly. But we will see. Im still so clusterf'ed about all these methods and things people have been saying. If i could have 1 thing, it would be someone who tells me what to do for the best results. Who knows what they are doing and guides me. I do the work right. andi do it good. i just have trouble following things and my methods usually change a lot. thats why i have 5 program outlines on my log. I change a lot. That could also be muscle confusion considering the gains ive made. Ive squatted everday, but ive done deadlift. then i disclude them. I started doing Zerchers, then stopped. Stopped doing accesssory exercises. And im so confused right now. Im still progressing and thats all that matters. At the same time i still don't know where my life is going. Im not committed to a University. I still have to go through community college for 2 years then transfer to a college. Im horrible in school. And i hate it. Honestly. Its worse than being a garbage man. I would rather be a garbage man. But the kind of lifestyle i want to live doesn't really support that money and other things. i also want to be recognized someday. Not just some scum that lives a bad life.

Or just a normal life. I want something special. Life is plain to me and to live it just like everyone else does seems cyclical and id rather make a name for myself. no matter what i do or what the consequences are. Im going off right now. Sorry. But anyways. Let me know what you think of my thoughts... its funny cuz at first i was like "damn" why would he write that much. And i wrote just as more. lol
 
mattsams89 said:
I think the big issue that hasn't been communicated clearly is the issue of long-term development. Several people have made reference, but no one has really come out and said, "This is my concern." Having a few days to mellow out, I think I can maybe provide you with what some people are trying to say *Warning, long post ahead*

In the athletic world, strength coaches ultimately aren't concerned with the short term. Working with collegiate and Olympic athletes, we operate on a quadrennial cycle. With development athletes, we're looking two to three Games ahead (that's 12+ years! of training!). High schoolers fall into a similar boat. The research is out there that the kids who perform their freshman/sophomore years won't make it to college and/or the pros unless they are bona fide freaks of nature. It's the kids who develop a stronger, multifaceted base who begin to perform late into their junior/senior years that really go somewhere. So if I'm working with a high school kid, I tell them, "You aren't going to like hearing me say this, but we aren't concerned with high school. We're concerned with college." 14 year old boys and their fathers don't like hearing that, but in the back of their minds, they know it's true. If they aren't looking a long time down the road, they aren't going to make it very far down that road.

We tell our B team sliding athletes the same thing: don't focus on putting it all out there this season. Keep getting stronger, keep getting faster, keep learning the tracks, and you're going to go somewhere in the next 2-3 years. And all those guys who are only training for now, you're going to pass them up when they end up not being the strongest and fastest anymore. Some of them get it, some of them don't. Some go off and do their own plan and start to regress. Some come back, some drop out of the sport. The point is, though, they didn't have a long-term plan. They didn't care their start was .5s faster than when they started (which is huge in a sliding sport); they only care that Athlete X is still .2s faster. Somehow, they don't see all the progress they've made. It happens--we're short-sighted unless someone smacks sense into us.

I fall into the same boat. I'll catch myself saying, "Man, I wish I could bench more" or "My squat isn't where it should be." I start to question my plan and get antsy until I remember I hurt my back 10 months ago and couldn't squat and couldn't bench (correctly) for months. I somehow forget the gains I've made since losing all that strength even as I'm putting the reps/weights into my Excel file. It happened tonight, in fact. I was putting in data for my HDL (much easier on my back), which was 170kg for 3x5 tonight. It's a 90% day (I'll do a log that explains loading one of these days, as it doesn't have anything to do with 1RM), and that 170 felt easy. Moved fast, no problems. I was kinda bummed about it until I looked back at data from last year (October 26 to be exact) and saw that 175 was my max 3x5. For not training HDL between then and now, that's a huge change to go from a weight I was struggling with to a meh weight. As an aside, before my injury, I was pulling 177x3 on conventional, so my back is almost back to normal in that regard.

Same goes for my back squat. Post-injury, I went from 5x5ing 125kg in early March to 5x5 with 100kg at the beginning of August (lost the data for the months in between). This past Monday, I hit 125 for 3x5 easily. Last week, I was doing 110 for 3x10--again, easily. In six months, I finally recovered from my back injury and made it back to square 1. If you were to just look at my numbers, you would think, Oh this kid needs to reevalute his program, he hasn't done anything with his lifting. Yet you weren't there for the days I couldn't get out of bed over the summer or the days I couldn't sit in a car for more than 45 minutes because my back was hurting so badly (and this was in November!). Yet I kept focused on the long-term goal (an under-200 strongman competition in 2012-2013), gritted my teeth, and kept lifting. Once the pain finally started to move out in December and January, I started to put the weight back on the bar and finally feel like I'm ready to make some substantial gains in 2012. Today, I'm sitting here after 3x5 on HDL, shrug snatch, prone row, and reverse hyper with zero pain in my back and an eagerness to get pulling here in the next few weeks.

I said all that to say this *THIS IS WHERE YOU COME IN IF YOU DON'T WANT TO READ THE REST*: in most of our minds, we're focusing on your long-term while you're focusing on your short-term. You see the 175lbs/3months while we're looking more toward where you'll be in 2-3 years. When you look at it from that perspective, 3 months isn't that long-term. Our arguments come with the knowledge in mind that your gains will slow down. The body is an amazing machine, but it can't continually gain like that 3 month cycle after 3 month cycle (otherwise powerlifters would be squatting tonnage by now--raw). The body has to be developed with the long-term in mind, from a CNS perspective, from a muscular perspective, and from a soft tissue/bone perspective. Only focusing on the short-term doesn't allow for that. Thus, weaknesses and imbalances that don't seem substantial now end up leading to debilitating injury (my glutes were weak in my case). Others have mentioned your back as a source of weakness. They don't do it to be nitpicky, they do it to alert you to what could become a problem as the weights continue to increase. There will come a point where your back, if not strengthened properly, will give. And you'll be left on the floor with 5-600 pounds on you. Not an ideal scenario. I've seen your log and see that you've made an effort to address some of these issues, so that's a step in the right direction.

Again, approach this from a standpoint of Where do I want to be in two years? Do you want to be competing in a sport? How competitive do you want to be? What weaknesses are holding you back from that currently? That's how you should look at training. And while the minutiae will fluctuate (no training plan is concrete) the overall plan stays the same. To give you a practical example, I know I want to compete in strongman next year. My clean, overhead press, and dead lift need work. So what am I working on? My clean, overhead, and dead. But that's not all I train. I have a weak shoulder due to some anatomical issues, so I hammer the rows and face pulls. Also, as I mentioned before, my glutes were a contributing factor to my back injury. I've started implementing GHRs, RHs, and weighted bridges/hip thrusts. My glutes have gotten stronger, my DL has started to go up, and my back has stopped hurting.

So moral of the story: look at your long-term development, not just the short term. Make necessary adjustments to issues that occur in the short term (shoulder pain, back pain/weakness, whatever), but don't deviate from your ultimate goal. Sorry if this was terribly long-winded, but that puts my thinking process on the table and hopefully helps you understand where I'm coming from (and where some others on the board are likely coming from as well).

Great post man. Reps when I get back to a comp.
 
Some good ideas in here.
 
Now we're getting somewhere...

Dude your methods are horrible. lol. I just kidding. That was some serious thinking you gave me. And your right. I am very very impatient. My thing is, if i can progress quicker on a the squat and reach an overall goal quicker, i can focus more on other things therefore getting to the end goal quicker. With you, strongman is completely reasonable. But with things like football, there is so much things that go into it. If i can have a 600lb squat a 400lb bench and a 600lb dead and to have that right now. I could focus on speed/mobility/conditioning ect.. and perfect that while staying strong. But at the same time its tough for me..

You have some understanding of periodizing and didn't even know it. Haha. We focus on specific traits at specific times. For young athletes, it's mostly motor patterning and strength increases, but as training goes on, it becomes more diverse but focused. We'll save that discussion for another time, though.

I don't have a coach. Not just that but how would i do this? For example. If i plan on progressing 5 pounds every week (imo easy for a while), what if i end up lifting the 5 pounds heavier WAYY to easy. Should i just stop and say "my body is fine". Sure you can reach your ultimate goal but in reality, you might just be able to shock yourself on how far you can push your limits. You are talking in the safe point of view. Its a good thing. But what if you won the strongman competition when your 2 year plan was just to place 5th. What if you pushed that extra bit. And you SCREWED UP? then you re-evaluate and continue.

Point is.. i think your idea is good. But my idea is that you should progress.(NOTE: i understand im going very fast and im going to slow down), but thats not going to stop me from trying to maximize my potential. Is a double sided point. You will 100% reach the end goal. While i will either **** it up or completely blast you. Its all or nothing for me. And i know that if im not lifting hard and trying to maximize my potential 110% than i feel like i could do better and it feels like the 2 people on the other side of the world who pushed harder than me will have an edge. Even a slight edge.

You might not understand me. I am a greedy ****y person. i want #1. i don't want #2. I don't want to be beat. Whenever i get beat i get angry. And i beat them the next time. No matter what happens. I will do anything it takes. Because i don't care what you think. I will do anything. If i fail i will keep trying, keep pushing harder. All or nothing. Im not going to get beat and say "well im gonna lift 50 more pounds than he did when he beat me.. that should deff make me win". Even if i know hes going to lift 40lbs.. and im lifting 50lbs i still need to convincingly beat him.

No, I understand, and I think maybe there was a misunderstanding as far as the methodology I was talking about (whether I just didn't explain well or what, I don't know). Anyway, maybe it seemed like I was saying never push it; just the opposite is true, though. I do push myself and our athletes push themselves. Not every day and not every week (recovery is important), but if I'm on an 85%, for instance, and it's too light, I'll add weight (2.5-5kg most of the time). I did that last night with HDL. I was scheduled to do 160 for 3x5, but when I did it, I thought, Man, that's super light. So I went to 165, then 170. And 170 still felt a little low, but I figured I would save it for next week's 3x10s. Similarly, one of our skellies was 3x3 squatting Monday and asked me what weight she should use. She told me she had done 3x5 front squats with ~70kg two weeks prior. I told her 90-95kg and she got wide eyed and said, "I've never squatted that much." She warmed up, put 95 on, and hit it.

Point is, I still take into account how something feels in deciding the loading for the day. I'm not setting a new rep-max every day, but I'm not dilly dallying in the weight room either. If it's too light for the day's percentage, I go up. If I know it's too heavy, I drop it by a few kg. And on 90-95% days, I'll probably push it an extra bit to see how I'm doing. Did that on bench last block. It's one of my weaker lifts (in the past, I've only gotten 90kg for like 3 reps fresh), but I was at the end of my block and said, "Eh, why not." I had already done several work sets, but I threw 92.5 on there and hit 4 (I should have hit 5, but that's another story). Is that impressive? Not really. Is that progress? Definitely.

Injurys are different. I know you have to take it slow and listen to docs ect... but our opinions differ. I could have a 550lb squat by the end of the year if i program right. Hands down i know i would. But im willing to take the risk to get to 600. Because its the suprises that makes everything fun. It makes living life a big challenge. You might now be lifting safe, but more safe than i do. I like the thrill. The excitmement of seeing how far i can push my body. Thats a challenge to me that i know many people have trouble with and crumble under that pressure. Im use to it. I hate getting under 450-500lbs on the squat. But i do it and i look back and say "how to F did i do that". and thats the thing that suprises you. I never KNEW/ NEVER knew i would squat 500 today. I never actually thought i would ever squat that. Its been an amazing journey.

And the best thing about this is that i know i have many weaknesses, and im going to improve. But im not just stopping and saying "500is good ,,im done" Im saying its over with right now. Tomorrow is the next day. And to be honest i still am not sure what im going to do for programming. Ive been reading all day about westside methods, ect.. smolov, my methods, my experiences. And im still not sure. Theres so many different methods out there.

The important thing here is bringing up your weaknesses while still pressing forward. If you were GMing the weight up from the squat, I'd tell you to drop the weight, but you aren't. You're still staying strong through 98.5% of the lift. I had some shoulder pain Monday during overhead presses, but I know that stems from me needing to add some extra rowing/pulling. I didn't cut my press loading, but I increased what I did on prone row and added face pulls to my pull routine yesterday. So while there's a degree of taking it safe (mostly via programming in a way that targets weaknesses) I'm still attempting to push forward. Now there are some lifts I'm not all that comfortable with (snatch, snatch, and did I mention snatch?) and that are limited by my shoulder (I don't think I need to repeat myself on what lift), so the weight remains lower until my technique improves. My biggest problem on the snatch is that I don't finish at the top (i.e., I don't pop the shrug enough), so subsequent blocks will involve snatch grip shrugs and snatch grip pulls to work on the other portions of the lift. Recognizing my weaknesses and targeting them. Now, squats, I don't have as many problems, so I'm more liberal with the loading and hit my assistance work on the side.

And there are a lot of programs out there. It's about incorporating the correct ideas and the ideas that aid you in your sport of choice. Individualized training. ;)

So i honestly think that your method is something i might incorporate. Maybe set instead of daily "I PLANS" to monthly "I PLAN".. for example. i plan on hitting 545 squat by April 1st. Something like that. And program accordingly. But we will see. Im still so clusterf'ed about all these methods and things people have been saying. If i could have 1 thing, it would be someone who tells me what to do for the best results. Who knows what they are doing and guides me. I do the work right. andi do it good. i just have trouble following things and my methods usually change a lot. thats why i have 5 program outlines on my log. I change a lot. That could also be muscle confusion considering the gains ive made. Ive squatted everday, but ive done deadlift. then i disclude them. I started doing Zerchers, then stopped. Stopped doing accesssory exercises. And im so confused right now. Im still progressing and thats all that matters. At the same time i still don't know where my life is going. Im not committed to a University. I still have to go through community college for 2 years then transfer to a college. Im horrible in school. And i hate it. Honestly. Its worse than being a garbage man. I would rather be a garbage man. But the kind of lifestyle i want to live doesn't really support that money and other things. i also want to be recognized someday. Not just some scum that lives a bad life.

Or just a normal life. I want something special. Life is plain to me and to live it just like everyone else does seems cyclical and id rather make a name for myself. no matter what i do or what the consequences are. Im going off right now. Sorry. But anyways. Let me know what you think of my thoughts... its funny cuz at first i was like "damn" why would he write that much. And i wrote just as more. lol

I get you, man. That's why I work where I work--I was given a little too much to waste it. I've never been the best athlete, but dang it, I can train them. So I train them. You might not like school, but you might excel at a sport or a specific class in college, so you go down that path and try to make a name for yourself. I've been in class with a lot of people who don't have drive (I could tell stories for days...), yet they want to become DPTs. They're never going to be DPTs, though, because physical therapy programs require tenacity and motivation. So they end up with bachelor's in exercise science working at McDonald's because they didn't have the drive to push themselves. I don't want to be some Joe working at McDonald's and I know you don't either.

I guess my best advice would be: Milk the "green" gains and genetics for all they're worth. For strength, you can pick up programs like 5x5 or West Side for Skinny...fellas, but as you progress, you don't want to neglect power, agility, and special endurance either. I say special, because endurance is sport-specific. You won't need the same endurance to run a marathon that you would to play soccer that you would to play football that you would to compete in strongman that you would...Multilateral development is what I'm getting at. There's no reason you can't get strong while incorporating those other aspects though. :) I guess the best analogy I've heard on this is to think of training like a stove. One or two eyes are on moderate-high. One or two eyes are on low, and one or two are on simmer. That way, nothing is ever left completely off, but you're able to put your main focus into other attributes. General explanation of the analogy, but hopefully you see what I'm getting at.
 
Now we're getting somewhere...



You have some understanding of periodizing and didn't even know it. Haha. We focus on specific traits at specific times. For young athletes, it's mostly motor patterning and strength increases, but as training goes on, it becomes more diverse but focused. We'll save that discussion for another time, though.



No, I understand, and I think maybe there was a misunderstanding as far as the methodology I was talking about (whether I just didn't explain well or what, I don't know). Anyway, maybe it seemed like I was saying never push it; just the opposite is true, though. I do push myself and our athletes push themselves. Not every day and not every week (recovery is important), but if I'm on an 85%, for instance, and it's too light, I'll add weight (2.5-5kg most of the time). I did that last night with HDL. I was scheduled to do 160 for 3x5, but when I did it, I thought, Man, that's super light. So I went to 165, then 170. And 170 still felt a little low, but I figured I would save it for next week's 3x10s. Similarly, one of our skellies was 3x3 squatting Monday and asked me what weight she should use. She told me she had done 3x5 front squats with ~70kg two weeks prior. I told her 90-95kg and she got wide eyed and said, "I've never squatted that much." She warmed up, put 95 on, and hit it.

Point is, I still take into account how something feels in deciding the loading for the day. I'm not setting a new rep-max every day, but I'm not dilly dallying in the weight room either. If it's too light for the day's percentage, I go up. If I know it's too heavy, I drop it by a few kg. And on 90-95% days, I'll probably push it an extra bit to see how I'm doing. Did that on bench last block. It's one of my weaker lifts (in the past, I've only gotten 90kg for like 3 reps fresh), but I was at the end of my block and said, "Eh, why not." I had already done several work sets, but I threw 92.5 on there and hit 4 (I should have hit 5, but that's another story). Is that impressive? Not really. Is that progress? Definitely.



The important thing here is bringing up your weaknesses while still pressing forward. If you were GMing the weight up from the squat, I'd tell you to drop the weight, but you aren't. You're still staying strong through 98.5% of the lift. I had some shoulder pain Monday during overhead presses, but I know that stems from me needing to add some extra rowing/pulling. I didn't cut my press loading, but I increased what I did on prone row and added face pulls to my pull routine yesterday. So while there's a degree of taking it safe (mostly via programming in a way that targets weaknesses) I'm still attempting to push forward. Now there are some lifts I'm not all that comfortable with (snatch, snatch, and did I mention snatch?) and that are limited by my shoulder (I don't think I need to repeat myself on what lift), so the weight remains lower until my technique improves. My biggest problem on the snatch is that I don't finish at the top (i.e., I don't pop the shrug enough), so subsequent blocks will involve snatch grip shrugs and snatch grip pulls to work on the other portions of the lift. Recognizing my weaknesses and targeting them. Now, squats, I don't have as many problems, so I'm more liberal with the loading and hit my assistance work on the side.

And there are a lot of programs out there. It's about incorporating the correct ideas and the ideas that aid you in your sport of choice. Individualized training. ;)



I get you, man. That's why I work where I work--I was given a little too much to waste it. I've never been the best athlete, but dang it, I can train them. So I train them. You might not like school, but you might excel at a sport or a specific class in college, so you go down that path and try to make a name for yourself. I've been in class with a lot of people who don't have drive (I could tell stories for days...), yet they want to become DPTs. They're never going to be DPTs, though, because physical therapy programs require tenacity and motivation. So they end up with bachelor's in exercise science working at McDonald's because they didn't have the drive to push themselves. I don't want to be some Joe working at McDonald's and I know you don't either.

I guess my best advice would be: Milk the "green" gains and genetics for all they're worth. For strength, you can pick up programs like 5x5 or West Side for Skinny...fellas, but as you progress, you don't want to neglect power, agility, and special endurance either. I say special, because endurance is sport-specific. You won't need the same endurance to run a marathon that you would to play soccer that you would to play football that you would to compete in strongman that you would...Multilateral development is what I'm getting at. There's no reason you can't get strong while incorporating those other aspects though. :) I guess the best analogy I've heard on this is to think of training like a stove. One or two eyes are on moderate-high. One or two eyes are on low, and one or two are on simmer. That way, nothing is ever left completely off, but you're able to put your main focus into other attributes. General explanation of the analogy, but hopefully you see what I'm getting at.
aa.. nice post. Yes. i agree 100% with you. I love it how we share the same viewpoint in that when you start doing something, it might not turn out perfect, but that how you learn. even if it did turn out perfect, you could have changed something ro done something you never have done that could have made it better/given you a better result. I usually start a program and adjust as i go forward, but like i said. My weakness is being impatient. And i really do agree with you that athletes who try to push to far too soon burn out and the guys who are being patient and taking their time to get to their goals are the real successful ones. Im going to incorporate a lot of what u said. But at the same time, its tough. I guess im going to try to stick to a program. Its not just about being impatient. Its that i want something so bad, im not one of those people who burn out. I will burn out and drag myself through the dirt to get to where i want to be. nice post. and yes. being well rounded. even if you average at one area is the best way to be. you never want to shut down something.
 
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